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The Legacy of Ken Holland

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Old
03-05-2009, 11:14 PM
  #76
Zetsyuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Why? Let's talk brass tax. Would Quincey be playing over Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson or Lilja?

Nope.
Those six names are exactly why I'm not fretting too much about the Quincey situation. We have a solid lineup, especially for next year. Sure Quincey could have been better than Meech (minus the whole dual-position Meech has going for him) or Cheli (obviously...), but we're good enough where even if Lebda or Meech go in, they won't hamper the back end. Despite what most think, our extras do have upsides. Meech is adaptable for wherever we need him. Lebda has amazing speed. Chelios... is retiring soon. Ericsson, going on what he's shown in two games, should be one of our top 2 in the future.


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Old
03-05-2009, 11:16 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
What's happened to change anything? Quincey hasn't had an even strength point in 13 games, his IT has dropped now that the rest of the Kings dmen are healthy (he's only led Kings dmen in IT once in the past dozen or so games IIRC, and he's been #3 or 4 quite often, too), and the Kings are going to miss the playoffs. Again.

Look, next year the Wings are going to go through this same situation with either Lebda or Meech, and I don't doubt that if either of them goes to a team that has to play them a bunch on the PP they'll put up similar numbers.

Again, it's not like Quincey would ever be playing ahead of Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall or Stuart... and he'd certainly never be on the Wings PP barring injuries.
I'm sorry but that's rubbish.

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03-05-2009, 11:18 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Why? Let's talk brass tax. Would Quincey be playing over Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson or Lilja?

Nope.
yes. if Lebda, Meech, and Chelios play over Ericsson, Quincey would.

as i've said before, and Zetsyuk just said, losing Q isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back. it's not even going to give the camel arthritis. we're set on the blue line for the near and distant future. in the mean time, we have to win in spite of Lebda, Meech, and Chelios getting playing time.

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03-05-2009, 11:22 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK View Post
yes. if Lebda, Meech, and Chelios play over Ericsson, Quincey would.

as i've said before, and Zetsyuk just said, losing Q isn't the straw that breaks the camel's back. it's not even going to give the camel arthritis. we're set on the blue line for the near and distant future. in the mean time, we have to win in spite of Lebda, Meech, and Chelios getting playing time.
I'm talking beyond this year. Quincey had zero future in Detroit.

Honestly, what type of impact do you think Quincey would've made with 10 minutes a night? Zero mistakes? Zero stupid penalties? He'd look just as 'bad' as the other #6 guys we have.

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03-05-2009, 11:30 PM
  #80
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I agree with this. Honestly, the Red Wings have a very difficult organization to flourish in as a young player. We had very capable, experienced, skilled defensemen. The time he was getting was not helping him. He got moved to a team where they were depleted on the back end, and he got his opportunity. He's the type of player where if you give him the opportunity, he'll perform. He got a ton of special teams time, and played with a very young team. He works well there.

Looking at how the Red Wings are built, with a good mix of future and present players, we rarely have young performers like that. There's just no room to have given Quincey that much ice time.

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03-05-2009, 11:39 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I'm talking beyond this year. Quincey had zero future in Detroit.
beyond this year, he'd make a good #7 til his contract is up after next year. he'd get 30-35 games like Meech is getting, and might have shown us a little of what he's shown LA.

Quote:
Honestly, what type of impact do you think Quincey would've made with 10 minutes a night? Zero mistakes? Zero stupid penalties? He'd look just as 'bad' as the other #6 guys we have.
this hyperbole is based on...?
i could just as easily say he'd make the 3rd pairing into game-changers that make zero mistakes and take zero stupid penalties and sound just as ridiculous.
some people around here say 'these are the facts' when they try to pass off their opinion as fact, might as well tack that on there.

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03-05-2009, 11:46 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK View Post
this hyperbole is based on...?
i could just as easily say he'd make the 3rd pairing into game-changers that make zero mistakes and take zero stupid penalties and sound just as ridiculous.
some people around here say 'these are the facts' when they try to pass off their opinion as fact, might as well tack that on there.
It's not a hyperbole. Lebda since his poor start has played fine and I bashed him mercilessly early on.

The point I was making is, Chelios and Meech haven't looked horrendous when filling in, they looked like players who don't get to play much and are rusty each time they fill in. [I believe] Quincey would do the same thing.

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Old
03-06-2009, 12:39 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
It's not a hyperbole. Lebda since his poor start has played fine and I bashed him mercilessly early on.

The point I was making is, Chelios and Meech haven't looked horrendous when filling in, they looked like players who don't get to play much and are rusty each time they fill in. [I believe] Quincey would do the same thing.
Lebs deserved it, he was playing like Meech is playing now. rusty is just sugarcoating things. on average, they haven't been horrendous. each has had horrendous nights, but adequate would be a generous description of their contributions.

until we find a way into the 5th dimension, there's no way to know how Q would've fared with our development strategy. what we do know is that he's fared better under somebody else's than Meech has under ours.

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03-06-2009, 09:21 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK View Post
Lebs deserved it, he was playing like Meech is playing now. rusty is just sugarcoating things. on average, they haven't been horrendous. each has had horrendous nights, but adequate would be a generous description of their contributions.

until we find a way into the 5th dimension, there's no way to know how Q would've fared with our development strategy. what we do know is that he's fared better under somebody else's than Meech has under ours.
What is the job of a #6 defensemen?

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03-06-2009, 10:24 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
What is the job of a #6 defensemen?
not sure where this is going, but it depends. some are PP specialists that don't see a lot of ES IT, some are ES specialists that don't see much PP IT, some are goons that are a waste of IT, some are PK specialists that should be keeping their PP/ES specialists off the ice while shorthanded...


edit: OT, but is there something wrong w/ the server/boards? my reply box is coming up blank when i hit 'quote' sometimes, and the first time i stopped by, it showed last night's replies from around 8:00 as the most recent; e.g. didn't even show the 4th page existed in this thread.

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03-06-2009, 10:42 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK View Post
edit: OT, but is there something wrong w/ the server/boards? my reply box is coming up blank when i hit 'quote' sometimes, and the first time i stopped by, it showed last night's replies from around 8:00 as the most recent; e.g. didn't even show the 4th page existed in this thread.
Poor server(s) and database(s) still feeling the effects of the deadline massacre.

It happens with all sites running vBull when they get hammered and overloaded.

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03-06-2009, 11:33 AM
  #87
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so right now Kyle Quincey is the biggest blackmark on Ken Holland's resume? The guy would have been a reserve defenceman here with a stacked lineup in front of him and better prospects coming up behind him. I wish the guy luck but his presence (or lack thereof) is not going to make or break this franchise in any way.

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Old
03-06-2009, 11:52 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by hdw View Post
Poor server(s) and database(s) still feeling the effects of the deadline massacre.

It happens with all sites running vBull when they get hammered and overloaded.
Yes, and we're still seeing ghost posts and PMs, not to mention some of the posting/editing stuff. I suppose they'll synch things up eventually.

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Old
03-06-2009, 12:17 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes, and we're still seeing ghost posts and PMs, not to mention some of the posting/editing stuff. I suppose they'll synch things up eventually.
maybe it's the curse of posters past. I swear I aw Lanny walking around, rattling some chains, and cursing someone out for saying Rico Fata was going to be a HoFer.

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03-06-2009, 12:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by jacK View Post
what happened? Quincey solidified himself as a #3-4 d-man that can fill in as a #1-2,
In LA. Do you think the difficulty in 'establishing' yourself in a role for a non-playoff team like LA is the same as it would be for a legitimate playoff club like Detroit?

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and Meech solidified himself as a turd sandwich that can fill in as a mediocre player. and Q was a big reason the Kings were even sniffing the playoffs up until about 2 weeks ago.
Now that's just silly.

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btw, is your measuring stick for him really 'did he lead them to the playoffs'? asking a lot isn't it?
It's my measuring stick for the team, sure. Jack, there are all kinds of players who have roles on non-playoff teams that they are nowhere near deserving of on playoff clubs. That's why, hello, they are non-playoff teams.

Michalek and Sauer are top 3 guys in Phoenix. Are they top 3 guys in Detroit?
Ian White plays over 22 minutes a night in Toronto. Would he be playing that much for the Wings?

Etc, etc, etc.

Just because a player has 'earned' a role for a moderately crappy team does not mean that's what the guy ought to be on a better club.

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i know Q wouldn't be ahead of any of our top 4, but our extras (Lebs, Meech, Cheli) are small, defensively suspect, and offensively pathetic.
And Quincey hasn't been offensively pathetic? The dude has 10 non power play points on the year. Lebda has 14 in fewer games and much less total IT and Meech has 5 in barely half the games and in wayyyyy less total IT.

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at worst, if Q's got nothing going for him defensively or offensively here, he's got size. i know we're mostly about skill here, but it seems Lebda & Meech were a bit overrated, and Q was a bit underrated.
There was a training camp. Quincey lost. End of story.

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and if Lebda and/or Meech are gone next year, i don't think there would be as big of a deal made. we've seen their best, and it would be out of character for them to bust out as offensive threats, even with massive PP time.
As opposed to Quincey, who did nothing offensively for his whole career until he got thrown on an NHL #1 PP unit for 3:29 a night?

Sorry Jack, if the Wings had kept Quincey he'd be in Meech's position, playing every 3rd game or so, never seeing the PP which has accounted for over 70% of his offensive production, and the same people whining about Quincey getting away for nothing would be similarly caterwalling about Meech racking up the same amount of empty points for a non-playoff team elsewhere.

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03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
so right now Kyle Quincey is the biggest blackmark on Ken Holland's resume? The guy would have been a reserve defenceman here with a stacked lineup in front of him and better prospects coming up behind him. I wish the guy luck but his presence (or lack thereof) is not going to make or break this franchise in any way.
Uwe Krupp and Derian Hatcher say hello

But post lockout Holland hasn't made hardly any errors. I wont even fault him for the Bertuzzi trade cause 90% of Wings fans loved it at the time.

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03-06-2009, 12:32 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
so right now Kyle Quincey is the biggest blackmark on Ken Holland's resume? The guy would have been a reserve defenceman here with a stacked lineup in front of him and better prospects coming up behind him. I wish the guy luck but his presence (or lack thereof) is not going to make or break this franchise in any way.
I know... it's sort of amusing, right?

Even if by some twist of fate Detroit kept Quincey this year, they'd more than likely have to waive him before next year, and even if they didn't waive him he'd still be the clear #7 guy with a significant gap between him and #6. Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Lilja and Ericsson are all pretty much mortal locks for the top 6 in 2009-10.

And, oh yeah, Lebda and Meech would be out there putting up 30+ point seasons while Detroit had Quincey languishing on their bench playing 40 games a year, scoring 5-10 points, and everyone around wondering 'why didn't we keep Meech and Lebda? Look at all that offense!'

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03-06-2009, 12:33 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Fire Millen View Post
Uwe Krupp and Derian Hatcher say hello

But post lockout Holland hasn't made hardly any errors. I wont even fault him for the Bertuzzi trade cause 90% of Wings fans loved it at the time.
I think they were focusing more on trades than on FA signings. If we are talking bad UFA deals, then in addition to those two you have Whitney and Robitaille.

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03-06-2009, 12:47 PM
  #94
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I think they were focusing more on trades than on FA signings. If we are talking bad UFA deals, then in addition to those two you have Whitney and Robitaille.
Looking back at the Whitney signing he looked like he would be a natural fit for the team. But damn did he hate contact and that was always my biggest problem. I understand some players dont play the body. But dont act like a coward and bail out to avoid a hit

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03-06-2009, 01:20 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Zetsyuk View Post
I just saw the Mike Green thing...

WHAT
The Caps picked Green with the 1st they got in the Lang deal.

Fleischmann looks pretty good too. Probably not a superstar, but he has definite top 6 potential.


Last edited by sarcastro: 03-06-2009 at 03:59 PM.
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Old
03-06-2009, 01:47 PM
  #96
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Looking back at the Whitney signing he looked like he would be a natural fit for the team. But damn did he hate contact and that was always my biggest problem. I understand some players dont play the body. But dont act like a coward and bail out to avoid a hit
Whitney is a perfect guy for Eastern Conference hockey. Especially currently.

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Old
03-06-2009, 01:55 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Millen View Post
Uwe Krupp and Derian Hatcher say hello

But post lockout Holland hasn't made hardly any errors. I wont even fault him for the Bertuzzi trade cause 90% of Wings fans loved it at the time.
What HD said and even the Hatcher signing I give an asterisk because of Derian blowing out his knee. It turned out to be something that just didn't work out but I'd be interested in seeing what would have happened without the injury. Krupp was bad, Whitney was frustrating (as you say, he should have put up points here but was just pillow soft), Robitaille, well, at least we got him a cup. Hard to judge pre-cap since Holland seemed to just go after whoever was supposed to be the top catch on the market every summer.

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03-06-2009, 05:19 PM
  #98
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Holland has been great. 4 Stanley Cups. Sure he's made mistakes (Krupp, Whitney etc) but the results speak for themselves.

One thing though I would critique is that he sometimes holds onto older players for too long. eg. Trading a 3rd round pick to get Doug Brown back after losing him on waivers. Chelios and Maltby back for 1 year too long IMO.

But I guess that kind of loyalty to players is one reason that players like to come to Detroit.

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Old
03-06-2009, 06:31 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Millen View Post
Uwe Krupp and Derian Hatcher say hello

But post lockout Holland hasn't made hardly any errors. I wont even fault him for the Bertuzzi trade cause 90% of Wings fans loved it at the time.
Hatcher wasn't THAT bad. Krupp, yes.

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03-06-2009, 09:08 PM
  #100
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Hatcher wasn't THAT bad. Krupp, yes.
Hatcher wasn't that bad because the Wings could buy him out without taking a cap hit and they had plenty of cash. If they had gotten stuck with that deal, it would have been a nightmare.

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