HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Duncan Keith to montreal

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-25-2009, 11:59 AM
  #76
matt trick
Registered User
 
matt trick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 7,795
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
I see you know very little about hockey then.
They are both top 10 d-men.

Maybe Duncan is a fluke, but going off play this year, he has been better than Markov. However, my team was on a PP, Markov would be my 1st choice.

matt trick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 12:18 PM
  #77
Ace88*
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Mississauga
Country: Italy
Posts: 517
vCash: 500
Perhaps Keith + Brouwer for the Brothers Kostitsyn?

Ace88* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 12:39 PM
  #78
oilerbear
Registered User
 
oilerbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
I see you know very little about hockey then.
Look at post #72 he chooses one of the 4 most complete dmen in the league. Over a dman who is one of the 9 Best offensive Dmen in the league. A list keith is obviosly also in. Factor in the cap hits. you are getting a Norris Dman with a cheap cheap contract.

Taser 19: Excluding Scientific numbers in your decision process? Well that is guessing. You watch the games and your mind tells you keith positionaly and play wise gets results. Looking at the stats tells you if what you are seeing is a lie. In Keith's case your guess was correct.

The aspects of the game are: Scoring even points, Scoring power play points, Preventing goals at even, and Preventign goals on the PP(PK). Taking a players results over the time they play says what they are doing.

Give you an example:
Main Stream media and fans say Kaberle and Phaneuf are great players.

I however Look at Kaberle and say he is an elite PP specialist who is weak at Even strength. He is top 15 PP pts production. He is not top 60 in even points production and he is the 7th worst dman for goals against in the league. You have a guy who is involved in 9 more goals than the league average on the power play. Who give up 25 more goals than the league average At even strength. Would you take him? Not if you want your team to win.

Phaneuf: He has a lot of pretty hits. And the "Master of Disguise", Pierre McGuire (NBC,TSN) wants him to be his monster. (isn't there a law against that) But the results say he is the 8th worst Dman for goals against. He gives up 24 more even goals than the league average. Calgary is paying him 6.5M to be the worst Dman in the western conference for 17.5 mintes a game at even. All the flames fans I talk to at work see it too.

oilerbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 12:52 PM
  #79
Darkstar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 226
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Valk View Post
Nothing? Subban? D'Agostini? Halak?

I can understand if you don't want to move him, but nothing is a pretty strong statement! I have to believe Plekanec, Subban and a 1st would get Keith if they wanted to get a deal done.

That said, I've seen Keith play, and he is very, very good. I can't imagine the Hawks trading him anytime soon.

http://*********************.blogspot.com
Nothing. I wouldn't want a combo of players and picks for him. I would want another impact player in trade and nothing the Habs have would interest me. You don't trade a player like Keith unless you have no choice and the Hawks aren't in that situation. If the Habs offer your proposed deal, Tallon should laugh and hang up.

Darkstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 01:07 PM
  #80
grabo84
Registered User
 
grabo84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlantic Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
The aspects of the game are: Scoring even points, Scoring power play points, Preventing goals at even, and Preventign goals on the PP(PK). Taking a players results over the time they play says what they are doing.
These are the only aspects of the game? Also, you're only taking play this year, I wouldn't agree that equates to "over time".

Quote:
I however Look at Kaberle and say he is an elite PP specialist who is weak at Even strength. He is top 15 PP pts production. He is not top 60 in even points production and he is the 7th worst dman for goals against in the league. You have a guy who is involved in 9 more goals than the league average on the power play. Who give up 25 more goals than the league average At even strength. Would you take him? Not if you want your team to win.
This is one of the stupider things I've ever seen. So now Kaberle is not even good enough to play on your team? Give me a break.

Quote:
Phaneuf: He has a lot of pretty hits. And the "Master of Disguise", Pierre McGuire (NBC,TSN) wants him to be his monster. (isn't there a law against that) But the results say he is the 8th worst Dman for goals against. He gives up 24 more even goals than the league average. Calgary is paying him 6.5M to be the worst Dman in the western conference for 17.5 mintes a game at even. All the flames fans I talk to at work see it too.
Do you watch hockey? In what universe is Phaneuf the worst defenceman in the western conference, excluding PP time? Could it be that your stats aren't nearly as comprehensive as you think?

grabo84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 02:11 PM
  #81
Xspyrit
Registered User
 
Xspyrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monterrey, Mexico
Country: Italy
Posts: 13,477
vCash: 500
Keith is more than amazing. I can't even move or react everytime i see him play. Hawks shouldn't move him unless it is for a ridiculous overpayment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
I see you know very little about hockey then.
You have to see Keith play dude... He is a top-5 D-man now. Defenseman is more than points. If it was Komisarek would have no value... Green, Lidstrom, Chara,... Keith. I don't see many d-man better than Keith.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace88 View Post
Perhaps Keith + Brouwer for the Brothers Kostitsyn?
? I don't see the ? I'm confused


Last edited by Xspyrit: 02-25-2009 at 02:19 PM.
Xspyrit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:01 PM
  #82
oilerbear
Registered User
 
oilerbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
These are the only aspects of the game? Also, you're only taking play this year, I wouldn't agree that equates to "over time".
Hows kaberle's play 5 year ago helping you with the team this year. God thats funny! Maybe he can find a Magic Hockey fairy to switch his play to that of 5 years ago.
BAH HA HA HA HA HA
You deseveHockey Futures Clown badge #12.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
This is one of the stupider things I've ever seen. So now Kaberle is not even good enough to play on your team? Give me a break.
The key to winning a game is scoring more goals than you give up. kaberle has given up 46 EV goals in 48 games.

Compare that to a guy like gilbert who has Similiar PP production numbers and Better even points production. 39 EV goals given up in 59 games.

Compare that to a guy like Vishnovsky who has similiar PP production numbers and better even points production. 26 EV goals given up in 49 games.

Compared to Souray similiar power play production, Better even point production. 37 EV goals yeilded in 56 games.

Compared to Grebeshkov who has similiar PP production and better EV points production. 31 EV goals given in 50 games

Compared to a young player like Smid currently playing 2nd Pair. Similiar Even points though he gets no PP time. 23 EV goals in 43 games.

I have just listed 5 dmen who deserve and would get even minutes before Kaberle.

Now you tell me you would play Kaberle over any of these 5 at even strength play. We will see what should be called stupidest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Do you watch hockey? In what universe is Phaneuf the worst defenceman in the western conference, excluding PP time? Could it be that your stats aren't nearly as comprehensive as you think?
Drive 400 KM to edmonton 14 times a year to watch the games. I have center Ice, as a single dad I like to watch 2 games a night; after my 4 year old has gone to bed. While the laundry and dishes are being done. You know fold Clothes, Prep luch Etc. Have seen around 20 leafs, Rangers, Ottawa, Pit, Isles, Caps, and panthers. Have seen around 10 of the other teams games this year and most of the flames and oilers.

The one on the nhl.com that says he has given up the most goals of any dman in the league. 57 even goals in 59 games. The most goals in the league. Nearly a goal a game for 17.5 minutes of even play. there is not much worse but worst in WC. His even points production is ranked #42 in the league. His only saving grace is the forwards he plays with generate at such a good rate that his +/- numbers are break even.

Just as a point of reference to all of this the league's 2 best for 15+ min dmen:
#1. Rob Blake 22 goals in 56 games with 15.1 min of play 1.57GA/60
#2. Arron Ward 19 goals in 45 games with 15.6 min of play 1.62GA/60

Could it be! Thats a trite response to the refusal to recognize atempts to create a scientific approach to studying the game.

Could it be, belongs with I feel and I believe. It reminds me of that self help character that was Saturday Night Live Stuart Smilie. And gosh darn I like Myself. Could it be, belongs in philosphy class. You give yourself a hug and a little cry and go tell your freinds what you think of Kaberle. Huggy Kissy!

I will look at results to tell me the truth.


Last edited by oilerbear: 02-25-2009 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Spelling
oilerbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 03:08 PM
  #83
grabo84
Registered User
 
grabo84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlantic Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Just as a point of reference to all of this the league's 2 best for 15+ min dmen:
#1. Rob Blake 22 goals in 56 games with 15.1 min of play 1.57GA/60
#2. Arron Ward 19 goals in 45 games with 15.6 min of play 1.62GA/60
I won't get into the rest of your post, but ask yourself this. Could it be that the reason that these two defencemen are 1 and 2 is because they play for the two best teams in the league? Now, think about what that means for your argument.

grabo84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:21 PM
  #84
bhawk24bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 369
vCash: 500
nmnm

bhawk24bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 04:52 PM
  #85
oilerbear
Registered User
 
oilerbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
You have to see Keith play dude... He is a top-5 D-man now. Defenseman is more than points. If it was Komisarek would have no value... Green, Lidstrom, Chara,... Keith. I don't see many d-man better than Keith.
Komisarik is part of the defensive dman group that you want to be more stay at home with a physical presence in front of the net, good at breaking the cycle and board dominant. The ability to make good hits with out being a even nightmare.(See Phanuef on what not to do). Great EV goals against and Good PK production. as a result you look for a Dman with low EV GA. High RTSS counts /GM with Hits and Blocks. The takeaway count needs to be refined to reflect steals, cycle breaks, and Board wins.

The same kind of refinement ESPN did by adopting a shot chart similiar to NBA shot chart were you can review the context of each shot. to get a better idea of real scoring chances versus shot count.

His 2.39 GA is First pairing while palying strong minutes against the 20th toughest competion faced and deilvering . He delivers the 2nd highest hit count 3.25Hits/GM in the league and has the hifghest block shot count 3.4BLK/GM. His Pk goals against is awful. His numbers show a dominate physical presence while being able to maintain a good ev Goals against. If he is not the top Even defensive dman in the league he is top 5. His failing at the PK probaly elimantes him from being in the top 10 of defensive Dmen in the league. There are guys with similiar even prescence and superior Pk skill.

Guys with hit/blk combo + 3.8/gm Top pairing #'s for Goals against and Pk numbers:
Theer are 6 in the league.
M Greene LA
J Hedja CBJ
A Volchenkov OTT
R. Reghr CGY
Ballard FLD
Seabrook CHI

I think Komisareck is the most physical prescence in the game but the ^ above now have the complete game.

oilerbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:06 PM
  #86
Xspyrit
Registered User
 
Xspyrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Monterrey, Mexico
Country: Italy
Posts: 13,477
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
Komisarik is part of the defensive dman group that you want to be more stay at home with a physical presence in front of the net, good at breaking the cycle and board dominant. The ability to make good hits with out being a even nightmare.(See Phanuef on what not to do). Great EV goals against and Good PK production. as a result you look for a Dman with low EV GA. High RTSS counts /GM with Hits and Blocks. The takeaway count needs to be refined to reflect steals, cycle breaks, and Board wins.

The same kind of refinement ESPN did by adopting a shot chart similiar to NBA shot chart were you can review the context of each shot. to get a better idea of real scoring chances versus shot count.

His 2.39 GA is First pairing while palying strong minutes against the 20th toughest competion faced and deilvering . He delivers the 2nd highest hit count 3.25Hits/GM in the league and has the hifghest block shot count 3.4BLK/GM. His Pk goals against is awful. His numbers show a dominate physical presence while being able to maintain a good ev Goals against. If he is not the top Even defensive dman in the league he is top 5. His failing at the PK probaly elimantes him from being in the top 10 of defensive Dmen in the league. There are guys with similiar even prescence and superior Pk skill.

Guys with hit/blk combo + 3.8/gm Top pairing #'s for Goals against and Pk numbers:
Theer are 6 in the league.
M Greene LA
J Hedja CBJ
A Volchenkov OTT
R. Reghr CGY
Ballard FLD
Seabrook CHI

I think Komisareck is the most physical prescence in the game but the ^ above now have the complete game.
Really? Sorry i'm new to hockey

Anyway i was saying that you can't only look at points to evaluate a D-man. I'm sure a lot of people do. Other than that, your post was knowleadgable and a very good read.

Xspyrit is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:06 PM
  #87
oilerbear
Registered User
 
oilerbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
I won't get into the rest of your post, but ask yourself this. Could it be that the reason that these two defencemen are 1 and 2 is because they play for the two best teams in the league? Now, think about what that means for your argument.
It is a look at the players ability while they are on the ice. Not as a team for the full 60 minutes.

You just don't get it. Yeah kaberle's numbers are terrible because the rest of the team is terrible when he is not on the ice.

There are Dmen on Toronto that give up one less goal every 4 games. No its because kaberle is bad at even.


Last edited by oilerbear: 02-25-2009 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Swear
oilerbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:17 PM
  #88
oilerbear
Registered User
 
oilerbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,623
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Really? Sorry i'm new to hockey

Anyway i was saying that you can't only look at points to evaluate a D-man. I'm sure a lot of people do. Other than that, your post was knowleadgable and a very good read.

No I really respect your point.

The review of players ability thruough video and Statisics is becoming a stronger scouting tool for teams like Buffalo and Detroit. Do you wonder why they are ahead of everyone else. going and seeing a player three times ayear is a trrible way to access talent. Watch them 20 times and review there situation numbers you get a better read of the player.

The Stastical approach has made major growth over the last three years. many articles are puplished on the analysis of situaional play. But there are human factors and personal stories that may affect play.

Factors: It is understood that hockey is one of the most dynamic sports in the world. Plus it is multi plane. Some sports are strictly forward perrifiral. The dynamics of a single play.

But all sports are result oriented. An individuals results can be reviewed and put into context of the individual skills. supported by video. All this data does is support what is seen by me in the games.

oilerbear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 05:38 PM
  #89
grabo84
Registered User
 
grabo84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlantic Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerbear View Post
It is a look at the players ability while they are on the ice. Not as a team for the full 60 minutes.

You just don't get it. Yeah kaberle's numbers are terrible because the rest of the team is terrible when he is not on the ice.

There are Dmen on Toronto that give up one less goal every 4 games. No its because kaberle is bad at even.
You missed the point completely. Isn't it interesting that the worst defenceman, by your measurement of even strength goals against, play big minutes for lousy teams? And that the best defencemen, by your measurement, play similarly big minutes for the best teams in the league?

I'll give you a hint. What you have is essentially a plus/minus stat, in that it is influenced dramatically by who a player has playing with him, and how strong his team is. This should make it pretty clear that its an inadequate measure of a players general talent, effectiveness, or skill.

grabo84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 06:01 PM
  #90
Crazy_Ike
Cookin' with fire.
 
Crazy_Ike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,501
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
You missed the point completely. Isn't it interesting that the worst defenceman, by your measurement of even strength goals against, play big minutes for lousy teams? And that the best defencemen, by your measurement, play similarly big minutes for the best teams in the league?

I'll give you a hint. What you have is essentially a plus/minus stat, in that it is influenced dramatically by who a player has playing with him, and how strong his team is. This should make it pretty clear that its an inadequate measure of a players general talent, effectiveness, or skill.
Still ******** that it trashes the myth that Kaberle is any good at defense, are you?

Let me pose a question back at you - did you consider the possibility that those teams are where they are BECAUSE of the play of the players on them?

If you didn't follow that, it's not that Kaberle is not supported by the inferior teammates around him, it's that he's one of them.


Crazy_Ike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 06:09 PM
  #91
grabo84
Registered User
 
grabo84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Atlantic Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Ike View Post
Still ******** that it trashes the myth that Kaberle is any good at defense, are you?

Let me pose a question back at you - did you consider the possibility that those teams are where they are BECAUSE of the play of the players on them?

If you didn't follow that, it's not that Kaberle is not supported by the inferior teammates around him, it's that he's one of them.

That was classy.

So are you trying to say its Kaberle's fault that Toskala has a 0.886 save %? Or that our #1 centre is Matt Stajan? Or that we have the most rookie games played in the NHL? That doesn't hold water.

Edit: Also, I never said he's good at defence. I'm saying this stat argument that oilerbear uses is basically +/-, and can't be used to compare players playing different roles, for different teams.

grabo84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-25-2009, 06:29 PM
  #92
BenJesus
Registered User
 
BenJesus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Country: United States
Posts: 111
vCash: 500
no way chicago trades away one of their franchise players unless what you're getting in return is a great deal

BenJesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.