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Roster moves -- February 28, 2009

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Old
02-28-2009, 02:26 PM
  #26
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Well what would be the point of that? Don't you HAVE to be "under the cap" only by gametime? The only punishment for being over the cap is forfeiting the game, correct?

Just wouldn't make sense to have to send down Giroux for an off day, and bring him back up for the next game. Unless its to play in an AHL game for conditioning...which I think is the last thing Giroux really needs right now.
Basically, every transaction is considered to occure at exactly 5pm est. You must be in cap compliance at that time EVERY DAY OF THE SEASON, not just on game days. This move also affects Giroux NOT being able to practive with the Flyers from right now until the time he is recalled. Any player practicing with their NHL club is considered to be on the active roaster, at lease for players who were sent to their minor league team. LTIR players are different, they aren't actually on loan to the Phantoms like Giroux technically is.

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02-28-2009, 02:28 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by twenty2 View Post
I just died a little inside. I thought we could make it the whole season.
Well when you actually carry 8 dmen on the active roster all season long then there really shouldn't be any reason to recall another one from your minor league team.

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02-28-2009, 02:32 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Judging by how the defense has been handled this season, you could have fooled me.

Apparently, others were amused too
Parent tore his labrum, Jones blew his hip apart...

Berard didn't hack it, despite what some thought otherwise. If he was an NHL capable defenseman, why is he in the KHL? You know, much like Vaanenen was last season?


That left us with what...?

Timonen - Coburn
Kukkonen - Vaananen
Eminger - (AHL Player)

...Yikes!

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02-28-2009, 02:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Basically, every transaction is considered to occure at exactly 5pm est. You must be in cap compliance at that time EVERY DAY OF THE SEASON, not just on game days. This move also affects Giroux NOT being able to practive with the Flyers from right now until the time he is recalled. Any player practicing with their NHL club is considered to be on the active roaster, at lease for players who were sent to their minor league team. LTIR players are different, they aren't actually on loan to the Phantoms like Giroux technically is.
Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up.

Out of curiosity, do you know what the punishment is if you are over the cap on a non-gameday?

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02-28-2009, 02:36 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Oh ok, thanks for clearing that up.

Out of curiosity, do you know what the punishment is if you are over the cap on a non-gameday?
Discretion of the commissioner including fines, suspension of GM, forfeits of games and/or draft picks.

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02-28-2009, 02:38 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Discretion of the commissioner including fines, suspension of GM, forfeits of games and/or draft picks.
I'm sure it's more the latter than anything.

If it were fines, I'd hazard to guess that the Flyers would pay the fine(s) and count the losses.

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02-28-2009, 02:43 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Parent tore his labrum, Jones blew his hip apart...
We gave Jones a dumb contract long before that.

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Berard didn't hack it, despite what some thought otherwise. If he was an NHL capable defenseman, why is he in the KHL?
There are plenty of NHL capable players in the KHL.

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You know, much like Vaanenen was last season?
If Vaananen would have waited a week, he wouldn't have been in Sweden. At least then we would have known whether or not he would have been here this year.

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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Discretion of the commissioner including fines, suspension of GM, forfeits of games and/or draft picks.
They weren't going to make us forfeit games or draft picks.

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02-28-2009, 02:48 PM
  #33
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I know it's useless to ask now because obviously Holmgren has himself under the cap...but if he did go over the cap for Sunday and the league suspended him...

would that stop the team from being allowed to make any trade deadline moves? or is that all relatively to the length of the suspension? i've never heard of a GM getting suspended before.

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02-28-2009, 02:52 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
They weren't going to make us forfeit games or draft picks.
How do you know? Are you personal friends with Bettman?

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02-28-2009, 02:52 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
We gave Jones a dumb contract long before that.
Jones could be signed at the league minimum and some of you guys would complain, I'm not even going to go further. There is nothing wrong with Randy Jones, peoples hatrid runs so deep it's ridiculous. 2-3 games ago he wasn't even on the ice and people were freaking out on the GDT blaming him for the goal...c'mon.

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There are plenty of NHL capable players in the KHL.
And then when Holmgren to the KHL instead of getting an NHL defenseman people would be up in arms that he doesn't win by getting the best player possible (cap room aside) for the better of the team. Alberts is an NHL defenseman, like it or not. Those who are playing in the KHL, are there for a reason.

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If Vaananen would have waited a week, he wouldn't have been in Sweden. At least then we would have known whether or not he would have been here this year.
I disagree.

Of note, he's not in the lineup for the Canucks tonight. They'd rather play O'Brien. And no it's not toughness, they have Hordichuk up front.

Ossi played decent for us, but he is far from the be all, end all.


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They weren't going to make us forfeit games or draft picks.
I wouldn't be so sure of this. I'm sure Snider would have no problem writing a cheque for a fine...losing points/games and picks is another story.

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02-28-2009, 03:28 PM
  #36
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Opus, you can disagree if you want. It was Holmgren who said that he wanted to sign Vaananen last year - not me. Apparently he was after a defenseman who was not up to standard for this team, by the guy who was on the radar for an entire year. One can infer from that what they will.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
How do you know? Are you personal friends with Bettman?
It wouldn't have happened. The Flyers could have filed a grievance or injunction or whatever the process is. The league let the Devils get away with it, so there is precident for a double standard, and the Flyers could likely sue the league. Not saying that is absolutely what would have happened, but the league wasn't going to make the Flyers forfeit games.

Plus, what are they going to claim? Briere was good to go? Briere was fine the last time he came back to play and got hurt less than a period into the game. There's no way the league would have been able to do anything. We got into the argument the last time Briere was going to come back, and the consensus on the board was that 'there's no way doctors would have known Briere was not fine to play, and the only person who would have known is Briere.' There would be a whole lot of spinning going on for that.

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02-28-2009, 03:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It wouldn't have happened. The Flyers could have filed a grievance or injunction or whatever the process is. The league let the Devils get away with it, so there is precident for a double standard, and the Flyers could likely sue the league. Not saying that is absolutely what would have happened, but the league wasn't going to make the Flyers forfeit games.

Plus, what are they going to claim? Briere was good to go? Briere was fine the last time he came back to play and got hurt less than a period into the game. There's no way the league would have been able to do anything.
After the way we've already been treated by the league, you're basically playing with fire in this situation, I'd personally want to stay away.

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02-28-2009, 03:34 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
After the way we've already been treated by the league, you're basically playing with fire in this situation, I'd personally want to stay away.
Aren't you one of my fellow conspiracy-theory debunkers? Unless Briere was to come out and say "I was fine back in November, and they wouldn't let me play." There is no ground for the NHL to stand on since they already let one team get away with letting a player sit on LTIR for half of a season when he admitted he was completely healthy and was told that he wasn't going to play until the end of the season. I'm speaking of Richard Matvichuk.

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02-28-2009, 03:38 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Aren't you one of my fellow conspiracy-theory debunkers? Unless Briere was to come out and say "I was fine back in November, and they wouldn't let me play." There is no ground for the NHL to stand on since they already let one team get away with letting a player sit on LTIR for half of a season when he admitted he was completely healthy and was told that he wasn't going to play until the end of the season. I'm speaking of Richard Matvichuk.
I don't believe the refs are biased against us (we're just undisciplined), but the we do have a bad reputation and it's already everywhere that the league is watching us very closely.

I mean, this is the league that gave Upshall a call after he had a questionable hit, but to my knowledge, hasn't called anyone about repeated boarding incidents on our players.

So I don't think they'd let us get away with it personally because the Flyers do have a much higher profile than the Devils and there would be a lot more outrage if we did it.

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02-28-2009, 03:39 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Opus, you can disagree if you want. It was Holmgren who said that he wanted to sign Vaananen last year - not me. Apparently he was after a defenseman who was not up to standard for this team, by the guy who was on the radar for an entire year. One can infer from that what they will.
I just have a hard time believing that if Holmgren made it known he wanted Vaanenen a Flyer, and he still opted to go overseas to the KHL. Something, somewhere...it just doesn't add up for me.

Quote:
It wouldn't have happened. The Flyers could have filed a grievance or injunction or whatever the process is. The league let the Devils get away with it, so there is precident for a double standard, and the Flyers could likely sue the league. Not saying that is absolutely what would have happened, but the league wasn't going to make the Flyers forfeit games.
Humour me. What do YOU think the league would have done?

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02-28-2009, 03:50 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I don't believe the refs are biased against us (we're just undisciplined), but the we do have a bad reputation and it's already everywhere that the league is watching us very closely.

I mean, this is the league that gave Upshall a call after he had a questionable hit, but to my knowledge, hasn't called anyone about repeated boarding incidents on our players.

So I don't think they'd let us get away with it personally because the Flyers do have a much higher profile than the Devils and there would be a lot more outrage if we did it.
You're taking something based on conjecture and comparing it to something clearly spelled out in the rules, which the NHL willingly looked the other way on.

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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I just have a hard time believing that if Holmgren made it known he wanted Vaanenen a Flyer, and he still opted to go overseas to the KHL. Something, somewhere...it just doesn't add up for me.
He signed before Holmgren was prepared to give a contract offer. I believe he said that Vaananen wanted to work on his game in Sweden, and come back after a season. That and he wanted to stick to his commitment he made. I'd rather have a guy like that than someone who changes his mind (Radulov).



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Humour me. What do YOU think the league would have done?
A fine, if anything. Again, the league has no footing. They let someone get away with it, and then they can't even prove that Briere is even healthy, unless he admits it.

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02-28-2009, 03:53 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
So finally there it is. What Holmgren wholeheartedly tried to avoid all year long. I knew it took every ounce in his body to make this move, a little part of him died inside, but he finally recalled a defenseman from the Phantoms. Proving that we DO have defensemen that are OUR property.

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02-28-2009, 03:55 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
He signed before Holmgren was prepared to give a contract offer. I believe he said that Vaananen wanted to work on his game in Sweden, and come back after a season. That and he wanted to stick to his commitment he made. I'd rather have a guy like that than someone who changes his mind (Radulov).
Sure. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's move one from this, okay?


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A fine, if anything. Again, the league has no footing. They let someone get away with it, and then they can't even prove that Briere is even healthy.
A fine? Not a hope. Sorry, I don't by it for one second.

The Flyers are spending less money since the salary cap was put in place, are they not? Suffice to say, if it were just a fine...Snider would be more than happy to get out his cheque book and write Mr. Bettman a cheque.

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02-28-2009, 03:57 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Humour me. What do YOU think the league would have done?
Im gonna agree with GKJ on this one, there is no way the league was going to forfeit games. I jsut dont see it. I mean how is this league viewed already? A move like this would put the NHL into more of a laughing stock that view it as. Does Bettman "have it in for the Flyers?" Who the hell knows, but I am just not seeing a case where the league would do this. 5 million dollar fine(or whatever it is) yes. anything else? extemely doubtful
Im gonna say this right now. If the league starts making teams forfeit games(us or anyone else) over this that would be it for me. I would be done. the league does this and Bettman, the NHL can kiss my ass. It will be a flatout ****ing joke.

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02-28-2009, 04:05 PM
  #45
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Yeah, but why run the risk in the first place? I don't even see what we're arguing at this point.

We shouldn't go over the cap, we haven't gone over it yet, end of story.

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02-28-2009, 04:10 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
Im gonna agree with GKJ on this one, there is no way the league was going to forfeit games. I jsut dont see it. I mean how is this league viewed already? A move like this would put the NHL into more of a laughing stock that view it as. Does Bettman "have it in for the Flyers?" Who the hell knows, but I am just not seeing a case where the league would do this. 5 million dollar fine(or whatever it is) yes. anything else? extemely doubtful
Im gonna say this right now. If the league starts making teams forfeit games(us or anyone else) over this that would be it for me. I would be done. the league does this and Bettman, the NHL can kiss my ass. It will be a flatout ****ing joke.
From the CBA, for teams going ever the cap...

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Fines of $1M-$5M, forfeiture of draft picks, forfeiture of games, suspension of team employees, etc
Why play russian roulette?

And not for nothing, but why put the rules in place if you're not going to enforce them...that would be a joke too.

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02-28-2009, 04:16 PM
  #47
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It would be the first time they've ever taken action on it to anyone, if I recall, if not it's happened once. To start going to the forfeiture of games and draft picks is just a tad over the top.

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02-28-2009, 04:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It would be the first time they've ever taken action on it to anyone, if I recall, if not it's happened once. To start going to the forfeiture of games and draft picks is just a tad over the top.
Fair enough. Let's all agree for arguments sake that it wouldn't be that. Cool? As a fan base, in general, 'we' like to complain about the unfair treatment that the Flyers get from the league. Pulling a stunt like this (intentionally going over the cap to call the leagues bluff) would stupid, idiotic and irresponsible. Certainly wouldn't be doing ourselves any favours in the process either.

Can we all agree on that?

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02-28-2009, 04:27 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
Fair enough. Let's all agree for arguments sake that it wouldn't be that. Cool? As a fan base, in general, 'we' like to complain about the unfair treatment that the Flyers get from the league. Pulling a stunt like this (intentionally going over the cap to call the leagues bluff) would stupid, idiotic and irresponsible. Certainly wouldn't be doing ourselves any favours in the process either.

Can we all agree on that?
I agree that the Cap management has been well, shoddy, terrible, use any adjetive you want at best. But to say that for a team that hadnt been cap hell before playing that game of "Russian roullete" as you would say to say you will forfeit Sundays game against New Jersey would be as GKJ said a tad over the top.
Has Holmer done a pisspoor job in this whole mess? absoultely. Will we have to forfeit games over it? No freaking way.
I am trying to look at the big picture here opus. I realize what it says in the CBA. I get it. They had to put some kind of strict rule in there to keep teams from blatantly going over the cap and taking advantage of the rules. I just refuse to buy into that the league would start making teams forfeit games over this. fines, maybe lose a draft pick ok. anything else? I am not seeing it.

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02-28-2009, 04:29 PM
  #50
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They probably would have started with a fine of $3-5M to the Flyers, and suspending Holmgren until after the trade deadline. The Flyers would still be allowed to make moves, but Holmgren could have NO contact with the Flyers.

The only way they go to the forfeit games is if you do it on a game day IMO, and the only way they go draft picks is if you aren't in the playoff race so the draft pick is more painful than the loss of a game.

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