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PART 2 -- #60 -- Canadiens at Flyers -- February 27, 2009

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02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
  #26
Dig Out Your Soul
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I guess this part of your post is what leaves me baffled, if you will. Nobody deserves to get dumped for every little mistake. Not Richards, Carter or Timonen...not Jones, Alberts or Niittymaki or Biron. Not a single player in this game is perfect...and I think sometimes the dumping they get is completely unjust.

You can blame who you wish, whatever makes you make feel better...but the fact of the matter is that we played a decent game despite the potentless PP. We had some roster changes and managed to get a point of out it. I would hardly push the panic button. Maybe I'm just a little more relaxed than most Flyers fans, I don't know.

Personally, I was pretty happy with the point given the situation. The roster BS, the cluster**** of a first period, the horrible PP, etc. I'm just trying to say that if blame has to be placed, the captain is about 10th on the list tonight.


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I don't know about a brutal call. I love Upshall like the next guy, but he made contact with Halak in the blue paint...without being pushed/checked into him...that's a penalty every single day. You know as well as I do, that if that was Kovalev crashing Niitty's crease...we'd expect a call too. I don't see it any other way. I have no problem playing homer but let's be serious...would you be cool if a Hab did that at our end and there was no call?

There is favouritism, and there is favouritism.

I noticed a post where chaoss says Hartnell embellished a play too much. Same thing here, when a Flyer 'embellishes', it's all fine and dandy...when Crosby 'embellishes', he's a diver and disgrace to the game. I'm noticing this more and more around here. There's nothing wrong with wearing orange tinted glasses...but let's all call a spade a spade.
I'm almost certain there would be no call if a Hab did it at our end.

The Flyers rarely get the benefit of the doubt on goalie interference calls. It's the principle of the thing. What is Upshall supposed to do? He made a tremendous end to end rush, beat the defenseman wide, and went hard to the net. He had nowhere else to go. It was a great rush and a solid hockey play. He barely brushed the goalie. There's no way that's a penalty in overtime in my mind, no matter who is playing.

And about embellishing - every player does it. But we're fans. We want to see our team get the calls our way so we can win. Sometimes being objective just isn't fun and that's why we're here, right?

Afterwards is a time to reflect and discuss things a little more rationally. During a game, I could care less what comes out of my mouth - I just want to win.

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02-28-2009, 12:09 AM
  #27
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Just got back from the bar.

******** call on Upshall. The ref's handed the Habs the game. Can't blame the Habs, I'd take the same in their situation. But seriously, goalie interference? WTF?

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02-28-2009, 12:11 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
******** call on Upshall.
Goalie's head was popped back by Upshall's knee. It looked uglier than it was, and I think that's what generated the penalty call.

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02-28-2009, 12:16 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
Flyers jump to a 2-0 lead in the first 8 plus minutes
Niittymaki has a 3 minute brain cramp late in the first and gives up 3
Flyers given 2 5 on 3's totalling about 2 minutes in the 2nd and didnt score
Gagne tied it.
Flyers go 0-8 on the PP
Upshall takes a quesionable penalty in OT and the Flyers lost.
read a post bout stevens talkin bout the team playing river hockey. lol. finally he calls em out for that.

ur description sounds brutally frustrating.

i was told parent hit someone pretty good in open ice. true?

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02-28-2009, 12:19 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Personally, I was pretty happy with the point given the situation. The roster BS, the cluster**** of a first period, the horrible PP, etc. I'm just trying to say that if blame has to be placed, the captain is about 10th on the list tonight.
Likewise, 1 point is better than 2 points. Not much else to add, you said it all. Not to mention we were playing a desperate team. I guess the difference is I feel there doesn't need to be 'blame' put anybody. We win is a team, we lose as a team...period.

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I'm almost certain there would be no call if a Hab did it at our end.
Uh huh...orange tinted glasses.

lol.

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The Flyers rarely get the benefit of the doubt on goalie interference calls. It's the principle of the thing. What is Upshall supposed to do? He made a tremendous end to end rush, beat the defenseman wide, and went hard to the net. He had nowhere else to go. It was a great rush and a solid hockey play. He barely brushed the goalie. There's no way that's a penalty in overtime in my mind, no matter who is playing.
No question, great effort and terrific play...but that call has to be made. Just like the NFL needs to protect the quarterbacks...the NHL needs to protect the goalies. Not calling that, pretty much condones it...and that, IMO, opens a huge can of worms.

Devils advocate - Kovalev crashes the net on a similar play, Biron is in...and he get's knocked out cold. You cool if there is no penalty? I doubt it.

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And about embellishing - every player does it. But we're fans. We want to see our team get the calls our way so we can win. Sometimes being objective just isn't fun and that's why we're here, right?
Absolutely, every player does it. Richards, Hartnell, Crosby, Oveckin, etc. Maybe I'm just too objective...I don't know.

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Afterwards is a time to reflect and discuss things a little more rationally. During a game, I could care less what comes out of my mouth - I just want to win.
Hahaha, beautiful!

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02-28-2009, 12:19 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Jones has his moments. The problem is those moments don't add up to $2.75M a year.
agreed. he's overpaid (it's debatable by how much), but he's still doing a very good job. better that he's elevated his game instead of ****ing **** up

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02-28-2009, 12:21 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
what went down, i missed it. the game. and apparently some bickering. lol. howd metro fair if he played
Hahaha, when's the last time there wasn't bickering in a Flyers GDT?

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02-28-2009, 12:25 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Hahaha, when's the last time there wasn't bickering in a Flyers GDT?
truth be told. i was wondering what ep 60 of as the puck turns went like. lol

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02-28-2009, 12:42 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
No question, great effort and terrific play...but that call has to be made. Just like the NFL needs to protect the quarterbacks...the NHL needs to protect the goalies. Not calling that, pretty much condones it...and that, IMO, opens a huge can of worms.

Devils advocate - Kovalev crashes the net on a similar play, Biron is in...and he get's knocked out cold. You cool if there is no penalty? I doubt it.
If Kovalev crashes the net and knocks Biron out cold, it's a penalty. But if Kovalev drives the net and has only one place to carry his momentum - between the goalie and the defenseman - and he brushes past the goalie, it's not a call in my mind. It just can't be.

If Upshall knocked over Halak and a goal was scored - I understand why there's no goal. But the puck ended up in the corner and Halak was fine. Where's the harm? It was minimal contact at best and not worthy of a call, in my opinion.

Also, refs aren't supposed to consider the time of the game or the situation, but it's painfully obvious that they do when whistles are put away in the third period and most overtimes. They have to realize what's at stake in the playoff race and give Scottie the benefit of the doubt. He had nowhere to go. He didn't slam into the goalie, he tried to slip through and made contact out of necessity.

There is such a thing as being too protective of goalies and QBs. I find a lot of roughing the passer calls to be weak as well. It's how I feel, I guess.

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02-28-2009, 12:51 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
...says the troll of all trolls.
Oh, I missed this. Sooo sweet.

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02-28-2009, 12:59 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
If Kovalev crashes the net and knocks Biron out cold, it's a penalty. But if Kovalev drives the net and has only one place to carry his momentum - between the goalie and the defenseman - and he brushes past the goalie, it's not a call in my mind. It just can't be.

If Upshall knocked over Halak and a goal was scored - I understand why there's no goal. But the puck ended up in the corner and Halak was fine. Where's the harm? It was minimal contact at best and not worthy of a call, in my opinion.

Also, refs aren't supposed to consider the time of the game or the situation, but it's painfully obvious that they do when whistles are put away in the third period and most overtimes. They have to realize what's at stake in the playoff race and give Scottie the benefit of the doubt. He had nowhere to go. He didn't slam into the goalie, he tried to slip through and made contact out of necessity.

There is such a thing as being too protective of goalies and QBs. I find a lot of roughing the passer calls to be weak as well. It's how I feel, I guess.
I guess this is where our opinions are different. I feel you have to take action and call the penalty on the infraction (unforced contact with a goalie in his crease), and not the result. You set a precident if you got into this way of judging, IMO.

That's like stabbing someone and saying it's fine if it's a little cut, but if you hit an artery...you'll be charged and prosecuted. It's too late then, the damage is done. At that point, does it really matter?

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02-28-2009, 01:01 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Just got back from the bar.

******** call on Upshall. The ref's handed the Habs the game. Can't blame the Habs, I'd take the same in their situation. But seriously, goalie interference? WTF?
The Flyers were given 8 pp chances, TWO 5 on 3's in the 2nd period totalling a litttle over 2 minutes. The Flyers were more then given the chances to win the game in regulation and they couldnt get it done.
I am not gonna use the "its the refs fault" card for this game.
The Upshall call in OT was tough but it happens. The Flyers had their chances and didnt take advantage.
Time to move on and get ready for Sunday.

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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
read a post bout stevens talkin bout the team playing river hockey. lol. finally he calls em out for that.

ur description sounds brutally frustrating.

i was told parent hit someone pretty good in open ice. true?
yeah Stevens did. They got cute when they got the first 2 goals.

frustrating, but consitering everything I will take the point.


yep, smoked Kostitsyn


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02-28-2009, 01:06 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
If Kovalev crashes the net and knocks Biron out cold, it's a penalty. But if Kovalev drives the net and has only one place to carry his momentum - between the goalie and the defenseman - and he brushes past the goalie, it's not a call in my mind. It just can't be.

If Upshall knocked over Halak and a goal was scored - I understand why there's no goal. But the puck ended up in the corner and Halak was fine. Where's the harm? It was minimal contact at best and not worthy of a call, in my opinion.
That's exactly my view. In a normal game in the 2nd period, is that a penalty? Probably and I wouldn't have much of a problem with it because goalies are overprotected, it's just the way it is.

But in this case, you're calling a HUGE OT penalty between 2 teams in a playoff race and furthermore, the so-called penalty didn't affect the play whatsoever since the puck was in the corner.

If it leads to a goal/incredible scoring chance, I can understand the whistle, but in this case, the incident didn't lead to anything, so just put the whistles away.

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02-28-2009, 01:31 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I guess this is where our opinions are different. I feel you have to take action and call the penalty on the infraction (unforced contact with a goalie in his crease), and not the result. You set a precident if you got into this way of judging, IMO.

That's like stabbing someone and saying it's fine if it's a little cut, but if you hit an artery...you'll be charged and prosecuted. It's too late then, the damage is done. At that point, does it really matter?
You can't call every penalty that way - I understand these days a hook is a hook, etc.

But with interference penalties, you have to figure out what interference really means. Did Upshall run into him? Yeah a little bit. But did he interfere with the goalie to the point he couldn't perform his duty in the net? The answer is no. In this case I do believe no harm = no foul. It wasn't malicious, it wasn't deliberate, it was just a minor collision between two players in a very fast, physical sport. The puck went into the corner, the goalie gets up from his flop, play goes on.

That's the other thing. If we're going to protect the goalies to the point where breathing on them is a penalty, refs have to be a lot more mindful of their theatrics.

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02-28-2009, 02:38 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
i have to do it. jones played 27:43, second highest of anyone for the game. markov had 29:50. and you know what? he didn't look that bad doing it. i think jones makes the most mistakes when he has the puck. i know that sounds stupid, but seriously, he's been pretty good positionally as of late. i think he's stepped up very nicely. fire away everyone
jones ****ing tries to pinch to damn much, that's what pisses me off the most about him. I saw it again tonight. He did it in a critical point of the game but luckily it didn't cost us a goal again (and just for JXC, it was a forward who covered is ass, otherwise it would have been a 2v1 against).

To anyone who has never played before, 27 mins as a forward is like 35-40 mins as a defender. You work much much harder as a forward DRIVING the play as opposed to s defender who is retreating and reacting ot the play, trust me, I've sone both. 27 mins as a forward is too too much.

However, regardless of the number of minute played, Richards is simply NOT money on facepffs. Yes he's had his moments where he's won consecutive critical faceoffs but more times than not we've LOST those key faceoffs as opposed to win them regardless of whose been taking them the past 2 years. We need someone like Joel Otto on the team again. Someone who is great on facepffs and is a specific counter to the best center in the division. For those who don't know we specifically went out and got Joel Otto back in the Lindros days when Messier went to the Rangers. When Mess played for the Oilers, Otto was the Flames center who was ALWAYS matched up against him and he shut him down better than any other center Mess ever played against. Otto was also very good on faceoffs. We need someone like him to be good on facepffs and to also be albe to shut down Crosby (he always seems to kill us).

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02-28-2009, 06:08 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Opus, I see you calling me out about 8 times in the now locked GDT, because I was the one ragging on Metro the other night. I wasn't able to post much during the game as my girlfriend was over and hates it when I'm on the computer during games. My apologies.

Richards did not have a good night in the circle and I have no problem admitting it. It's something he needs to work on. So does Carter. He won some clutch draws in the playoffs last year and usually succeeds when it's a key situation. Tonight he didn't. I hope this apparent shoulder injury is what made him look so bad tonight.

As you said, it happens.

What pisses me off is the Flyers fan base beating the **** out of the guy (verbally) because of one overtime loss in which he was run into the ground by his coach - and one in which he was +2 and scored as CG pointed out. That's BS. I ****ing hate our fans. Either hate a guy, or like a guy. Don't flip-flop every game. If the guy isn't scoring 5 points a night he's an epic failure. Make up your ****ing minds. The only consistency on this board is the hate for Randy Jones. It's sad.

Where's the blame for the goalie who ducks out of the way of shots? Where's the blame for the coach who puts the fourth line out when the game is slipping away in the first period and leaves in the same goalie who ducks out of the way of shots? Where's the blame for every single member of those PP units that couldn't do **** with 8 powerplays and tons of 5 on 3 time?

Not to mention a ****ing brutal and game-changing call in overtime. There's too much on the line to take away a guy's right to go hard to the net with the puck. But I guess in Gary Buttman's NHL, scoring from one knee in the slot is the only thing that gets rewarded.
And Tim P said after that richards had hurt his shoulder. Makes faceoffs hard

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02-28-2009, 06:11 AM
  #42
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You can't call every penalty that way - I understand these days a hook is a hook, etc.

But with interference penalties, you have to figure out what interference really means. Did Upshall run into him? Yeah a little bit. But did he interfere with the goalie to the point he couldn't perform his duty in the net? The answer is no. In this case I do believe no harm = no foul. It wasn't malicious, it wasn't deliberate, it was just a minor collision between two players in a very fast, physical sport. The puck went into the corner, the goalie gets up from his flop, play goes on.
I'm all for putting the 'whistles away', just not when it comes it contact with the goaltender. The refs generally do let a little more go in OT, and I commend them for that. Like I said...goalies do deserve the extra protection...much like a QB in football.

I do agree with you, the contact was minimal. But there was contact, and was clearly in the blue paint...that's pretty much a penalty every time unless the defending player checks you into his own goalie...this wasn't the case here.

Quote:
That's the other thing. If we're going to protect the goalies to the point where breathing on them is a penalty, refs have to be a lot more mindful of their theatrics.
Agreed, but Halak didn't try and earn himself an academy award on the play...and not that you said he did. I think you're talking about the likes of Hasek, and I'd be fine with that, if the play resembled this...


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02-28-2009, 07:20 AM
  #43
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What a shocker....no powerplay goals and we cant outscore the opposition.

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02-28-2009, 07:38 AM
  #44
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What a shocker....no powerplay goals and we cant outscore the opposition.
this team lives and dies by the power play. didn't catch the game last night (stupid ATDHE, won't be catching many games the rest of the season) so i'm not sure what happened, but 0/9 is unacceptable for this team. as someone who doesn't like briere, i really hope he's almost ready to come back. i'm sure not having timonen played a huge part too.

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02-28-2009, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Just got back from the bar.

******** call on Upshall. The ref's handed the Habs the game. Can't blame the Habs, I'd take the same in their situation. But seriously, goalie interference? WTF?
No, sorry, you're wrong. Not a soul here should complain about the refs who gave us 8 PP's and 2 5-on-3's. They had a power play with 10 minutes left. If you want to complain about the Upshall penalty being a bad call, that's fine. To say the refs handed the Habs the game is incorrect. There never is a penalty to call in OT if the Flyers score on a PP or two. The power play had one of its worst games of the season.

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02-28-2009, 07:54 AM
  #46
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What a shocker....no powerplay goals and we cant outscore the opposition.
Give me a break...

7-2-1 in the last 10, that's good for the best record in the last 10 of any teams in the Eastern Conference.

Life as a fan of the Flyers is just so awful, isn't it???

I've seriously never a bunch of more negative people...let's look at the postives, as there are plenty.

Holy Negadelphia man, seriously.

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02-28-2009, 08:00 AM
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Life as a fan of the Flyers is just so awful, isn't it???
No Cups in 34 years does that.

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02-28-2009, 08:10 AM
  #48
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No Cups in 34 years does that.
Yet people don't want to (were just talking here) trade a guy who has never played an NHL game (JVR, + other pieces) for a potential superstar who makes us THAT much better and gives us a better shot at the cup

Riiight, okay.


I guess it's a real good some of the people here don't live in Chicago...


I'll bet that 85+% of this board wasn't even alive when the the Flyers last the won the Stanley Cup, myself included (I'm 30). If the majority of us posters were in our 40's, then I could see a little impatience, but that's simply not the case.

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02-28-2009, 08:20 AM
  #49
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The Upshall penalty made me remember an OT game we lost to NYR a while back. I think it was Theo Fleury who had a brake away, took his shot, and then slid into our goalie who had the puck sitting right in front of him, and knocked both goalie and puck into the net. Game over.

Any update on Richard's shoulder, we can't afford to miss him until Briere comes back

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02-28-2009, 08:29 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
You can't call every penalty that way - I understand these days a hook is a hook, etc.

But with interference penalties, you have to figure out what interference really means. Did Upshall run into him? Yeah a little bit. But did he interfere with the goalie to the point he couldn't perform his duty in the net? The answer is no. In this case I do believe no harm = no foul. It wasn't malicious, it wasn't deliberate, it was just a minor collision between two players in a very fast, physical sport. The puck went into the corner, the goalie gets up from his flop, play goes on.

That's the other thing. If we're going to protect the goalies to the point where breathing on them is a penalty, refs have to be a lot more mindful of their theatrics.

Nppe, wasnt a hard hit or anything... but unless you make an effort and try to avoid it, "hitting" the goalie like this is considered interference. No one pushed or hit Upshall, so it was possible (even if there wasnt much space between the D and Halak) for Upshall to avoid the contact, or at least try to... and he didnt, so he got a 2. Not the same as an interference on a D for example.

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