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PART 2 -- #60 -- Canadiens at Flyers -- February 27, 2009

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Old
02-28-2009, 04:25 PM
  #76
Opus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're a terribly young team already...and we'd be getting a signed 25 year-old 30 minute a night defenseman. I really wouldn't be too stressed out about not having a 1st this year.
Assuming we'd lose Knuble...Timonen and Briere become the oldest players with Hartnell 3rd oldest???

(off the top of my head, if that's correct)



Yeah, I wouldn't be concerned.

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02-28-2009, 04:30 PM
  #77
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Look, I am all for getting J-Bouw, but can someone explain to me how the hell this is going to work with the cap?

I mean, if we get him and sign him for 6.5-7 per year, then we are going to be in huge trouble for Coburn's deal.

Briere 6.5
Richards 5.75
Gagne 5.25
Carter 5
Hartnell 4.2
Kimmo 6.33
Coburn 5
J-Bouw 6.75

That's 44.78 million.

You're basically looking at sacrificing everyone else on the roster and there's not even a goalie on that team.

Heck, if the cap eventually does drop to 53-54 mill, that's less than 10 million to sign a goalie, 3 defensemen, and 7 forwards.

You're basically giving us a 2 year window before we have to trade everybody and a lot of the guys on that list have NTCs.


Last edited by FlyHigh: 02-28-2009 at 04:42 PM.
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02-28-2009, 04:41 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If Bouwmeester is signed...the list of untouchables in that deal would basically be: Carter, Richards, and Timonen.
oh I agree. and as much as I love Gagne I would trade him for a signed Bouwmeester.

a top 3 of Timonen/Bouwmeester/Coburn?

how many teams in the East match that? well unless Boston gets Pronger, but yeah.

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02-28-2009, 04:43 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Look, I am all for getting J-Bouw, but can someone explain to me how the hell this is going to work with the cap?

I mean, if we get him and sign him for 6.5-7 per year, then we are going to be in huge trouble for Coburn's deal.

Briere 6.5
Richards 5.75
Gagne 5.25
Carter 5
Hartnell 4.2
Kimmo 6.33
Coburn 5
J-Bouw 6.75

That's 44.78 million.

You're basically looking at sacrificing everyone else on the roster and there's not even a goalie on that team.

Heck, if the cap eventually does drop to 53-54 mill, that's less than 10 million to sign a goalie, 3 defensemen, and 7 forwards.

You're basically giving us a 2 year window before we have to trade everybody and a lot of the guys on that list have NTCs.
you are a buzz killington

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02-28-2009, 04:44 PM
  #80
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Look, I am all for getting J-Bouw, but can someone explain to me how the hell this is going to work with the cap?

I mean, if we get him and sign him for 6.5-7 per year, then we are going to be in huge trouble for Coburn's deal.

Briere 6.5
Richards 5.75
Gagne 5.25
Carter 5
Hartnell 4.2
Kimmo 6.33
Coburn 5
J-Bouw 6.75

That's 44.78 million.

You're basically looking at sacrificing everyone else on the roster and there's not even a goalie on that team.

Heck, if the cap goes eventually does drop to 53-54 mill, that's less than 10 million to sign a goalie, 3 defensemen, and 7 forwards.

You're basically giving us a 2 year window before we have to trade everybody and a lot of the guys on that list have NTCs.

First off, Coburn isn't up until AFTER next season, and second, there's little chance he'll be getting 5 mil. He'll still be an RFA so expect soemthing along the lines of 3-3.5 mil. Not a huge difference but still some. Third, we will be out from under Jones' contract by that time so his money goes to re-signing Coburn. Sbisa or Bodrov slide in to take Jones' spot on the roster and the combined salary or Sbisa/Bodrov plus an extended Coburn is about = current Coburn + Jones.

Next, I'd trade JVR for Schneider and an 09. I let Biron walk and re-sign Nitty for 2-2.5 mil. We pay about 3 mil for 2 goalies for the next 2 years insread of nearly 5 mil like we are right now.

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02-28-2009, 04:44 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Look, I am all for getting J-Bouw, but can someone explain to me how the hell this is going to work with the cap?

I mean, if we get him and sign him for 6.5-7 per year, then we are going to be in huge trouble for Coburn's deal.

Briere 6.5
Richards 5.75
Gagne 5.25
Carter 5
Hartnell 4.2
Kimmo 6.33
Coburn 5
J-Bouw 6.75

That's 44.78 million.

You're basically looking at sacrificing everyone else on the roster and there's not even a goalie on that team.

Heck, if the cap eventually does drop to 53-54 mill, that's less than 10 million to sign a goalie, 3 defensemen, and 7 forwards.

You're basically giving us a 2 year window before we have to trade everybody and a lot of the guys on that list have NTCs.
Lupul and Carle make more/same as than JBo would make.

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02-28-2009, 05:02 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
you are a buzz killington
Yeah, it's my curse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky
First off, Coburn isn't up until AFTER next season, and second, there's little chance he'll be getting 5 mil. He'll still be an RFA so expect soemthing along the lines of 3-3.5 mil. Not a huge difference but still some. Third, we will be out from under Jones' contract by that time so his money goes to re-signing Coburn. Sbisa or Bodrov slide in to take Jones' spot on the roster and the combined salary or Sbisa/Bodrov plus an extended Coburn is about = current Coburn + Jones.

Next, I'd trade JVR for Schneider and an 09. I let Biron walk and re-sign Nitty for 2-2.5 mil. We pay about 3 mil for 2 goalies for the next 2 years insread of nearly 5 mil like we are right now.
RFA is the new UFA. I mean, Carter got 5 mill as an RFA, everybody's overpaying their guys now, Fleury got 5 mill for a playoff run.

If Coburn puts up 40 points and a +15 next year (which is fairly likely) while playing 25 minutes per night in all situations (also fairly likely), he'll be getting the big bucks. The one hope is that Coburn's agents appear to be absolutely retarded (considering his current contract), so maybe Holmgren thinks he can ink Coburn on the cheap, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Also, I have a huge man-crush on Schneider, but JVR for Schneider would be an awful, awful, awful trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus
Lupul and Carle make more/same as than JBo would make.
Yeah, this year we are A-okay, no problem with that.

But in 2 years, we'd be screwed. I know you and I disagree about Lupul (I believe most people, including Jester, fall on my side of the argument), but we need to either trade him for no salary (preferable) or salary that expires after next season.

I mean, with the difference in J-Bouw's and Carle's salaries, we could keep Upshall, Nodl, and Marshall or another 1 mill forward.

Obviously, J-Bouw is twice the player Carle is, but at this point, it's about filling out the roster.

If you invest 45 million in 8 guys, you won't be able to fill out your roster, it's just not possible especially if you don't have a goalie signed. 42 million in 8 guys isn't much better, but it basically gives you space for 3 more players and we have enough young guys that we can fill those spots from within.

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02-28-2009, 05:06 PM
  #83
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It would basically be JVR for Schneider and a Richards-type player with the 1st we'd be getting from Vanc. I think that's pretty fair return for a guy who is still considered a top 5 prospect in the world.

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02-28-2009, 05:08 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah, this year we are A-okay, no problem with that.

But in 2 years, we'd be screwed. I know you and I disagree about Lupul (I believe most people, including Jester, fall on my side of the argument), but we need to either trade him for no salary (preferable) or salary that expires after next season.
I know that that's what we have to do (preferably) for Lupul, but I just don't see that happening. There are few teams that can add that salary w/o sending some back the other way. The only teams that are iny position to add that cap, are a few bottom feeders...and I don't see them throwing picks away for Lupul.

Like I said before, I hope I'm wrong.

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02-28-2009, 05:09 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
It would basically be JVR for Schneider and a Richards-type player with the 1st we'd be getting from Vanc. I think that's pretty fair return for a guy who is still considered a top 5 prospect in the world.
A 1st is guaranteed to be a Richards-type player?

Richards is one of the top-25 players in the league, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Vancouver is going to have a low 1st rounder anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus
I know that that's what we have to do (preferably) for Lupul, but I just don't see that happening. There are few teams that can add that salary w/o sending some back the other way. The only teams that are iny position to add that cap, are a few bottom feeders...and I don't see them throwing picks away for Lupul.

Like I said before, I hope I'm wrong.
We'll see, just remember that not every team is as deep as we are.

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02-28-2009, 05:12 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
We'll see, just remember that not every team is as deep as we are.
Yes, this is very true. And other teams don't attract UFA's like others. These two things do work in our favour, agreed.

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02-28-2009, 05:15 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
A 1st is guaranteed to be a Richards-type player?

Richards is one of the top-25 players in the league, let's not get ahead of ourselves here, Vancouver is going to have a low 1st rounder anyways.



We'll see, just remember that not every team is as deep as we are.

Right now it would be the 21st pick. Getzlaf went 19th, Mark Stuart went 21st, Kesler 23rd, Richards 24th, Perry 28th. No, there is no guarrentee that any player we take with their pick would turn into the next Mike Richards but there's also no guarrentte that JVR ISN'T the next Alexander Daigle either. I believe it's fair value, that's all I'm saying.

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02-28-2009, 07:45 PM
  #88
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I'd just like to point out that the Canadiens are up 3-0 over the Sharks in 1st period.


...carry on.

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02-28-2009, 07:49 PM
  #89
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I'd just like to point out that the Canadiens are up 3-0 over the Sharks in 1st period.


...carry on.
yup, and the goalie some people want next season Brain Boucher has gotten *****slapped.

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02-28-2009, 10:34 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I mean, if we get him and sign him for 6.5-7 per year, then we are going to be in huge trouble for Coburn's deal.
Then trade Coburn for picks and prospects, if it becomes necessary. I love Coburn's potential, but I don't think he's ever going to be the type of player that Bouwmeester is...and still developing into.

You have a team with Timonen and Bouwmeester stabilizing the D...you have a lot of options, and a lot of flexibility.

Hard decisions will have to be made going forward regardless of whether Bouwmeester is here or not. It is what it is...but I'd rather make those decisions with Bouwmeester around than not.

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03-01-2009, 01:11 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Then trade Coburn for picks and prospects, if it becomes necessary. I love Coburn's potential, but I don't think he's ever going to be the type of player that Bouwmeester is...and still developing into.

You have a team with Timonen and Bouwmeester stabilizing the D...you have a lot of options, and a lot of flexibility.

Hard decisions will have to be made going forward regardless of whether Bouwmeester is here or not. It is what it is...but I'd rather make those decisions with Bouwmeester around than not.
Which is why I'd just deal Coburn for J-Bouw right now and add on a little.

I mean, if teams realize that we have to trade Coburn, we're going to get back 50 cents on the dollar.

You're the one crying about asset management, but trading for J-Bouw without resolving Coburn's future is just that, bad asset management because you're going to let a young guy with a lot of potential go for little/nothing.

At least adding Coburn into the deal would allow us to keep JVR who's realistically a lot better than anything we'd get for Coburn.

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03-01-2009, 01:31 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Right now it would be the 21st pick. Getzlaf went 19th, Mark Stuart went 21st, Kesler 23rd, Richards 24th, Perry 28th. No, there is no guarrentee that any player we take with their pick would turn into the next Mike Richards but there's also no guarrentte that JVR ISN'T the next Alexander Daigle either. I believe it's fair value, that's all I'm saying.
You do understand that the 2003 NHL draft is one the the best drafts ever in NHL history. In all the other drafts this decade there has never been that many superstar/allstar players in the first round. A 21st pick in this years draft is not going to be a getzlaf, richards etc... most likely.

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03-01-2009, 01:35 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Which is why I'd just deal Coburn for J-Bouw right now and add on a little.

I mean, if teams realize that we have to trade Coburn, we're going to get back 50 cents on the dollar.

You're the one crying about asset management, but trading for J-Bouw without resolving Coburn's future is just that, bad asset management because you're going to let a young guy with a lot of potential go for little/nothing.

At least adding Coburn into the deal would allow us to keep JVR who's realistically a lot better than anything we'd get for Coburn.
Coburn is cheap. Trading Coburn doesn't help us in the immediate in dealing with Bouwmeester's salary, and Coburn is NOT a salary problem next year.

Carle is.

Carle and Lupul is a big help in salary, and a deal that makes perfect sense for the Panthers to give a lot of consideration to.

And this 50 cent on the dollar thing is getting out of hand...Teams will be willing to trade for...and competing with one another in a trade for Coburn. We're not talking about a bad contract, we'd be talking about dealing him (likely following next season) when teams could sign him to a long-term deal.

If Holmgren can't get value then...then he sucks at his job.

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03-01-2009, 07:08 AM
  #94
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I wonder what Bouwmeester's obsessive hockey Dad thinks of Philadelphia.

Obviously, I'd think he'd prefer Philly to his son skating on that mud (and obscurity) in Florida... but I'd be curious as to whether the Flyers would get the approval of Papa Bouwmeester.

Poor Florida. They'd to have to pay him millions over market value to lure him away from the celebrity of playing far north.


Last edited by Readyrock: 03-01-2009 at 07:32 AM.
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