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Why do not they walk away from the award? If there was a team that needed goaltending so badly as to pay $3mil for a not-so-proven goalie, then Weekes would've been off the market by now. I think that by refusing the award Flames can negotiate down to a more reasonable 2mil or so... The only downfall would be that this approach might piss off Kipper.
Please don't tell me you're trying to equate Weekes and Kiprusoff...
If the Flames walked away from the award they'd lose him for nothing.
Please don't tell me you're trying to equate Weekes and Kiprusoff...
If the Flames walked away from the award they'd lose him for nothing.
What an assinine suggestion.
I am not trying to equate them, because I would rather have Weekes than Kipper.
Do not get too excited, it is simple percentages. Kipper did not prove a whole lot in the NHL. Many goalies can be "in the zone" for a period of time, but what separates a real top goalie from the "could have beens" is the consistency. Kipper did not have a chance to show that. In addition to that, he wasn't scouted all that heavily by other teams, so it remains to be seen if there are cracks in his game other teams can exploit. If I was the GM in need of goaltending, I would give Weekes a call the minute he became available, and solved it right there not waiting for see if the Flames walk away from Kipper. That did not happen, so I would think that all the teams are rather happy with their goaltending right now. Regardless of how high you may think of Kipper, he cannot be called a top ten goalie in the NHL. Not yet.
I am not trying to equate them, because I would rather have Weekes than Kipper.
Do not get too excited, it is simple percentages. Kipper did not prove a whole lot in the NHL. Many goalies can be "in the zone" for a period of time, but what separates a real top goalie from the "could have beens" is the consistency. Kipper did not have a chance to show that. In addition to that, he wasn't scouted all that heavily by other teams, so it remains to be seen if there are cracks in his game other teams can exploit. If I was the GM in need of goaltending, I would give Weekes a call the minute he became available, and solved it right there not waiting for see if the Flames walk away from Kipper. That did not happen, so I would think that all the teams are rather happy with their goaltending right now. Regardless of how high you may think of Kipper, he cannot be called a top ten goalie in the NHL. Not yet.
Kipper proved everything he had to, to get the award he did... I don't understand why so many people are having trouble with this award???
it's not the arbitrator that decides what the market value of the players will be... they look at the market created by the gms - by the teams - and use that to decide on what players get.... a process like this can never be perfect... you will always have players that the arbitrator just can't pigeon-hole into other players' market value.
but for the most part it's a process that relies on what teams are generally paying players out there.... and Kipper got what he deserved according to that.
he didn't play a full season... but he did *prove* he's a starting goalie in today's NHL... the fact that he didn't play a fullseason, he failed to prove he can be a consistent top end goalie, and as such he didn't get compensated for it.
He is at the low end of all starting goalies in the NHL - and that too on a 1yr contract, so he *will* have to prove everything again... and that's where he should be.... if he didn't have a great 39 games and set new records, then his award would be lower, as he wouldn't have necessarily proven he's a starting goalie calibre player.
but while he didn't prove enough to get the $4+mill that a lot of starters in recent years did, he proved enough to be considered a starter in this league.
and there is no doubt in my mind that if Calgary walked away from his award, he'd be signed up very quickly for at least (if not more) than what the award was for.
he didn't play a full season... but he did *prove* he's a starting goalie in today's NHL... the fact that he didn't play a fullseason, he failed to prove he can be a consistent top end goalie, and as such he didn't get compensated for it.
but while he didn't prove enough to get the $4+mill that a lot of starters in recent years did, he proved enough to be considered a starter in this league.
and there is no doubt in my mind that if Calgary walked away from his award, he'd be signed up very quickly for at least (if not more) than what the award was for.
How could he have proved to be a starting goalie if he hasn't played a full season yet (by definition required of a starting goalie, isn't it)? That's my point. As for records, Brian Boucher has set shutout record last season, is he a proven starter as well? (BTW, he also had an impresive playoff showing with the Flyers a few years back). And if there is a team that is looking for a proven (but by your own statement, not a top) starter, then why Weekes is still on the market?
How could he have proved to be a starting goalie if he hasn't played a full season yet (by definition required of a starting goalie, isn't it)? That's my point. As for records, Brian Boucher has set shutout record last season, is he a proven starter as well? (BTW, he also had an impresive playoff showing with the Flyers a few years back). And if there is a team that is looking for a proven (but by your own statement, not a top) starter, then why Weekes is still on the market?
He played 39 reg season games (.933) and 26 playoff games (.928 iirc). 65 games in total with a sv% over .930. Throw in he played the last 26 straight too. Sounds like enough games to effectively equate to a season. Its more games than a lot of starters played last year.
How could he have proved to be a starting goalie if he hasn't played a full season yet (by definition required of a starting goalie, isn't it)? That's my point. As for records, Brian Boucher has set shutout record last season, is he a proven starter as well? (BTW, he also had an impresive playoff showing with the Flyers a few years back). And if there is a team that is looking for a proven (but by your own statement, not a top) starter, then why Weekes is still on the market?
so now Boucher and Kipper are comparables?
Boucher had 5 great games last year... before that he struggled... after that he struggled...
and he gets his contract qualified at $2mill.
Kipper had 39 great games... the moment he became a starter he played great, right till the end of the season (forget playoffs as arbitration shouldn't factor in playoffs).... he took a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 6 yrs to the playoff rounds. The Flames didn't get much more contribution from the rest of the team than they have in previous years either - remember Iginla had a Lester season couple years back, which he did not last year... and the exact same team was not nearly as good with Turek in goal.
In 39 games, Kipper took that team to the playoffs. He easily had the biggest impact out of any player on that team in taking them to the postseason.
That proves that he has earned a bigger contract than Boucher has - on a 1-yr deal... Boucher got his original deal a few years ago, when he put up solid numbers. Since then outside a 5 game miracle, he's been average - and as such his contract has been qualified at the same amount.
If Kipper comes off his contract - making less than a $1mill more than Boucher, regressing from his season, he won't be making the same again.
Again, this is an arbitration process, therefore contracts around the league signed by RFAs are going to impact the arbitrators decisions.
He has proven enough to be placed at the bottom end of starting goalies. A few years ago, Boucher proved enough to be given a contract at the bottom end of starting goalies, and that's what his club gave him. Since then, that salary structure has changed - now the bottom end starters aren't getting $2mill a year, but $3mill a year... since the new deals for Turco, Vokoun, Thibualt, Theodore, Cloutier, Gigeure, Turek, Nabokov, etc have signed.
Going back to Boucher, if he had a season half as good as Kiprusoff last year, he would have gotten a raise as well on his $2mill deal, rather than being qualified for it.
Here's a link to all the goalie $$ in the league...
given those salaries, I don't see how a $2.9mill 1-yr award is unfair to give Kipper. If he had signed a multiyear deal by the team I could understand the complaint as he hasn't proven himself enough to earn a multiyear contract (and security)... but on a 1-yr deal, he's getting what he's earned.
Re-read what I said. I said that setting a record doesn't equate to being a proven goalie, and gave Boucher as an example. As for their status in my eyes, Boucher is quite a bit lower than Kipper, and I was surprised that Phoenix qualified him at 2 mil.
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Kipper had 39 great games... the moment he became a starter he played great, right till the end of the season (forget playoffs as arbitration shouldn't factor in playoffs).... he took a team that hadn't made the playoffs in 6 yrs to the playoff rounds.
The Flames didn't get much more contribution from the rest of the team than they have in previous years either - remember Iginla had a Lester season couple years back, which he did not last year... and the exact same team was not nearly as good with Turek in goal.
In 39 games, Kipper took that team to the playoffs. He easily had the biggest impact out of any player on that team in taking them to the postseason.
I cannot speak on who was more of a factor to bring the team into playoffs: Kipper, Iginla or Sutter. They have made many changes for better, and I would not rush to judgement and give most of the credit to Kipper.
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That proves that he has earned a bigger contract than Boucher has - on a 1-yr deal... Boucher got his original deal a few years ago, when he put up solid numbers. Since then outside a 5 game miracle, he's been average - and as such his contract has been qualified at the same amount.
If Kipper comes off his contract - making less than a $1mill more than Boucher, regressing from his season, he won't be making the same again.
Again, this is an arbitration process, therefore contracts around the league signed by RFAs are going to impact the arbitrators decisions.
He has proven enough to be placed at the bottom end of starting goalies. A few years ago, Boucher proved enough to be given a contract at the bottom end of starting goalies, and that's what his club gave him. Since then, that salary structure has changed - now the bottom end starters aren't getting $2mill a year, but $3mill a year... since the new deals for Turco, Vokoun, Thibualt, Theodore, Cloutier, Gigeure, Turek, Nabokov, etc have signed.
Going back to Boucher, if he had a season half as good as Kiprusoff last year, he would have gotten a raise as well on his $2mill deal, rather than being qualified for it.
Here's a link to all the goalie $$ in the league...
"Given the salary structure" is a flawed argument IMO, considering how the league salary structure is out of whack. If you keep giving players the salaries based on the current status, how do you get back to a more sane financial situation? My point is that 3mil for an essentially unproven starter is too much. 2 mil sounds more reasonable to me. I was saying that perhaps since Weekes has not been signed for awhile, maybe the goalie market is not so hot and Flames can use that to make their contribution to correcting the NHL salaries. Well, Weekes has signed now, but at the same time the Rangers now have a total goaltending glut and probably would not sign another goalie, so that's one deep pocketed team off the market.
And let's not compare Kipper to Boucher, that's mean But also, let's not compare him to Turco, Vokoun, Thibualt, Theodore, Gigeure or Nabokov. And let's not forget, he actually had 2 chances to be a starter, he lost to Toskala when Nabokov was out.
"Given the salary structure" is a flawed argument IMO, considering how the league salary structure is out of whack. If you keep giving players the salaries based on the current status, how do you get back to a more sane financial situation?
Do you not understand that arbitration awards on based are current salaries and the current salary structure? I'm sure the Flames would much rather have signed him for less, unfortunately he was eligible to go to arbitration. Pretty simple concept to grasp...
Do you not understand that arbitration awards on based are current salaries and the current salary structure? I'm sure the Flames would much rather have signed him for less, unfortunately he was eligible to go to arbitration. Pretty simple concept to grasp...
Simmer down. All I said that goalie market seems to give a bit of leverage to the Flames, so that they could sign Kipper for less despite the award. That's not a very complicated concept either, is it
Simmer down. All I said that goalie market seems to give a bit of leverage to the Flames, so that they could sign Kipper for less despite the award. That's not a very complicated concept either, is it
It's a lot more complicated than you make it out to be.
first of all, let's forget the argument on whether it was a fair award or not... you agreed it was saying that the league salary structure right now is out of whack, and we all know that the arbitration process is not about correcting the league structure and giving out brand new salary scales, but arbitration *has* to follow the current salary structure as it's set up by the league's teams and GMs.
so what Kipper got in arbitration is what he deserved based on the *current* salary structure in the NHL... whether it's out of whack or not is irrelevant - arbitration has no say in that, only GMs do in the contracts they negotiate and accept.
so now the argument is that given the league's current goalie market - which I totally agree with you is weak right now, with few teams needing a starter - the Flames would be better off walking away from Kipper's award and negotiating with him as a UFA.
is this what you're trying to suggest?
if so, I think you're totally underestimating Kipper's value on the market, even though it's a weak market.
We're not talking Cloutier here... a starting goalie who's got lots to prove in the playoffs... we're talking about a goalie that just broke out and stole games in the regular season and playoffs... a guy who last season, 39 games or not, was still a Vezina candidate as one of the league's top 3 goalies.... yes there are examples of the Jim Carey's in the past, and even Turek, that contended for the Vezina one year and regressed (in some cases a lot) after... but for every Carey and Turek you find there are dozen more examples of guys that contended for the Vezina and remained a top 10 goalie in the NHL after for a long time.... so it's a risk I would definitely take.
There are probably at least a half dozen teams that would jump on the chance at acquiring Kipper.
some examples:
The Canucks! They signed Clouts to a 1-yr deal... their backup right now is Auld, who can go to the farm without clearing waivers... if Kipper is available they would be interested, and goaltending has been such a weak link on our team for the last 10 years, that I don't think they'll walk away from Kipper at that kind of salary.
The Kings... just acquired Garon, but were unhappy with Cechmanek last year... they could be interested... Garon is a big risk - much bigger than Kipper - to be a starter next season.
The Coyotes... they have spent a fair sum of money already in the UFA market, and are trying to get into the playoffs next year... they have Boucher and Johnson under contract, and both are unproven and have had their problems in the past... if a guy who just came off the best half-season in NHL history, while taking a team that hadn't made the playoffs for 6 yrs to the finals, is now available, I'm sure they'll be interested.
Carolina... they let Weekes go... they have Gerber and Ward (likely) as their goalies, but Kipper is more of a sure bet right now than Weekes (who comes with his share of character issues), and Ward doesn't have to clear waivers to play in the minors.
Edmonton... they have Conklin and Markannen in their nets, after letting Salo go... they had cleared his salary also off the books... getting a $3mill starter, while hurting their biggest division rival at the same time, would be too good an opportunity to pass up.
Colorado... Aesbisher is good, still young and improving... they acquired Salo down the stretch last year as insurance... again a division rival, who get better while hurting a team that is in their division - for $3mill, it's an easy call for the Avs IMO.
St. Louis... Osgood a UFA... Lalime in town, making less than $2mill I believe... adding a young Kipper to that team, another team that has struggled to find consistent goaltending, could be a good move.
again, this is just off the top of my head.... I think a handful of teams would be ready to sign Kipper to a $3mill/yr contract... some may even give him more security with a longer deal...
and all this doesn't even factor in that Kipper may want to go to another team if the Flames don't pick up that award - thinking the team that he backstopped to the finals isn't interested in paying him less than the average starter in the league.
in the end, yes all that above is speculation, and maybe none of those teams are interested in Kipper...
do you take that chance if you're the Flames to save a $1mill at most?? best case you sign him for $2mill on a one year deal, then play the negotiation game again next season... worst case is that you lose Kipper, have Turek as your starter and go back to where the team was 2 years ago... as a fan of a division rival team, I definitely hope the Flames walk away... there are 3 teams IMO in the same division that would love to hurt the Flames and help themselves, and at $3mill/yr that's not that bad a number to do it.
but the Flames would be just plain STUPID to walk away.
But also, let's not compare him to Turco, Vokoun, Thibualt, Theodore, Gigeure or Nabokov. And let's not forget, he actually had 2 chances to be a starter, he lost to Toskala when Nabokov was out.
