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Old
02-24-2009, 12:39 PM
  #76
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Good stuff Boom Boom

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02-24-2009, 12:42 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
You know, a lot of people assumed this team would struggle scoring goals this season...

A lot of people thought that replacing Jagr/Straka/Shanny/Avery with Voros/Rissmiller/Naslund/Zherdev wouldn't have positive results.

Even last season, with 2 600+ goal scorers, there were plenty of games where we couldn't muster up enough offense.

It's no surprise we struggled offensively. Not too me, anyway.

As an avid poster on the Rangers board, I recall numerous people saying things like "This team might take a step back this season with the moves Sather forced". They were correct.

The changes Sather made is what ultimately set this team up for failure. Scotty Bowman behind our Bench would struggle finding consistent offense with the group of players Sather has assembled.

Renney's no fool. He played, and coached this team to their strengths. But that's where the real joke is. This current team, can't even excel in the little areas of the game.

The Jed Ortymeyer's, Steve Rucchin's, Dominic Moore's, and Ryan ****ing Hollweg's were capable of playing a simple, countering system that rewarded attention to detail. Yet their better replacements couldn't.

Sather set Renney up for failure. Can you guys imagine your boss doing the same? And then firing you? It's hard to make Peanut Butter with Almonds. I don't give a damn how hard you try.

I think a lot of people expecting Torts to turn this ship around, are in for a rude awakening.

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Old
02-24-2009, 12:42 PM
  #78
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As of now, from my point of view, the leadership void left by the departures of Jagr, Straka, Shanahan and even Avery to an extent (though his is more of firing up/energizing type rather than giving direction) has yet to be filled. Now it's still possible that Drury & Gomez mature into this role as the roster and playing style suit them better, but if that doesn't happen the team might have to bring some veteran players strong in leadership (and probably vocal to contrast Drury who is more of an "on the ice" type) in through free agency or trade. If they can clear cap room. I think it was naive of me to think players would look at Gomez & Drury the same way they would Shanahan and Jagr. Players need to earn the respect of their peers and Gomez & Drury haven't produced enough this season to really command that type of attention.

That quote from Sather makes Avery sound like a sure thing. Will he respect the leadership on this current Rangers team now? He sure didn't listen to anyone in Dallas.

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02-24-2009, 12:54 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I don't think Mess' comments regarding Neilson's and Campbell's systems are necessarily hypocritical. Perhaps we're talking about two different teams with different sets of players and the system better-suited one group of players at one time over another group. Remember that 1997 team. Landgon was on a checking line with Graves. You had a bunch of injuries (Kovalev had been out since January and remained out). They were lucky to hobble into Philly.


I know the squads were different, I was talking more about the way Mess handled them. He was never in favor of a reserved game, but Campbell had a more calming effect on Mess to try and convince him to adjust. It's obvious he respected Soupy a lot more. I don't know if it's because he played against Nielson's goon Vancouver teams or played with Soupy in Edmonton, but whatever the case was, Messier complained to Neil Smith a lot about Roger and I think he gets credit for doing that when in reality it's kind of a messed up thing to do.

But I guess all is fain in war and hockey.

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02-24-2009, 01:11 PM
  #80
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Apparently none of you have every played hockey for a coach that destroyed your confidence. Drury is a great player having a terrible year. I truly believe Renney's system slowly choked the confidence out of these guys. And let me also say that I loved Tom Renney, Class act, playoff wins, franchise respectability, all came from Tom and Jags, but like a few have mentioned, Renny's system needs that Jagr like stud on offense if your going to force everyone else to play D. Once Jags was gone the defensive system worked nicely at first but slowly the guys lost confidence as only 1 or 2 goals were being scored per game. The only guys benched this season have been guys that got a little too creative for renney's taste and abandoned a strictly defense approach (excluding voros). Long Story short, Redden, Naslund, Drury, Gomez, Zherdev, have all excelled offensivly in other systems, add to that the fact that Dubinsky, Rosival and Prucha all contributed offensively as well when playing as part of a unit of 5 with Jagr on the ice at diffrent times (when the focus on D was overlooked). Sure jagr made them look better, but I also believe that Jagrs presence on the ice was a ticket for his linemates to go for it. Maybe the guys will be allowed to go for it now, maybe they will earn their paycheck...optomistic, yes, but I just cant convince myself that all of the sudden 5-6 really good offensive players all the sudden forgot how to play hockey

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Old
02-24-2009, 01:14 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by NYR94 View Post
As of now, from my point of view, the leadership void left by the departures of Jagr, Straka, Shanahan and even Avery to an extent (though his is more of firing up/energizing type rather than giving direction) has yet to be filled. Now it's still possible that Drury & Gomez mature into this role as the roster and playing style suit them better, but if that doesn't happen the team might have to bring some veteran players strong in leadership (and probably vocal to contrast Drury who is more of an "on the ice" type) in through free agency or trade. If they can clear cap room. I think it was naive of me to think players would look at Gomez & Drury the same way they would Shanahan and Jagr. Players need to earn the respect of their peers and Gomez & Drury haven't produced enough this season to really command that type of attention.

That quote from Sather makes Avery sound like a sure thing. Will he respect the leadership on this current Rangers team now? He sure didn't listen to anyone in Dallas.
I know this may sound a little absurd, but in my opinion, leadership is a little overrated. I don't think more leadership on this team compensates the lack of talent.

Messier's great leadership skills didn't earn Vancouver a Cup. Messier's great leadership skills didn't reward us with another Cup his second go-round.

At the end of the day, we're a less talented team than our rivals, and that's where I think the real problem lies.

Talent. Gifted, exceptional players. Drury and Gomez are good hockey players. Very good, if you put them in a situation where they can thrive. But much like our former coach, Sather hasn't done his job to equip these players with the tools they need to succeed. Realistically, he can't. Not the with contracts he signed them too.

If this was Nascar, our Ford (Or Chevy, or whatever they race) is loaded with a nice V-6... But we're competing against V-8's.

The fact that other teams V-8's cost less than our V-6's, is exactly what's wrong with this team.

Leadership won't fix that. Neither will a new coach. But stranger things have happened, so let's hope Sather's newest gamble does a good job shadowing the demented decisions he's blessed us with.

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02-24-2009, 01:16 PM
  #82
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I think he respected Colie more than Roger because one was a pushover and the other was not.

Boom Boom - I don't disagree with your post, but don't forget that to make the 8th playoff spot a team doesn't need to be great - just better than other mediocre teams, so don't be surprised if this team does make it to the playoffs (they ain't out yet, and weren't out under Renney). And for those who think this team cannot do anything in the playoffs, I tend to agree, although if they did make it, I wouldn't be surprised to see them win a round - a hot streak can win a round for an average team - odds are the lack of talent catches up it each round gets more difficult.

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Old
02-24-2009, 01:44 PM
  #83
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Renney's no fool. He played, and coached this team to their strengths. But that's where the real joke is. This current team, can't even excel in the little areas of the game.

The Jed Ortymeyer's, Steve Rucchin's, Dominic Moore's, and Ryan ****ing Hollweg's were capable of playing a simple, countering system that rewarded attention to detail. Yet their better replacements couldn't
The counter to this argument is that the new players may not have the same strengths as the old players, and Renney actually didn't play to their strengths and instead tried to treat them as the players they replaced.

Don't know that I believe that, but I don't think Sather really just set Renney up for failure (at least in the way people have been saying), especially considering we have heard that Renney had input on who to sign.

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Old
02-24-2009, 01:59 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
If our players need motivation from a coach to play with any semblance of passion and desire, then we have far larger problems than the coach himself.
I'm not going to ask you the "have you ever played a team sport" question because I'm assuming you have. I'll just say that you are delusional if you think that the head coach (you know, the guy that designs the system, plays certain guys, takes responsibility for the game plan and preparation) doesn't need to motivate his players.

I'm not referring to Messier-like oratory. I'm talking about being in that locker room as a player and feeling good about the strategy, decisions, and overall direction your coach is taking you in. I'm talking about morale. Stop being a Renney apologist and start realizing that almost EVERYTHING needs to be fixed. This was just the most practical solution.

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Old
02-24-2009, 02:01 PM
  #85
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Just another reason why I can't stand Drury.

Did you see the on camera interview about the firing? They should have checked him for a pulse. What a waste.

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02-24-2009, 02:03 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by hightide85 View Post
Just another reason why I can't stand Drury.

Did you see the on camera interview about the firing? They should have checked him for a pulse. What a waste.
It looked like he had either just rolled out of bed or was stoned out of his mind.
This guy has become unbelievably irritating.
His constant nonchalance is a disgrace to the logo.

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02-24-2009, 02:21 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by BringUpBobby View Post
I'm not going to ask you the "have you ever played a team sport" question because I'm assuming you have. I'll just say that you are delusional if you think that the head coach (you know, the guy that designs the system, plays certain guys, takes responsibility for the game plan and preparation) doesn't need to motivate his players.

I'm not referring to Messier-like oratory. I'm talking about being in that locker room as a player and feeling good about the strategy, decisions, and overall direction your coach is taking you in. I'm talking about morale. Stop being a Renney apologist and start realizing that almost EVERYTHING needs to be fixed. This was just the most practical solution.
Man, for the last ****ing time--I accepted that firing Renney was something that needed to happen. I'm not a Renney apologist, either. I've been one of his most vocal critics over the years when it comes to his lineup decisions and hesitance to bench certain players.

This isn't about me being angry about Renney being the fall guy, again for the thousandth time. It's about me being pissed at the players for failing to pull it together and acting like a bunch of little girls. Yes I played team sports, and I played for some incompetent coaches that were roundly ignored by the team. What did we do? We pulled our **** together and did the absolute best that we could, because that was how we played. These players on our team seem to be looking for excuses.

EDIT: I'm sorry for being short with you, I'm just generally pissed off (sports and otherwise).

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Old
02-24-2009, 03:54 PM
  #88
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It's all good, your point is well-taken. Not saying you are one at this point but let's all hope that for this team's sake, the Renney apologist is absolutely wrong.

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02-24-2009, 04:02 PM
  #89
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It's all good, your point is well-taken. Not saying you are one at this point but let's all hope that for this team's sake, the Renney apologist is absolutely wrong.
I hope to death that I'm wrong. I'm hoping and praying that Tortorella is able to turn this ship around and get us going again. And believe me, if it happens, I'll be the first one to admit that I was wrong!

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02-24-2009, 04:04 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
Apparently none of you have every played hockey for a coach that destroyed your confidence. Drury is a great player having a terrible year. I truly believe Renney's system slowly choked the confidence out of these guys. And let me also say that I loved Tom Renney, Class act, playoff wins, franchise respectability, all came from Tom and Jags, but like a few have mentioned, Renny's system needs that Jagr like stud on offense if your going to force everyone else to play D. Once Jags was gone the defensive system worked nicely at first but slowly the guys lost confidence as only 1 or 2 goals were being scored per game. The only guys benched this season have been guys that got a little too creative for renney's taste and abandoned a strictly defense approach (excluding voros). Long Story short, Redden, Naslund, Drury, Gomez, Zherdev, have all excelled offensivly in other systems, add to that the fact that Dubinsky, Rosival and Prucha all contributed offensively as well when playing as part of a unit of 5 with Jagr on the ice at diffrent times (when the focus on D was overlooked). Sure jagr made them look better, but I also believe that Jagrs presence on the ice was a ticket for his linemates to go for it. Maybe the guys will be allowed to go for it now, maybe they will earn their paycheck...optomistic, yes, but I just cant convince myself that all of the sudden 5-6 really good offensive players all the sudden forgot how to play hockey
I hear what you are saying....but the season started with uptempo N/S hockey.

As for Drury....I always have had issues with the guy...
Last year it was "Jagr's fault". Drury couldn't perform in "his style" of hockey. So he's gone.
Now it's "Renney's fault" and now he's gone.

My question is when will it be Drury's fault?

Drury came to play for the Rangers, and not the other way around. He needs to show good hockey on the ice regardless of the system....sure in a bad system his stats will suffer, but not his impact....or at least the little things...like faceoffs...

Nothing in Renney's coaching system could cause Drury to be #3 in faceoffs on the team at 49.5%. Heck Gomez takes and wins more faceoffs than Drury.

If he can't hack it...he should give up the C....drop down to a Mike Peca salary level and play a 3rd line checking center, then use the extra salary to get a real 1st/2nd line center. Of course this will never happen..but my 2 cents.

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02-24-2009, 04:18 PM
  #91
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Everyone says Drury is a born winner and has been everywhere he has gone. Well, he sucked in his year in Calgary and sulked until he left. We don't think too highly of him in Cowtown. He can never be the alphamale but rather the support player.


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Old
02-24-2009, 04:24 PM
  #92
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Everyone says Drury is a born winner and has been everyone he has gone. Well, he sucked in his year in Calgary and sulked until he left. We don't think too highly of him in Cowtown. He can never be the alphamale but rather the support player.
Agreed. That Avs team he won the cup on was stacked with leaders in front of him (Joe, Peter).

Drury is a leader? I think that's bull. When he was put in a legit leadership role he took his team to the ECF, but again had a great cast of players around him.

And don't give me no bull about the Little League World Series win, for all we know he was the ***** of the locker room.

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02-24-2009, 04:31 PM
  #93
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With all the talk of Drury being unfit for captaincy, you'd think a few of you were in the locker room. Because he doesn't give great interviews, he needs to be stripped of the C? Gimme a break.

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Old
02-24-2009, 04:46 PM
  #94
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give the whole team a break.. nobody is playing stellar... this coaching change is what we need. we need a coach that can point out our offensive threats which we all have and use them in the offensive zone. the whole season we dont setup anything offensively & mean the whole fking team. all the shot are from bad angles or outside. when was the last good score from the slot..... powerplay or not. this team has no offensive movement with the puck thru or in the zone. we just cant blame it on drury cus he wears the "c" , the whole team is slumping. when we are losing we all no it sucks, the players and the fans

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02-24-2009, 05:03 PM
  #95
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Agreed. That Avs team he won the cup on was stacked with leaders in front of him (Joe, Peter).

Drury is a leader? I think that's bull. When he was put in a legit leadership role he took his team to the ECF, but again had a great cast of players around him.

And don't give me no bull about the Little League World Series win, for all we know he was the ***** of the locker room.
So let me get this straight....you think he should have been leading that team? He was a rookie when they won the cup. I mean if you want to throw out his 4 years or so in Buffalo then I understand, but what do you expect from the guy when he is still a young maturing player? The guy was the leader of an entore organization. You dont have to go any further than to go back and read direct quotes from Lindy Ruff(who i very much respect as both a coach and a person) as to who the locker room was handed over to his last couple of seasons in Buffalo.

He is quiet, get over it. Not all leaders have to yell into the cameras when they are around or tell the fans everything that is going on behind closed doors in order to be a good leader. I know many people here want a captain like Avery who will just say anything that comes into his head and wears his emotions on his sleeve but in order to go far in this league you have to keep your emotions in check at times in order to pay attention to the smaller details and not get carried away.

But hey, if people want an Avery-type of captain, thats great, I, myself like the quiet captains like Sakic, Lidstrom and many others.

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02-24-2009, 05:07 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
So let me get this straight....you think he should have been leading that team? He was a rookie when they won the cup. I mean if you want to throw out his 4 years or so in Buffalo then I understand, but what do you expect from the guy when he is still a young maturing player? The guy was the leader of an entore organization. You dont have to go any further than to go back and read direct quotes from Lindy Ruff(who i very much respect as both a coach and a person) as to who the locker room was handed over to his last couple of seasons in Buffalo.

He is quiet, get over it. Not all leaders have to yell into the cameras when they are around or tell the fans everything that is going on behind closed doors in order to be a good leader. I know many people here want a captain like Avery who will just say anything that comes into his head and wears his emotions on his sleeve but in order to go far in this league you have to keep your emotions in check at times in order to pay attention to the smaller details and not get carried away.

But hey, if people want an Avery-type of captain, thats great, I, myself like the quiet captains like Sakic, Lidstrom and many others.
Ok no. But what I'm saying is when people go oh Drury is a proven winner I was just looking back and going through that Avs team and he probably didn't play a big part at all. And really that's the only place he's proven he's a winner.

Calm down.

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02-24-2009, 05:19 PM
  #97
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Ok no. But what I'm saying is when people go oh Drury is a proven winner I was just looking back and going through that Avs team and he probably didn't play a big part at all. And really that's the only place he's proven he's a winner.

Calm down.
I'm calm. While I agree they had a lot of verygod players on that team they still needed him to get a few GWG's on the way to winning that cup. The guy is known for raising his game to another level as the stakes raise.

The problem I have with people saying things like that is there are a TON of very good players who you can say the same thing about. Dominik Hasek, Brendan Shanahan, Teemu Selanne, Brett Hull just to name a few. There are obviously a ton but those are the first that came to mind.

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02-24-2009, 05:28 PM
  #98
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from today's Post

This is from today's Post (sorry there isn't a link - I still read the hard copy on the train, and sorry mods if this is somewhere else but I don't know which topic it would fall under and didn't go through all the threads).

Now, I'm thoroughly disgusted that it came down to the dismissal of Renney. This is a quote from the team's captain. People dispute whether or not us folks can determine who's a good captain and who's a bad captain since we're not in the room or on the ice. Honestly, if the captain, who happens to be a vet, states the following "we needed something just to get us to play better," then I have to question his attitude on the ice and off the ice. The players won this round. They got Renney fired, and man do I hate that. This isn't a vet like Mess getting a coach fired, and even that's wrong, this is Chris Drury, who has never been the "leader," but rather always part of a team, typically teams with leaders. "We needed something?" - how about better play from Drury - which he one day, after 55 or so games, readily admitted, although perhaps that was just window dressing and he was blaming the coach for the team's woes...the same coach who coached him in the prior season to the second round. Makes me miss Jagr and Shanny because if they were here, I wouldn't have heard a peep from Drury and Jagr especially was not above his coach (this latest rendition of Jagr). I hope Torts doesn't five Drury a long leash and gets that kid to play.

Another interesting note in the article: "John doesn't know Sean [Avery] the way we do," Sather said. "Over time, he'll learn to love him the way I have." - uh, is Avery now a Ranger - sure sounds like it...
What did you want him to say. Yeah, I thought the system was great.

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02-24-2009, 05:47 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigHockeyFan View Post
I hear what you are saying....but the season started with uptempo N/S hockey.

As for Drury....I always have had issues with the guy...
Last year it was "Jagr's fault". Drury couldn't perform in "his style" of hockey. So he's gone.
Now it's "Renney's fault" and now he's gone.

My question is when will it be Drury's fault?

Drury came to play for the Rangers, and not the other way around. He needs to show good hockey on the ice regardless of the system....sure in a bad system his stats will suffer, but not his impact....or at least the little things...like faceoffs...

Nothing in Renney's coaching system could cause Drury to be #3 in faceoffs on the team at 49.5%. Heck Gomez takes and wins more faceoffs than Drury.

If he can't hack it...he should give up the C....drop down to a Mike Peca salary level and play a 3rd line checking center, then use the extra salary to get a real 1st/2nd line center. Of course this will never happen..but my 2 cents.
If Drury continues to play the way he has this season, then yes, I'll agree with you 100%. I just find it so hard to believe that all these talented successful players all now suck...

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02-24-2009, 06:01 PM
  #100
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I'm calm. While I agree they had a lot of verygod players on that team they still needed him to get a few GWG's on the way to winning that cup. The guy is known for raising his game to another level as the stakes raise.

The problem I have with people saying things like that is there are a TON of very good players who you can say the same thing about. Dominik Hasek, Brendan Shanahan, Teemu Selanne, Brett Hull just to name a few. There are obviously a ton but those are the first that came to mind.
The problem I have with everyone always calling Drury a "natural winner" is that that criteria doesn't get applied to everyone else. Drury has 1 Stanley Cup in which he was a support player on possibly one of the most stacked teams in the past 30 years. Scott Gomez has 2 Stanley Cups in a situation where he was also a support player. Why doesn't everyone call Scott Gomez a "natural winner?" When you think of Scott Gomez is "natural winner" the first thing that comes to mind? No, but somehow with Drury everyone is obssesed with that term.

Jaromir Jagr won 2 Stanley Cups in which he was a star player and he and Mario carried the team to 2 championships. How come we don't call Jagr a "natural winner?" Or Hasek? Or any of the other hundreds of players who have won ONE or more championships? Why does this only get applied to Drury?

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