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Old
02-24-2009, 09:46 AM
  #51
bert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanky View Post
Spezza is completely ineffective on the wing.
Im curious as to how you know that... I have never seen him play wing.

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Old
02-24-2009, 09:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Then you're confused.

Compare the number of elite wingers in the game (Iginla, Kovulchuk, Heatley, Nash, Zetterberg, Gaborik?) to the number of elite centers (Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Spezza, Staal, Thorton, Savard, etc.)

Even if your center drops from 120-100 points, it's easier to find a 100 pt center than a 100 pt winger.
Malkin can play the wing and he is just better then Heatley.

But the original proposal doesnt make alot of sense for the sens.

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Old
02-24-2009, 09:58 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Then you're confused.

Compare the number of elite wingers in the game (Iginla, Kovulchuk, Heatley, Nash, Zetterberg, Gaborik?) to the number of elite centers (Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Spezza, Staal, Thorton, Savard, etc.)

Even if your center drops from 120-100 points, it's easier to find a 100 pt center than a 100 pt winger.
Listing Spezza and Staal in the same breath as Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Thornton and Savard is laughable. Spezza's not among those guys, he's put up great numbers because he plays with two great wingers. Take Spezza and Staal off that list and put Datsyuk and Getzlaf on it.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:19 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
Listing Spezza and Staal in the same breath as Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Thornton and Savard is laughable. Spezza's not among those guys, he's put up great numbers because he plays with two great wingers. Take Spezza and Staal off that list and put Datsyuk and Getzlaf on it.
I have no problem with including Getzlaf or Datsyuk, but you entirely missed my point.

Spezza, for all his flaws, is what? 24? He consistently puts up 1.3-1.4ppts per game, just because he's having a bad season doesn't change that. In any case, the point was only to establish that with elite wingers, there are more centers who can be a #1 center (which, Staal and Spezza are) than wingers who are a #1 RW or #1 LW *and* comparable to the centers.

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Old
02-24-2009, 08:43 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I have no problem with including Getzlaf or Datsyuk, but you entirely missed my point.

In any case, the point was only to establish that with elite wingers, there are more centers who can be a #1 center (which, Staal and Spezza are) than wingers who are a #1 RW or #1 LW *and* comparable to the centers.
What kind of trippy logic is that? The majority of the best forwards always played center. Its the position where you have the most impact and see more of the puck, so all the way from junior the most gifted players generally will gravitate towards that position.
Back in the days of Gretzky, Mario, Yzerman and all those guys, will you have us believe that the great - yet still inferior - talent playing wing was somehow more valuable because there weren't as many of them who were elite compared with the centers?

I mean, Ovechkin might well be the best player in hockey. That's arguably so. But that's because he brings so much more than 'just' a silly amount of goals. Heatley is not like that, and whereas he should be any discussion for best sniper, he is no where near a discussion for best or more important player/forward in the league.

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Old
02-24-2009, 09:59 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post


Personally from an Ottawa Standpoint why the Hell do we want to have two elite centers?

then what we play Neil on the wing?

Rather keep canada's best sniper

add to that Malkin doesnt even know what playing defense is :p

i would take Crosby or Ovy waaayyy before Malkin

and yes anyone would take Malkin over Heatley, but it is stupid to even think about it ok? Since it makes no sense for Ottawa
Are you serious? Let's ignore that he leads the league in points by a fair margin.

In comparison with Pavel Datsyuk (who has admittedly played two fewer games), the reigning Selke Winner:

Take-aways:
Malkin 75 (1st in NHL)
Datsyuk 67 (2nd in NHL)

Blocked Shots:
Malkin 31
Datsyuk 24

Hits:
Malkin 58
Datsyuk 57

I would without hesitation offer Heatley, Volchenkov and the Sens' 1st if the Pens were willing to move Malkin here.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:00 PM
  #57
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Heatley will never waive

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:04 PM
  #58
Asquaredx2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Then you're confused.

Compare the number of elite wingers in the game (Iginla, Kovulchuk, Heatley, Nash, Zetterberg, Gaborik?) to the number of elite centers (Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Spezza, Staal, Thorton, Savard, etc.)

Even if your center drops from 120-100 points, it's easier to find a 100 pt center than a 100 pt winger.
Heatley is 28, less productive and infrequently creates his own offence.

Malkin is 22, more productive and creates more offence even though he does not play with the same talent as Heatley does on a regular basis.

I'm a Sens fan. They aren't even close. Heatley's impact on a game is not remotely the same, even if his impact on the score-sheet might be (but isn't, currently). Heatley is a great complementary player. Malkin is a player you try to complement.

By the way, I think you may have forgotten someone in your list of elite wingers in the game.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:25 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
Are you serious? Let's ignore that he leads the league in points by a fair margin.

In comparison with Pavel Datsyuk (who has admittedly played two fewer games), the reigning Selke Winner:

Take-aways:
Malkin 75 (1st in NHL)
Datsyuk 67 (2nd in NHL)

Blocked Shots:
Malkin 31
Datsyuk 24

Hits:
Malkin 58
Datsyuk 57

Good stuff. Hadn't seen that Malkin had upped his takeaway rate that much, although now that you post it it makes alot of sense from having seen pretty much all his games.

Either way, he is obviously not in Selke contention yet. He still has too many giveaways (Datysuk is frankly ridiculous in that aspect), and too many of them are in the defensive zone where they tend to hurt. Not at all as many as some would have you believe though.

That's partly an experience matter as is his faceoff struggles.
The fact that you can easily put Malkin in the discussion for best player in the league right now, at the same time as he has areas of his game where he can obviously improve (he has been getting more and more physical this season also, imagine him at 210 pounds instead of 195)... and he is 22. He can be scary, scary good.

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Old
02-24-2009, 10:25 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post
add to that Malkin doesnt even know what playing defense is
This is the most ignorant statement I've read in a long while. Malkin is a beast defensively and if you haven't seen it, you've never watched.

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Old
02-25-2009, 01:12 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
What kind of trippy logic is that? The majority of the best forwards always played center. Its the position where you have the most impact and see more of the puck, so all the way from junior the most gifted players generally will gravitate towards that position.
Back in the days of Gretzky, Mario, Yzerman and all those guys, will you have us believe that the great - yet still inferior - talent playing wing was somehow more valuable because there weren't as many of them who were elite compared with the centers?

I mean, Ovechkin might well be the best player in hockey. That's arguably so. But that's because he brings so much more than 'just' a silly amount of goals. Heatley is not like that, and whereas he should be any discussion for best sniper, he is no where near a discussion for best or more important player/forward in the league.

It's not that they weren't more elite.

It's that Luc Robitaille played virtually his entire career for the L.A. Kings while Gretzky was traded and never came back.

Gretzky was the better player, by a WIDE margin (though I'm pretty sure Robitaille has the most points by a LW), yet he was traded.

Why?

Lots of reasons, but the Oilers had Messier. That was one of them.

I'm sure I could find a better example but it's 2am and I'm going to bed, the point is just wingers are more valuable. Ask Shero in Pittsburg.

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Old
02-25-2009, 01:12 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
Heatley is 28, less productive and infrequently creates his own offence.

Malkin is 22, more productive and creates more offence even though he does not play with the same talent as Heatley does on a regular basis.

I'm a Sens fan. They aren't even close. Heatley's impact on a game is not remotely the same, even if his impact on the score-sheet might be (but isn't, currently). Heatley is a great complementary player. Malkin is a player you try to complement.

By the way, I think you may have forgotten someone in your list of elite wingers in the game.
Haha, nah, AO isn't elite .

.

Anyway, oversight due to the paper I've been working on all evening. Sorry.

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Old
02-25-2009, 01:20 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
It's not that they weren't more elite.

It's that Luc Robitaille played virtually his entire career for the L.A. Kings while Gretzky was traded and never came back.

Gretzky was the better player, by a WIDE margin (though I'm pretty sure Robitaille has the most points by a LW), yet he was traded.

Why?

Lots of reasons, but the Oilers had Messier. That was one of them.

I'm sure I could find a better example but it's 2am and I'm going to bed, the point is just wingers are more valuable. Ask Shero in Pittsburg.
I think that is one of the worst excuses for an argument I have ever seen on these boards. But its late you say. You're excused .

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Old
02-25-2009, 01:34 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
I think that is one of the worst excuses for an argument I have ever seen on these boards. But its late you say. You're excused .
It's a compelling argument when articulated properly. You try writing a paper about public inquiries for a bridge week that nobody cares about, then argue something you also care little about .

Heatley won't be traded. Nor will Malkin. It's a moot point.

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Old
02-25-2009, 03:21 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
Then you're confused.

Compare the number of elite wingers in the game (Iginla, Kovulchuk, Heatley, Nash, Zetterberg, Gaborik?) to the number of elite centers (Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Spezza, Staal, Thorton, Savard, etc.)

Even if your center drops from 120-100 points, it's easier to find a 100 pt center than a 100 pt winger.
Iginla, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Nash, Zetterberg, Gaborik, Ovechkin, Hossa.....possible turn into elite (Vanek, Parise, Franzen)

point being there are alot of quality wingers out there just like centers

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Old
02-25-2009, 06:16 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post


Personally from an Ottawa Standpoint why the Hell do we want to have two elite centers?

then what we play Neil on the wing?

Rather keep canada's best sniper

add to that Malkin doesnt even know what playing defense is :p

i would take Crosby or Ovy waaayyy before Malkin

and yes anyone would take Malkin over Heatley, but it is stupid to even think about it ok? Since it makes no sense for Ottawa
Have you ever heard of thing called credibility?

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Old
02-25-2009, 07:22 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
Are you serious? Let's ignore that he leads the league in points by a fair margin.

In comparison with Pavel Datsyuk (who has admittedly played two fewer games), the reigning Selke Winner:

Take-aways:
Malkin 75 (1st in NHL)
Datsyuk 67 (2nd in NHL)

Blocked Shots:
Malkin 31
Datsyuk 24

Hits:
Malkin 58
Datsyuk 57

I would without hesitation offer Heatley, Volchenkov and the Sens' 1st if the Pens were willing to move Malkin here.
yes anyone would trade Heatley for Malkin that isnt the point

but looking at it in reality what would you rather have

Spezza
Malkin

or


Spezza - Heatley


It is really dumb to to have 2 elite centerman and ZERO wing men, it wont work, the centers can make the greatest passes ever to only have Kelly miss the wide open net, which is why Ottawa wouldn't trade Heatley for Malkin, you also have to look at the cap implecations, we are already tight and adding Malkin would just kill our cap and we will end up like the Penguins who are struggling even with Crosby and Malkin producing at their pretty much normal pace.

Players like Malkin are rare, but so are players like Heatley, and i just dont see a big enough difference from a 100 pt player and a 120pt player, to justify a trade like this from ottawa's perspective

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Old
02-25-2009, 07:32 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSF View Post
yes anyone would trade Heatley for Malkin that isnt the point

but looking at it in reality what would you rather have

Spezza
Malkin

or


Spezza - Heatley


It is really dumb to to have 2 elite centerman and ZERO wing men, it wont work, the centers can make the greatest passes ever to only have Kelly miss the wide open net, which is why Ottawa wouldn't trade Heatley for Malkin, you also have to look at the cap implecations, we are already tight and adding Malkin would just kill our cap and we will end up like the Penguins who are struggling even with Crosby and Malkin producing at their pretty much normal pace.

Players like Malkin are rare, but so are players like Heatley, and i just dont see a big enough difference from a 100 pt player and a 120pt player, to justify a trade like this from ottawa's perspective
Easy there buckaroo. All Asquared was saying is that you were completely wrong in saying that Malkin stinks at playing D. Nowhere in your above reply did you make any attempt to justify why you think that. It seems to be a new trend at HF to quote somebody and then rabble on about topics completely unrelated to the quote. cough cough ODDS!!

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Old
02-25-2009, 08:16 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by theboostking View Post
Easy there buckaroo. All Asquared was saying is that you were completely wrong in saying that Malkin stinks at playing D. Nowhere in your above reply did you make any attempt to justify why you think that. It seems to be a new trend at HF to quote somebody and then rabble on about topics completely unrelated to the quote. cough cough ODDS!!
i was talking about his "trade" idea

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Old
02-25-2009, 10:29 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Agreed, but I'm tempted because he is the winger I'd want for Crosby.


Add Spezza, Karlsson, and your 1st this year, then sure.
Wait? Did you ask for:

Heatley
Spezza
Karlsson
1st.


for Malkin

cmon now, that's ridiculous.

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Old
02-25-2009, 01:54 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommybishop71 View Post
Ryan Whitney
Jordan Staal

-for-

Dany Heatley

is it an over payment by Pittsburgh?? or not enough?

flame me, but be nice
Would be nice to get Staal and Whitney, but losing Heatley is impossible. You don't trade a 50 goals scorer, like you don't trade a Crosby and/or Malkin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Agreed, but I'm tempted because he is the winger I'd want for Crosby.


Add Spezza, Karlsson, and your 1st this year, then sure.
Heatley + Spezza + Karlsson + 2009 Ott's 1st for Malkin?

Malkin is a top-5 player in the world but comon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by spectraljulian View Post
Listing Spezza and Staal in the same breath as Malkin, Crosby, Lecavalier, Thornton and Savard is laughable. Spezza's not among those guys, he's put up great numbers because he plays with two great wingers. Take Spezza and Staal off that list and put Datsyuk and Getzlaf on it.
Same could be said about Savard in your list, unless you only look at this season where he is a + pt/game player

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