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PART 2 -- #60 -- Canadiens at Flyers -- February 27, 2009

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Old
02-28-2009, 08:33 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Yet people don't want to (were just talking here) trade a guy who has never played an NHL game (JVR, + other pieces) for a potential superstar who makes us THAT much better and gives us a better shot at the cup

Riiight, okay.


I guess it's a real good some of the people here don't live in Chicago...


I'll bet that 85+% of this board wasn't even alive when the the Flyers last the won the Stanley Cup, myself included (I'm 30). If the majority of us posters were in our 40's, then I could see a little impatience, but that's simply not the case.
And JVR might be a potential super star too. In a cap world, you can't just go out and get a guy because you want him. That's just not how it works anymore. I've been complaining more about the draft and the inability for this team to develop defensemen and goaltenders than not being able to get elite talent.

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Old
02-28-2009, 08:50 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
And JVR might be a potential super star too. In a cap world, you can't just go out and get a guy because you want him. That's just not how it works anymore. I've been complaining more about the draft and the inability for this team to develop defensemen and goaltenders than not being able to get elite talent.
You said it, 'might'. I'll take proven talent over 'what if' every day of the week.

We have a shot to land a player that addresses team needs NOW. A player that makes us a better team NOW. Whether you want to use Pronger or JBo as the player...or even Backstrom for that matter...these players are available and would make the team BETTER. Yet people want to stand pat, how is that not talking out of both sides of the mouth???

In your last post, you brought up that you feel people are on edge/pissed off about the fact that the Flyers haven't won the Stanley Cup in 34 years. If that is indeed the case, then why hold on to a 'what if' (JVR) for a proven guy that helps now? You could argue that if we had Timonen and Coburn last spring...we beat the Penguins, could you not? I'm not saying it happens, but one could make a valid arguement. You could then argue that adding one of the players I mentioned above allow us to better compete with say...the Red Wings? Just a though.

If people are have their panties in a knot about not winning the Cup, but insist we can't trade JVR because he's going to be good in 5 years...then that's their perogative...but I think it's so double standard it's comical. Of course adding a big name player doesn't gurantee a Cup...just like holding onto JVR doesn't guarantee you that he's going to good. However, I like my chances now knowing who and what I have now, rather then 5 years from now when we simply have no clue.

Maybe I speak for myself, but I'd be perfectly fine with a small set-back for the future to win a Cup now.

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02-28-2009, 09:32 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
You said it, 'might'. I'll take proven talent over 'what if' every day of the week.

We have a shot to land a player that addresses team needs NOW. A player that makes us a better team NOW. Whether you want to use Pronger or JBo as the player...or even Backstrom for that matter...these players are available and would make the team BETTER. Yet people want to stand pat, how is that not talking out of both sides of the mouth???

In your last post, you brought up that you feel people are on edge/pissed off about the fact that the Flyers haven't won the Stanley Cup in 34 years. If that is indeed the case, then why hold on to a 'what if' (JVR) for a proven guy that helps now? You could argue that if we had Timonen and Coburn last spring...we beat the Penguins, could you not? I'm not saying it happens, but one could make a valid arguement. You could then argue that adding one of the players I mentioned above allow us to better compete with say...the Red Wings? Just a though.

If people are have their panties in a knot about not winning the Cup, but insist we can't trade JVR because he's going to be good in 5 years...then that's their perogative...but I think it's so double standard it's comical. Of course adding a big name player doesn't gurantee a Cup...just like holding onto JVR doesn't guarantee you that he's going to good. However, I like my chances now knowing who and what I have now, rather then 5 years from now when we simply have no clue.

Maybe I speak for myself, but I'd be perfectly fine with a small set-back for the future to win a Cup now.
sometimes you need to gamble. the trick to success is getting the greatest payoff, not the best bet for a little profit.

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02-28-2009, 10:49 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
You said it, 'might'. I'll take proven talent over 'what if' every day of the week.

We have a shot to land a player that addresses team needs NOW. A player that makes us a better team NOW. Whether you want to use Pronger or JBo as the player...or even Backstrom for that matter...these players are available and would make the team BETTER. Yet people want to stand pat, how is that not talking out of both sides of the mouth???

In your last post, you brought up that you feel people are on edge/pissed off about the fact that the Flyers haven't won the Stanley Cup in 34 years. If that is indeed the case, then why hold on to a 'what if' (JVR) for a proven guy that helps now? You could argue that if we had Timonen and Coburn last spring...we beat the Penguins, could you not? I'm not saying it happens, but one could make a valid arguement. You could then argue that adding one of the players I mentioned above allow us to better compete with say...the Red Wings? Just a though.

If people are have their panties in a knot about not winning the Cup, but insist we can't trade JVR because he's going to be good in 5 years...then that's their perogative...but I think it's so double standard it's comical. Of course adding a big name player doesn't gurantee a Cup...just like holding onto JVR doesn't guarantee you that he's going to good. However, I like my chances now knowing who and what I have now, rather then 5 years from now when we simply have no clue.

Maybe I speak for myself, but I'd be perfectly fine with a small set-back for the future to win a Cup now.
Yeah, this is HFBoards where everyone wants to win later. I've seen people say they'd rather keep JVR and win 5 Cups in the magical future than win one Cup this year. Dumb.

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02-28-2009, 11:07 AM
  #55
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It's not like trading for Pronger or J-Bouw guarantees us for a cup.

It just screws us over for the future. In the cap world, you keep your window open as long as possible, why limit ours to this year?

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Old
02-28-2009, 11:07 AM
  #56
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It's a long step down from Dan Briere to Jared Ross and an even longer one from Kim Timonen to Lasse Kukkonen (or Randy Jones, of you like). I'll take the point.

The game was lost on the power play and by soft goaltender play.

I'm not sure what the fascination is with Richards on the power play point. He's not that good at it. I often wonder why lots of folks cannot wait until Briere returns so that Richards can play man advantage point. I'd FAR rather see 44 and 5 back there on first unit. I think the disarray on the PP is less absence of 44 at the point than it is absence of 18 on the half boards. Carter, Hartnell, Knuble, Gagne, Giroux aren't half the player at that spot that Richards is.

That being said, the future is Richards at point so that's why they keep running him out there. It's all good.

Parent was not good. I thought Jones was just okay. Carle is not a good second pairing guy right now. Coburn continues to ramp it up.

To move or not to move JVR for JayBo or ChrisPro:

= do either of those additions make the Flyers a serious Cup threat? especially given that
= Lupul would have to go too, and
= how bad does that make cap quandaries in the near future?

In my opinion,

44-5
25-Pronger
77-6

is a Cup-calibre defense.

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Old
02-28-2009, 12:11 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Yeah, this is HFBoards where everyone wants to win later. I've seen people say they'd rather keep JVR and win 5 Cups in the magical future than win one Cup this year. Dumb.
Yup. I'd LOVE to keep JVR and win 5 cups in the future but there's no guarentee that we win those 5 cups. However, trading JVR NOW doesn't guarrentee us a cup this year either. If it did then I'd personally go drag his ass out of his dorm room, tie him up and throw him in the trunk, and then drive him to where-ever we traded him just to get us the cup.


Ideally this is what I'd do, if I could write my "perfect" scenario for the Flyers. First I'd trade Lupul, Carle and a conditional 2011 2nd for J-Bo (condition being that if we re-sign J-Bo then the 2011 2nd becomes a 2010 1st) at this year's deadline. JVR is signed at the end of his college season this year and we head into the playoffs with the following lineup:

Gags - Briere - Knuble (we need Gags and Knuble to offset Brieres defensive liability)
Giroux - Carter - Hartnell
JVR - Richards - Upshall
Cote - Powe - Asham

Timonen - Parent
Boumeester - Coburn
Albert - Jones
Kukkonen/Sbisa (once his season is over)

Biron/Nitty



In the off-season I re-sign J-Bo, Nitty, Upshall and Knuble and I trade JVR and Nodl/Marshall/Bodrov/Bourdon for Scneider and a 2009 1st and I trade Alberts for a 3rd/4th in 09. In the draft we have pick #21 (from Van in the JVR deal) and the #23 (ours), 0 2nds, 3 3rds, 1 4th (maybe none if Alberts conditions are met), 1 5th, 2 6ths and 2 7ths. We draft Kyle Palmieri (C) with pick #21, trade pick #23 to NYI for their 2009 2nd (pick # 31)and Leafs 2009 2nd (previously aquired, pick # 37), draft Pasquale/Stacjer (goalie) at #31, draft Kreider (LW) with pick #37, I take all 3 3rds and take a chance on players playing over-seas, after that whatever.

Next season we have:

Giroux - Carter - Hartnell as a top line
Gagne - Briere - Knuble as a solid 2nd
Upshall - Richards - Powe/Nodl as a scoring shutdown 3rd line
Who cares about the 4th line, we can make it up with whatever

Timonen - Parent
Jbo - Coburn
Jones - Bodrov (he finally comes over)
Syvret/Ratchuk/Guenin/whatever for 7th dman

Nitty/Scneider with Schneider taking full time duties once he's ready

After next season Jones is let go, his money goes to re-signing Coburn and Sbisa takes Jones' spot on the roster.

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02-28-2009, 12:12 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
To move or not to move JVR for JayBo or ChrisPro:
Jesus Christ.

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Old
02-28-2009, 12:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Trilliam Shakesbeer View Post
Jesus Christ.
Haha, I thought it was pretty clever.

I would've gone with C-Pro personally.

And no, trading for Pronger or Bouwmeester does not guarantee us a Cup, but it certainly gives us a fantastic shot. What if the rumours are true that we don't have to trade JVR to acquire them? Is trading Carle and Lupul really mortgaging the future to win now? I don't think so.

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02-28-2009, 12:35 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
The Flyers were given 8 pp chances, TWO 5 on 3's in the 2nd period totalling a litttle over 2 minutes. The Flyers were more then given the chances to win the game in regulation and they couldnt get it done.
I am not gonna use the "its the refs fault" card for this game.
The Upshall call in OT was tough but it happens. The Flyers had their chances and didnt take advantage.
Time to move on and get ready for Sunday.



yeah Stevens did. They got cute when they got the first 2 goals.

frustrating, but consitering everything I will take the point.


yep, smoked Kostitsyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
No, sorry, you're wrong. Not a soul here should complain about the refs who gave us 8 PP's and 2 5-on-3's. They had a power play with 10 minutes left. If you want to complain about the Upshall penalty being a bad call, that's fine. To say the refs handed the Habs the game is incorrect. There never is a penalty to call in OT if the Flyers score on a PP or two. The power play had one of its worst games of the season.
You guys apparently didn't read the first line. Because you guys are using stats to argue with a drunken idiot (at least I was at the time, I've reverted back to idiot).

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02-28-2009, 12:38 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Haha, I thought it was pretty clever.

I would've gone with C-Pro personally.

And no, trading for Pronger or Bouwmeester does not guarantee us a Cup, but it certainly gives us a fantastic shot. What if the rumours are true that we don't have to trade JVR to acquire them? Is trading Carle and Lupul really mortgaging the future to win now? I don't think so.
Hell I'd even trade them coburn instead of Carle except that it doesn't work for us salary-wise. Carle is no slouch player, he's still only 24, one year younger than J-Bo. He CAN play on their top pairing once J-Bo is gone, he CAN run their PP from the point, he just doesn't do any of them as well a Boumeester. However, he's still a solid dman and he WILL still get better. Ideally you'd want him running you 2nd pairing and 2nd PP unit but on a lesser team, he CAN play up one level. Lupul right now is a solid 2nd line wing, only 25 yrs old, and he too WILL improve, possible to play wing on their 1st line. Add to this our 2010 1st if we re-sign J-Bo and you have 3 first rnd picks for J-Bo, that's not bad return especially when 2 of the 3 picks have already proven themselves at the NHL level.

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02-28-2009, 01:00 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Yeah, this is HFBoards where everyone wants to win later. I've seen people say they'd rather keep JVR and win 5 Cups in the magical future than win one Cup this year. Dumb.
No kidding. Win later, but win whine and moan when we don't win now.

I don't get it, I don't think I ever will.

I made it VERY clear that I didn't think any of the three guys (JBo/Pronger/Backstrom) guarantee us a Cup. Obviously not! What any of the three simply do, is increase our odds.

Call me crazy, but I think this is simple arithmetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
It's not like trading for Pronger or J-Bouw guarantees us for a cup.
Can you find me a post (or few) where somebody says it does? I think we've all made it pretty clear, nothing is for certain, but when you have a legitimate chance to add a player of this magnitude...you 'try' and jump at the opportunity.

Quote:
It just screws us over for the future. In the cap world, you keep your window open as long as possible, why limit ours to this year?
You obviously clear the room to take on the player...

This is NOT rocket science FlyHigh.

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02-28-2009, 01:11 PM
  #63
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02-28-2009, 01:17 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Haha, I thought it was pretty clever.

I would've gone with C-Pro personally.

And no, trading for Pronger or Bouwmeester does not guarantee us a Cup, but it certainly gives us a fantastic shot. What if the rumours are true that we don't have to trade JVR to acquire them? Is trading Carle and Lupul really mortgaging the future to win now? I don't think so.
I think it would make us a better team both this year, next year, and going forward. I also think it's a deal that makes some sense for Florida to consider...as they get two good players (if overpaid a bit) that are young and not going anywhere.

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02-28-2009, 01:25 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Step 1: star forwards
Step 2: cap space
Step 3: ...
Step 4: PROFIT
OMFG, I get it. That was a great episode with Tweek and the underpants gnomes.

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Old
02-28-2009, 01:29 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
You guys apparently didn't read the first line. Because you guys are using stats to argue with a drunken idiot (at least I was at the time, I've reverted back to idiot).
yeah i read it now, last night(early this morning) I was drinking and a bit tired and when I do that I have a tendancy to totally not pay attention. I get your point now.

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02-28-2009, 02:01 PM
  #67
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I noticed a post where chaoss says Hartnell embellished a play too much. Same thing here, when a Flyer 'embellishes', it's all fine and dandy...when Crosby 'embellishes', he's a diver and disgrace to the game. I'm noticing this more and more around here. There's nothing wrong with wearing orange tinted glasses...but let's all call a spade a spade.
I know people won't like this when I say it but Bill Barber was known for diving.


part about diving starts around 3:20
These "legends of hockey" clips on youtube are great

Thanks
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Last edited by ilovetheflyers8: 02-28-2009 at 02:10 PM.
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02-28-2009, 02:04 PM
  #68
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I know people won't like this when I say it but Bill Barber was known for diving.


part about diving starts around 3:20
Here's the link as the video isn't coming up I guess because the board is getting more visitors due to the trade deadline coming up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hnns0uCebA
you need to fix that link, but yeah Barber was a notorious diver. No question about it.

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02-28-2009, 02:33 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Trilliam Shakesbeer View Post
Jesus Christ.


LOL

I laughed my ass off whilst typing that.

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02-28-2009, 02:37 PM
  #70
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I know people won't like this when I say it but Bill Barber was known for diving.
One of the true pioneers. Of course though, when a guy with the Flyers logo does it...it's for the team. When the opponent does it...it's a disgrace to the game and it's disgusting. Hartnell dives all the time.

So double standard...

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02-28-2009, 02:58 PM
  #71
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I would trade Lupul,Carle, and JVR for a signed to an extension Bouwmeester any day of the week.

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02-28-2009, 03:00 PM
  #72
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I would trade Lupul,Carle, and JVR for a signed to an extension Bouwmeester any day of the week.
If Bouwmeester is signed...the list of untouchables in that deal would basically be: Carter, Richards, and Timonen.

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02-28-2009, 03:04 PM
  #73
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I would trade Lupul,Carle, and JVR for a signed to an extension Bouwmeester any day of the week.
Anybody who wouldn't, I'd have to question their desire as a fan to win the Cup.

Quote:
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If Bouwmeester is signed...the list of untouchables in that deal would basically be: Carter, Richards, and Timonen.
110%.

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02-28-2009, 03:17 PM
  #74
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Well, take this for what it's worth but Eklund is reporting that any deal for J-bo isn't for him as a rental, basically Fla already has a signed extension in place and it would go with any team he's traded to. If this is true then I certainly don't think it's over payment of Lupul, Carle and a 09 1st. Supposedly Homer is balking at Fla demanding a 1st in addition to the players but who knows if he's just bluffing and trying to get them to take less or maybe to return a 2nd. Not having a 1st or a 2nd in a draft class as strong as when we drafted Carter and Richards hurts.

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02-28-2009, 03:19 PM
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Well, take this for what it's worth but Eklund is reporting that any deal for J-bo isn't for him as a rental, basically Fla already has a signed extension in place and it would go with any team he's traded to. If this is true then I certainly don't think it's over payment of Lupul, Carle and a 09 1st. Supposedly Homer is balking at Fla demanding a 1st in addition to the players but who knows if he's just bluffing and trying to get them to take less or maybe to return a 2nd. Not having a 1st or a 2nd in a draft class as strong as when we drafted Carter and Richards hurts.
We're a terribly young team already...and we'd be getting a signed 25 year-old 30 minute a night defenseman. I really wouldn't be too stressed out about not having a 1st this year.

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