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Deadline Grades (Pass or Fail?)

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Old
03-05-2009, 08:54 AM
  #76
TOG26
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
Last year and this year were two different times. One year the worlds economy was blossoming, and everyone thought the cap would go up and up and up and were willing to spend money to compensate for lack of draft picks. This year people realize that long term contracts are going to handcuff alot of teams in the near future, therefore they know they need more player on entry level contracts to make up the difference. Burke was right on the money when he talked about this yesterday. Look at how many teams are up over $50 million a year in salary this year. The one team that is competing with a total salary less then $50 mill is Nashville and they are just hanging on to a tight western conference race.

You also forgot to mention that even though cliff brought in those picks, he also shipped them out as quickly as he could and got rid of even more in the process. Throwing in a pick to get rid of McCabe was ridiculous, and we paid his bonus. We then gave up on 2 young players for a player arguably no better then either of them (we will see what he can do now that he will be leaned on more). Cliff had players with NTC's and he couldn't get them to do anything but sit on them no matter how much he publicly threatened them. Burke only had 2, but got a list of teams from one of them, and arguably the other is playing the best hockey of his career now, and increasing his value. But again Burke was right on the ball that if we tried to replace him, we would end up spending more on him in the offseason. And not to mention he can still be traded in the offseason, or next year.

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Old
03-05-2009, 09:11 AM
  #77
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Lets compare what I can sell my investments for now rather than a year ago. Should be about equal if I have a good broker right?

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03-05-2009, 09:11 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
Completely different markets Mess, both GM's did the best they could. The economy is really restraining things, the drop in the cap the year after next has curtailed the river-boat gambling of the past. I really do not think anyone should compare what was done on draft deadline last year with this year for any team.

It is becoming blatantly obvious to me that the unlimited financial resources of the Leafs will come in very handy this summer. The re-build may come a lot quicker than some think.

Who would have thought that the likes Jay-Bo or Pronger or even Chris Neil would be pulled from the market because the perceived value was not there this year!!!!


Last edited by Northern Dancer: 03-05-2009 at 09:16 AM.
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Old
03-05-2009, 09:14 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
Completely different markets Mess, both GM's did the best they could. The economy is really restraining things, the drop in the cap the year after next has curtailed the river-boat gambling of the past. I really do not think anyone should compare what was done on draft deadline last year with this year for any team.

It is becoming blatantly obvious to me the that unlimited financial resources of the Leafs will come in very handy this summer. The re-build may come a lot quicker than some think.
Nonis made mention of this in one of his interviews when talking about trying to sign some of those kids out of college. He was hoping to sway them to the Leafs by offering large signing bonuses.

It appears to be a potential competitive advantage the Leafs have. If so, it should be used at every opportunity.

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Old
03-05-2009, 09:53 AM
  #80
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As for us being in a great position for drafting, nope sorry folks, we are just back to square one.

We are where we started, all we have done is replace the 2 2nds we had traded away, sadly they will not be as low as the ones we traded out.

We did not add any first round picks or blue chip prospects to get this rebuild moving forward.

We are going to be drafting just like any other normal team this year and it's sad to say but some of these other rebuilding teams will have more prime picks then us.

All this chatter i hear from BB about the product we put on the ice and what they owe to the tickets holders and corporate sponsors scares the crap out of me.

It sounds very much like corporate BOG btch talk.

Seeing the epic inability to move forward with a draft/youth movement from last TD to now tells me one thing.

The BOG is going to be looking at a 5th straight non playoff year next year and that will be totally unacceptable to them.

Management will not be able to point at ANYTHING exceptional that points us to wards a youth filled rebuild, unlike any other standard team does with there standard allotment of picks every year. 2 TDs and one draft in since Fletch took over, and all we have done is nothing unlike any other normal standard drafting team.

Seeing the premium on draft picks now across the WHOLE of the NHL, would you still consider Filitov plus our 2nd/3rd for Luke S? Would you trade a 3rd for Mayers?

The BOG is going to put the thumbs on on BB this year to make it a PO team for 2009/10, book it. We are going to over pay for free agents and become the NYRs.

It's painfully obvious now tank nation, the rebuild alla LA,CHI,STL,PIT,WASH is not going to happen. We have spent 3 major occasions to get all those extra 1rst round picks and blue chip prospect with nothing to show for it, and if you think the GMs are going to change there stances to wards there draft picks and entry lvl contract blue chippers at the next draft, well your just dreaming. It's time to wake up, as the dire cap prediction for 2010/11 hits us square in the collective faces and the absolute truth of this depression is realized, GMs are going to be scrambling to ice the cheapest youngest teams they can get away with.
I think one of the (if not the) most important things Burke can do is not let this happen. That might be worth half his paycheck right there. The BOG has got to know that sticking to the plan is what they should do. Don't they?

I was disappointed with Burke's lack of action at first. But now I'll be happy if their core keeps getting younger and better every year.

I'm also wondering if it might be better to get a Tavares near the end of a rebuild. Having a franchise player when they're young and cheap allows you more money for the rest of your team.

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Old
03-05-2009, 09:54 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
I'm sure you haven't heard of the economic crisis.

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Old
03-05-2009, 10:14 AM
  #82
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Burke did what he could given the circumstances. I have faith in the guy.

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Old
03-05-2009, 10:15 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Northern Dancer View Post
It is becoming blatantly obvious to me that the unlimited financial resources of the Leafs will come in very handy this summer. The re-build may come a lot quicker than some think.
That's what the Wings thought when they signed six college free agents in one off season back in the 80's. Of those six only one turned out decently. It still took them a long time to build a winner and even with the free agents (Both veteran and college) they still focused on the draft. Jimmy D says that a proper rebuild takes about four seasons and it's a rare team that can shortcut their way to the end point.

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03-05-2009, 10:17 AM
  #84
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It's too bad. It now seems clear that those who are anti-Burke will be anti-Burke no matter what he does - and visa versa.

It would be better if we could look at move by move with the undertanding that a)every GM in the history of the league has both good and bad moves, and b)not everything done can be a home run - the little moves are also necessary and add up.

So far - I like what Burke has done. Do I wish we hit a grand slam? Of course - but judging by what transpired yesterday - it looks like there wasn't a grand slam to be had by anyone. I like the creative deal to pick up an extra 4th, I'm happy for the two 2nd's, and I'm thrilled that he showed we will FINALLY stop overpaying 3rd line players. It looks like he learned a lesson in Anaheim and is terrified of getting us into the same cap situation.

I also like what Fletcher did - not every move, and some of the moves it's still too early to tell... but all in all I like the 'table setting' he did.

People seem to look at deals as though they're all black and white. All other factors - salary cap, economy, supply & demand, the intangibles a guy brings, etc are all factors that seem ignored. It's like - lets put on our 20/20 hindsight caps and judge every move... ...

Oh well... that's my 2 cents...

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Old
03-05-2009, 10:59 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
You've re-set the bar.


IMO, I give Burke an 'A'....he made the most of what he had and didn't do anything stupid.

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Old
03-05-2009, 11:01 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
why don't you do a comparison of overall trades from last year to this year. oh yeah, I know why, that would show the true and go against your agenda. come on mess, your smarter than that if you think people are going to be fooled by this post.

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Old
03-05-2009, 11:24 AM
  #87
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It seems to me a lot of the people giving Burke a failing grade are mistaking their own expectations for the real value of assets in the trade market.

"We didn't get any firsts!" EPIC FAIL!

Uh, almost no one got a First Round pick.

We didn't get rid of Kaberle or Kubina! EPIC FAILZZZ!!!

No big name top-4 defensemen were moved, unless you consider Morris one.

We didn't trade Mayers! DAMN YOU BURKE!@!!

Very few character/plumber/energy players were moved to bolster depth on contenders. You can't blame the seller for not selling if no one brings their wallet.

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Old
03-05-2009, 11:53 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
That's what the Wings thought when they signed six college free agents in one off season back in the 80's. Of those six only one turned out decently. It still took them a long time to build a winner and even with the free agents (Both veteran and college) they still focused on the draft. Jimmy D says that a proper rebuild takes about four seasons and it's a rare team that can shortcut their way to the end point.
Where I say we are not going to focus on the draft?

ps. are you refering to Adam Oates? If so I would do that trade every year !!!


Last edited by Northern Dancer: 03-05-2009 at 12:13 PM.
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Old
03-05-2009, 12:05 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Well lets see in comparison to Fletcher last year ..

Cliff got a 2nd + 5th for Hal Gill, & 3rd for (retired) Chad Kilger & 5th for Wade Belak (since waived by Florida and claimed by Nashville).

So a 2nd, 3rd & 2 X 5ths for 3 players that are barely hockey player beyond depth bottom pairing and 3/4th liners.

While Burke traded our only Top 6 forward in Antropov and another top 4 scoring forward in Moore for a pair of 2nds and a condition pick that needs NYR to win at least two rounds..

Cliff also had Jeff Carter & 1st for Kabs, Chris Higgins, Grabovski & 1st for Sundin, and 2nd and McLaren for Kubina.

Interim GM Fletcher's trade deadline would have given the Leafs 3 X 1st with our own pick + added 2 X 2nds, 3rd, 2 X 5ths.

Burke couldn't even get an offer for Kaberle and held on to all our depth vet players like May and Mayers despite interest.

I guess when you had a HOF GM like Cliff in control and then have to watch a GM like Burke bumble his way along you get a little spoiled.

Brian Burke's rebuild status to date = + May + Gerber + Reitz - Antropov - Moore ..
I guess that's all fine and dandy, when you ignore that Fletch gave up a 3rd rounder for Mayers, and a 5th for Hollwegg. I'd bet Burke would be hard pressed to get anyone to even consider taking either player for free now, let alone re acquire the picks lost in those deals.

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Old
03-05-2009, 12:18 PM
  #90
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My post from a month ago.


Quote:
There is a term for this phenomenon you are describing and it is cap-maggeddon. It has been coined by me, and to date, used by only me (I'm seeing a few others use it now) but you are all welcome to use it. It is the time when the supply of talent will be greater than the demand. Where you are wrong is in the timing, as it will become evident around the draft, although we will see some minor signs of it at the deadline.

Once the salary cap for next year is announced, teams will be desperate to shed themselves of salary, as teams will be dangerously close to the upper limit. Teams like the Flyers, Rangers, Tampa and Senators will have so much money tied up, they won't have room to manoevre and get better. You will see good players on waivers only because of their salary. The top end guys will still get the best deals, but the mid-range guys will be sitting around waiting for an offer, that never comes. They will have to take 1 year deals and much lower slaries. We already see that somewhat for mid-range guys.

Teams with cap room can get lots of talent, as there will be so few teams looking to free agency to fill holes, and they can get higher priced, mid-high range talent for cheap (asset wise, not salary wise.) by way of trade. Teams like Montreal, Anaheim and Vancouver will be in a really good place as they have such little money accounted for next year. Toronto might actually be in a good place as they have so few UFA's and are well under the cap in terms of commitment for next year. They could add 2-3 guys at reduced deals due to demand.

The trade deadline next year will be quiet, as so many teams will be so tight to the cap, they won't be able to make any moves. You will probably also see lots of guys playing in the minors at relatively high contracts.

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03-05-2009, 12:41 PM
  #91
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C+

I was expecting Ponikarovsky and maybe Mayers dealt too. He did an alright job anyways.

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