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Old
02-24-2009, 10:23 AM
  #26
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
we did get a real system, that works, but not a real system that gets the most out of your players.
Debatable.

What is the most out of a 35 year old Naslund?

What is the most out of a Redden who's been declining for years?

What is the most out Voros?

What is the most out of young guys who have no track record really like Dubinsky, Dawes and Callahan?

Until a recent cold spell, Zherdev was on pace for his best season yet.

Michal Rozsival is on pace for an average Rozsival season.

Gomez is 10 points off the pace to match last year's production.

Drury is 7 points off last year's total.

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02-24-2009, 10:25 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I do somewhat agree about the system. I agree it works, but could be better. I also believe, however, that the players within the system, including Drury and others, could have performed better within that system. I mean no system in the world that's a defensive system gives up 14 shorthanded goals. I just don't know how that's not 100% on the players. If they had given up 1/2 of that amount, this team would be a few points higher in the standings and have a better psyche (how demoralizing is it to go out there and have a shortied scored upon you...again? It's gotta put a dent into their confidence and affect their next PP opportunity).
I agree, and I am not exonerating the players at all either. They are at fault as well. Especially for giving up the shorties.

I am just tired of hearing how Renney was is this great coach, and how the Rangers problems were all Sather and the players themselves but has nothing to do w/ the coach.

Sather is the biggest culprit and the biggest problem, but Renneys handling of personell and his strategies isn't that far behind, and the players themselves I think are third when looking at whose fault it is.

I honestly think that we will start seeing Drury and Gomez putting up some better #'s, and the team playing w/ more spirit and heart now that Renney is gone.

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02-24-2009, 10:27 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ImmortalRanger View Post
Did someone just call SUTTER a good coach? dear god......
Uhhhmmm, perhaps you haven't noticed that his team is in first place despite the fact that their all-world goalie has been out all season? Why the hell wouldn't anyone think he's a good coach?

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02-24-2009, 10:30 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
and maybe playing hockey just stopped being enjoyable for the players because of the system, and never being able to take any risks. Remember it is a job for them, and like any job you need to enjoy what you do to do it the best.

Drury came here w/ the promise of playing an uptempo game, same w/ gomez, naslund, zherdev etc.... Renney did not follow through on his promise, and made the game boring as hell w/ all defense all the time. Playing defense probably isn't the most enjoyable aspect of hockey, especially for offensive forwards who LOVE playing on the rush such as Gomez and Drury. Playing Renneys system was probably torture, and very well could have sucked the energy out of them.

Its no different than if your boss/teacher tells you he is going to do one thing and than does something completely different. It probably will piss you off, and get you down. Same thing happens to presidents, and world leaders. IF you say you are going to change something and don't follow through than people will be pissed. Renney promised change of pace, a fast attack team. he delivered a boring as hell, defensive minded, fall back style of hockey. I know if I was a player I wouldn't be all that thrilled of playing that style, if I was specifically told we were going to be fast paced when I got here.
This.

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02-24-2009, 10:32 AM
  #30
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Sml...

that is a great point, although I did state this: "This isn't a vet like Mess getting a coach fired, and even that's wrong". What Mess did was wrong, but at the same time, I can take it from Mess, who at the time had 5 Stanley Cups to his name, then 6, a bit more than I can take it from Drury, a support player throughout his career who's made a living off his reputation as a good soldier and hard worker.

clmets - Drury's an easy whipping boy because he spoke. Kudos for him for speaking the truth, which basically was a message to Renney saying don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out". I think I expected had hoped to see a captain that realized that he was part of the problem, as he admitted just last week, and talk about how the team gave up on their coach. I'm fine with him expressing excitement for a new beginning. But to say he needed a coaching change for him to play better? I don't care about what system he was in - he could've played better this season. It's weird how at times he played well within the system (when he played hard), but didn't play well within the system when he didn't play hard and was invisible. I think that's my problem with him at this moment.

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02-24-2009, 10:33 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post

Look around the league, how many teams are getting everything they can from every player?
Detroit, Devils, Sharks, Boston, Islanders, Washington, Vancouver, Columbus, Kings, Sabres just to name a few.

Conversely look around the league and tell me how many teams there are where it seems like the majority of players are underperforming as it does w/ the Rangers.

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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
But they didn't, no excuses Tortorella style, right?
But who is the coach who put the worst defensive line we had, for a defensive zone faceoff that cost us the game and series. Coaching mistakes like this kill. and it did. There is NO Excuse why we didn't have our best three defensive zone forwards on the ice for that faceoff.


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Couldn't be that Pittsburgh was the better team?
They couldv'e been. But our coach didn't get the most from our players, and was completely outcoached during that series. We'll never know.

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02-24-2009, 10:37 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
clmets - Drury's an easy whipping boy because he spoke. Kudos for him for speaking the truth, which basically was a message to Renney saying don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out". I think I expected had hoped to see a captain that realized that he was part of the problem, as he admitted just last week, and talk about how the team gave up on their coach. I'm fine with him expressing excitement for a new beginning. But to say he needed a coaching change for him to play better? I don't care about what system he was in - he could've played better this season. It's weird how at times he played well within the system (when he played hard), but didn't play well within the system when he didn't play hard and was invisible. I think that's my problem with him at this moment.
I agree that he could have taken a bit more responsibility (although who's to say he didn't and it simply didn't make it into the article?), but the bolded part is my problem with the attitude around here.

We're fans and we're frustrated, so we're going to throw the first guy we see under the bus, whether he deserves it or not. Sad, really.

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02-24-2009, 10:37 AM
  #33
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it is debateable, Singn'...

but you're missing one point, which everyone misses. We focus solely on offense. We focus on numbers because that's what is tangible to us. The real question, to which I do not know the answer, is how much production would you expect from those aforementioned players without slippage in defense? Five more goals for look pretty, but not if it's at the expense of six more goals against.

I think I'm pretty much done defending Renney, as well as criticizing Renney. I've done a fair amount of both (probably more criticizing). Most got their wish - a new coach. It's going to take a bit for him to implement his system, but I think we'll at least get a glimpse into what a yeller, screamer, disciplinarian-type can do with this team, which again, is something many like because, like goals, it's tangible. But it will still be tough to measure Torts v. Renney in the short run. If they start playing well, how much of that is attributed to a wakerup call as opposed to a system change, or a new guy at the helm. Who knows. Hopefully we can move on from this quickly.

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02-24-2009, 10:39 AM
  #34
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not throwing the first guy under the bus - we're talking about the voice of the players - the captain who's the leader. He's supposed to be the guy setting the example.

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02-24-2009, 10:40 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
but you're missing one point, which everyone misses. We focus solely on offense. We focus on numbers because that's what is tangible to us. The real question, to which I do not know the answer, is how much production would you expect from those aforementioned players without slippage in defense? Five more goals for look pretty, but not if it's at the expense of six more goals against.

I think I'm pretty much done defending Renney, as well as criticizing Renney. I've done a fair amount of both (probably more criticizing). Most got their wish - a new coach. It's going to take a bit for him to implement his system, but I think we'll at least get a glimpse into what a yeller, screamer, disciplinarian-type can do with this team, which again, is something many like because, like goals, it's tangible. But it will still be tough to measure Torts v. Renney in the short run. If they start playing well, how much of that is attributed to a wakerup call as opposed to a system change, or a new guy at the helm. Who knows. Hopefully we can move on from this quickly.
I'm focusing on offense because people talk about the lack of production being a product of Renney's system that was stifling the offense.

Look I keep going back to this summer when there were concerns that the scoring that the players who left provided was never fully replaced.

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02-24-2009, 10:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Detroit, Devils, Sharks, Boston, Islanders, Washington, Vancouver, Columbus, Kings, Sabres just to name a few.
Show me personnel on the Rangers that matches the all stars on those teams, minus the Islanders who dont belong on that list.

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Conversely look around the league and tell me how many teams there are where it seems like the majority of players are underperforming as it does w/ the Rangers.
Almost 20 teams below us in the standings.


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But who is the coach who put the worst defensive line we had, for a defensive zone faceoff that cost us the game and series. Coaching mistakes like this kill. and it did. There is NO Excuse why we didn't have our best three defensive zone forwards on the ice for that faceoff.
Even if that is Renney's mistake, thats one, i'm sure the players were flawless and had no problems beating them, Renney just got in the way


Quote:
They couldv'e been. But our coach didn't get the most from our players, and was completely outcoached during that series. We'll never know.
No we do know, Pens won, they were the better team.

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02-24-2009, 10:48 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm focusing on offense because people talk about the lack of production being a product of Renney's system that was stifling the offense.

Look I keep going back to this summer when there were concerns that the scoring that the players who left provided was never fully replaced.
But what about last season. Look who we had up front- Jagr, Shanny, Straka, Avery, Drury, and Gomez. why did this team have so much trouble scoring? There is no reason. Why were we so defensively oriented? There is no reason to be w/ that group of forwards and Lundy in net.

Why was cullen never used on the point on the PP two years ago where he is known to do great? This is a coaching problem.

Why do we use the 4th line for offensive zone draws w/ under 5 min left when we are losing? This is a coaching problem.

Why do we use our worst defensive line for a defensive zone draw under 5 min left when we are winning? This is a coaching problem.

This year I knew we were going to have some trouble putting up goals. But come on, we almost NEVER break the 2 goal mark. We consistently get out played, and we NEVER take any risks. Its like this team doesn't even try to score, they go into the offensive zone looking to play defense. That is on the coach.

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02-24-2009, 10:54 AM
  #38
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I know you were, Singn'. I re-read my post and was going to word it better, but am too lazy. I think what some fail to recognize is that the system is meant to be a balance because this team lacks real scoring talent and it still would like to win games - and that a game won 2-1 is just as good as a game won 4-3 or 4-1. I do need to add that I don't think the system called for 15 shots from the blue line per game either, which is an indication that the players aren't the types who can consistently get off the good shots from in close, and the playmakers aren't more than average.

I think you and I shared the same sentiment regarding the potential offense for this team at the beginning of the season. I warned about losing Jagr and making Gomez and Drury more a part of the forefront of the offense; I believe you argued that getting rid of Jagr was the first step to weaning the Rangers off Jagr, which was inevitable, and you were willing to take the pain associated with that.

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02-24-2009, 11:01 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Show me personnel on the Rangers that matches the all stars on those teams, minus the Islanders who dont belong on that list.
The isles definately belong on that list. They aren't very good, but they get the most out of their players night in and night out.

It doesn't make a difference about the stars on teams. All I am talking about is getting the most out of your players. Renney didn't do that at all w/ this team.

and again this team has not had 1 major injury to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Almost 20 teams below us in the standings.
it doesn't mean that teams aren't getting the most out of their players.

and again this team has not had 1 major injury to deal with. not many teams can say that they have had so few injuries to such important players as the Rangers.


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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Even if that is Renney's mistake, thats one, i'm sure the players were flawless and had no problems beating them, Renney just got in the way
that goal deflated the entire team, and undermined the PO's. We were going to have a lead against Buff.

but ok. so what is your reasoning for Renney never using Cullen on the point during the PP? you know the position where he excelled at, and where we needed help at. Or is that Cullens fault as well.


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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
No we do know, Pens won, they were the better team.
they were better coached. and better prepared. by the way we were 5-3 against them during the regular season. So how can you say that they were definately better? Thats including a 2-1 record against them after the TD. seems to me that we were pretty even against them. but we got outcoached during the PO's.

whos fault is is that Shanny and Drury were overused the ENTIRE season and looked tired during the second half the year, and PO's? you going to blame that on Shanny and Drury, who is just doing what the coach tells them to do?


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Old
02-24-2009, 11:06 AM
  #40
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Rags...

why is this team one of the best PK teams in the league?

Why has this team been one of the better goals against teams in the league the last few seasons?

I think we're also forgetting that Renney was the coach when Prucha scored 30 goals. He was also the coach when he scored 22 goals in a sophomore season taht saw his quality PP time decrease dramatically.

Voros had doubled his career goals by December.

Girardi scored 10 goals in the NHL last season...two more than his AHL career high, and two more than his OHL career high.

Rozy had 10 goals and 13 goals (and 8 this season); prior career high was 9 (followed by 4).

Shanny scored 29 goals as a 38 year old - despite getting bis head rocked and missing some time.

Cally's on pace for 14 ES goals - not too shabby for a guy many thought would be a 3/4 liner.

Drury had his third best season goal-scoring wise in his 9 year career, despite playing extensively with the rookie Dawes and the rookie Callahan.

Straka was left for dead, but was revived; ditto Nylander. Obviously Jagr had a lot to do with that, but why weren't these guys stifled in the system? I think it's because the coach had confidence in them to play their game, whereas with the others, he did not.

I get your point - and I don't totally disagree with it. But I can't sit here and say with a lot of confidence that the results would've been significantly better. I cannot say that there would be 20 more goals for and not 15-20 more goals against. I agree that a often times Renney has a strange sense for the word "balance", and that his lineups made me scratch my head, and that his in-game coaching was not nearly as good as his preparation, but his strategy was to keep the team in the game, work hard and get the lucky bounce to win. With this crew, perhaps that's the right strategy. It does fall apart when they don't work hard, however. Perhaps Torts will make it easier - implement a system in which they do not have to work hard.

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02-24-2009, 11:07 AM
  #41
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I believe you argued that getting rid of Jagr was the first step to weaning the Rangers off Jagr, which was inevitable, and you were willing to take the pain associated with that.
That is where I was. And still am. I thought the team could take a step back this season. And I was prepared for that. But I thought they had to when compared to Pittsburgh and the (re)emergence of Philly, Washington and Montreal. I didn't feel that Jagr and Shanahan gave this team any better chance to win a playoff series against any of those teams.

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02-24-2009, 11:09 AM
  #42
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Well said Fletch.

Now what do you do if Torts puts Korps at Center?

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02-24-2009, 11:16 AM
  #43
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I'll cry, most likely!

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02-24-2009, 11:22 AM
  #44
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I cannot argue with that logic, Singn'. To me, at that time, it was about what it would've cost the Rangers ($, and just as important, term), as I wasn't 100% opposed to bringing back one or both because I wasn't ready to hand this team over to Gomez and Drury. Further, I gladly would've taken a Jagr at $7.5MM per season over Rissmiller + Redden and signed a guy like Commodore for Naslund's $4MM, to be honest, but again, I wouldn't be able to watch Jagr for 2-3 more seasons (and who knows if he would've taken that), so it probably was the right move at the time. I was also fine taking a step back - just wasn't sure this was the group that I'd take a step back with.

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02-24-2009, 11:22 AM
  #45
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I stick by my original statement: **** Drury. And **** the rest of the players if they were struggling because they "weren't having fun" or some other totally ******** excuse. There have been fantastic teams--dynasties in fact--throughout every major professional sport that played styles that were "boring" or "not fun" for the players.

You know what makes the game a lot more fun? WINNING. If the reason our players have been sucking ass is that they weren't happy in Renney's system, then **** all of them. They're professional athletes for Christ's sake. I'm plenty sympathetic to people being unhappy with their job, but you still do your ******* job. I've had jobs before where I was unhappy, but I didn't mail it in. You keep working as hard as possible because you have some modicum of pride and respect for the job that you do.

**** Chris Drury, **** anyone else on our team that places the blame on anyone but themselves. Rarely do I become angered by players on my favorite teams, but ****, this is nonsense.

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02-24-2009, 11:24 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I cannot argue with that logic, Singn'. To me, at that time, it was about what it would've cost the Rangers ($, and just as important, term), as I wasn't 100% opposed to bringing back one or both because I wasn't ready to hand this team over to Gomez and Drury. Further, I gladly would've taken a Jagr at $7.5MM per season over Rissmiller + Redden and signed a guy like Commodore for Naslund's $4MM, to be honest, but again, I wouldn't be able to watch Jagr for 2-3 more seasons (and who knows if he would've taken that), so it probably was the right move at the time. I was also fine taking a step back - just wasn't sure this was the group that I'd take a step back with.
I can't condone the spending habits from last summer. But I agreed with the direction.

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02-24-2009, 11:24 AM
  #47
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Drury never even remotely fitted into Renney's system. He is not a center who can go deep and take the puck up ice.

We just commited a major misstake in that aspect.

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02-24-2009, 11:28 AM
  #48
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i think it is ridiculous how everybody was calling for Renney's head, and now that it happened so many feel guilty and are all of the sudden pro-renney. (yes, i know there are people here who supported him all along, but i bet there are A LOT of flip-floppers as well)

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02-24-2009, 11:28 AM
  #49
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You know Fletch, I take all this with a grain of salt, because you're never going to get straight answers out of hockey players. It's generations of saying the same PC crap whenever they stick a mic in their face. I will say this, there has to be a fair amount of lockerroom politics going on right now. Chris Drury is the captain of the team, he's the guy they're going to interview. Now if you're the captain of the team, and say, 75% of the team wants him gone and tells you so because you're the captain and the go between from the guys to the coach, what do you do? Do you support the coach? Because if you do, then you've probably lost the players the same way the coach did. So when they interview you, regardless of whether you loved Renney or hated him, what do you say? WHatever you say isn't getting Renney his job back, so there's really only one answer. You state the obvious... it was time for a change. No kidding. Because if you don't then you just hamstringed most of the guys on the team who did believe that, you backstabbed your GM who you still work for, and you get off on the wrong foot with the new coach, which is a bad spot to be no matter who you are. SO I really am not even fazed by Drury's comment. It's a tough spot to be in, and you just have to make the best of the situation. It's a poker face, it doesn't mean a thing and i'm not going to judge the guy based on it.

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02-24-2009, 11:30 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
why is this team one of the best PK teams in the league?
I will give him credit for that. he and Polino have done a great job here.

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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Why has this team been one of the better goals against teams in the league the last few seasons?
Good defensive strategy, and a great goaltender tend to do that. But yes Renney deserves credit here as well. But at what cost to offense and a better team is what I question.

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I think we're also forgetting that Renney was the coach when Prucha scored 30 goals. He was also the coach when he scored 22 goals in a sophomore season taht saw his quality PP time decrease dramatically.
And that is the problem, He doesn't play players to their strengths. he doesn't mold gameplans around players. He tries to Jam players in a gameplan. There was absolutely no reason for Prucha to lose all PP time. None. and I am not a prucha defender.

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Voros had doubled his career goals by December.
And he has done nothing else since the first 9 games of the season. Ever hear of luck. Renney had Nothing to do w/ voros scoring, besides actually giving him a shot. Now Voros has sucked for 4 months yet still plays alot and is more of a detriment to the team than help. Wanna give renney credit for his horrible play as well? I'm not giving renney any credit for him scoring, nor am i detracting renney for Voros' bad play b/c that is what voros is. I am going to detract renney for playing him so god damn much though.

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Girardi scored 10 goals in the NHL last season...two more than his AHL career high, and two more than his OHL career high..
we have no other NHL coach to compare him too. If Girardi pots 15 next year will you say that Renney held him back? This is inconclusive at best. Again Girardi has done nothing offensively since the beginning of the year as well, and his defense has gotten worse. Give Renney credit for that as well i guess.

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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Rozy had 10 goals and 13 goals (and 8 this season); prior career high was 9 (followed by 4).
Wasn't he always plagued by injuries. Plus he was just entering his prime. Add on top of that getting top PP minutes (which I don't believe he ever got), and playing w/ Jagr and its not hard to figure out why his #'s are up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Shanny scored 29 goals as a 38 year old - despite getting bis head rocked and missing some time.
Again, Renney also wore him out by playing him way too much. Shanny also is a HOF, who did things his way b/c he knows how to play, and has played his style for his career. And b/c renney overused him he was basically invisible during the second half and PO's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Cally's on pace for 14 ES goals - not too shabby for a guy many thought would be a 3/4 liner.
he is a second year player. We expect his #'s to go up, and not down. Cally has a very good work ethic that he brought to the NHL. Lets see how much he can score playing for an offensive minded coach. If he starts scoring alot more will you change your tune to Renney was holding him back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Drury had his third best season goal-scoring wise in his 9 year career, despite playing extensively with the rookie Dawes and the rookie Callahan.
And this is renney how? Especially when the rest of the team was having scoring problems, and Jagr having a career low. Wanna give that credit to Renney? Also half his goals came on the PP when he was not playing w/ Rookies. In fact exactly half his points came on the PP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Straka was left for dead, but was revived; ditto Nylander. Obviously Jagr had a lot to do with that, but why weren't these guys stifled in the system? I think it's because the coach had confidence in them to play their game, whereas with the others, he did not.
You are kidding right? Nylander and Straka battled injuries for most of their careers, that is why teams didn't pick them up. Both were very talented players. Renney had absolutely nothing to do w/ their health. Both stayed healthy and was able to basically put up what they should have put up comparing them their past. the only big difference was they were healthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I get your point - and I don't totally disagree with it. But I can't sit here and say with a lot of confidence that the results would've been significantly better. I cannot say that there would be 20 more goals for and not 15-20 more goals against. I agree that a often times Renney has a strange sense for the word "balance", and that his lineups made me scratch my head, and that his in-game coaching was not nearly as good as his preparation, but his strategy was to keep the team in the game, work hard and get the lucky bounce to win. With this crew, perhaps that's the right strategy. It does fall apart when they don't work hard, however. Perhaps Torts will make it easier - implement a system in which they do not have to work hard.
Listen if we play more aggressive under Renney and score say 20 goals, but conversely give up 19 more we are still 1 goal better off than we were previously. He didn't play players to their strengths, and tried to jame them into what he wanted them to be, and not what they are.

he had a good strategy, and would have been the uber coach in the old NHL or clutching and grabbing. But this game is built on speed and attacking now, and he never embraced it. he was too passive, and defensive minded. I'm glad he is gone, and look forward to the new regime, and by the sound of some key players on the Rangers so are they. To me our future just got brighter.

Now if only that bumbling idiot in Sather gets canned.

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