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Jack Johnson for Jordan Staal in the offseason

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Old
03-07-2009, 11:37 AM
  #26
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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The Pens didn't want this deal when neither had proven anything, so I'm sure they wouldn't want to do it now after Staal's played a huge defensive role on a Finals team and is on his way to a 2nd 20+ goal season in 3 years, while JJ's had offensive struggles and a long-term injury.

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Old
03-07-2009, 11:38 AM
  #27
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Sorry for the annoying hum.

pretty darn cool video

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03-07-2009, 11:41 AM
  #28
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Still, imo that is not quality NOW. As 1 poster above said all those prospects are at least 1 year away.. give up Johnson and you will have troubles next year. But sure, in few years the Kings will be stacked with defenseman and good ones too.
I can go along with that...no guarantees that all are going to pan out and if we did subtract JJ it leaves a big hole as no other prospect is ready to jump in. Looking forward to seeing Hickey join the Kings, he may need a year in the AHL, but hopefully he shows enough in training camp to make it and stick.

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03-07-2009, 11:42 AM
  #29
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What's with the impatience? Johnson is 22 and in only his third year. What ever happened to the theory that it takes at least five years to create a really good defenseman?. Even if one doesn't subscribe to the theory, give the kid a little more time anyway.

Staal seems to bounce from expendable to absolutely terrific and back again. But he's still only 20, too. And, seemingly, since the coaching change, he is playing well again. So too soon to tell for both of them. LA and the Pens should just sit tight for awhile.

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Old
03-07-2009, 11:45 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kihei View Post
What's with the impatience? Johnson is 22 and in only his third year. What ever happened to the theory that it takes at least five years to create a really good defenseman?. Even if one doesn't subscribe to the theory, give the kid a little more time anyway.

Staal seems to bounce from expendable to absolutely terrific and back again. But he's still only 20, too. And, seemingly, since the coaching change, he is playing well again. So too soon to tell for both of them. LA and the Pens should just sit tight for awhile.
I agree, just putting feelers out there and I'm bored at work.

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03-07-2009, 11:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TearsOFaClown View Post
Teddy Purcell?
Haha, no.

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Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
Long-winded rant
Sounds to me that you dislike Staal's style so much that you're completely blinded to his actual effectiveness and productivity.

The fact that you're all over Okposo, Mueller, and Johnson yet trying to downplay everything Staal's accomplished is testimony to your willful ignorance.

Your posts look silly now for disregarding what's plainly visible, and they're going to look absolutely absurd later. I hope you stick around to see it through.

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03-07-2009, 12:08 PM
  #32
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I do not think this deal gets done if it is for Johnson straight up.

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03-07-2009, 12:10 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Haha, no.



Sounds to me that you dislike Staal's style so much that you're completely blinded to his actual effectiveness and productivity.

The fact that you're all over Okposo, Mueller, and Johnson yet trying to downplay everything Staal's accomplished is testimony to your willful ignorance.

Your posts look silly now for disregarding what's plainly visible, and they're going to look absolutely absurd later. I hope you stick around to see it through.
again I WATCH him play... I'm not robotic pittburgh fan who'd accept jack the ripper as my no 1 centre purely because he belonged to "my team". I've heard that same "defensive" crap for years now. Again,.. dominic moore was a far superior defensive player to staal.. if that's what was holding the pens back then they should've kept moore and traded staal for a more offensive player.

Nick Foligno (OTT) is a superior skater and hustles his ASS off! If you where looking for a defensive guy who'd hustle his behind off for you, kill penalties, block shots and generally give his heart for the team then THAT's the model for you. Plus line him up with crosby/malkin et al and I gurantee he'd get 20 goals a year too.

You DON'T draft a defensive forward that high... never been done as far as I remember. The players might end up that way (bobby carpenter) due to injuries or lack of production.. but I HIGHLY doubt that in a draft that featured KESSEL OKPOSO, TOEWS BRASSARD MUELLER BACKSTROM et al.. , the pens took one look at the roster and said.. "ooh look! there's that big bird lookin' defensive kid... I like him!"

Nonesense! You haven't countered ANY of my points. Instead you've whinned and cried about how mean my post was to a player on "your team" THAT'S how you prove I'm wrong? Then remind me never to get into an argument about global warming with you

I can't be BLIND to a player i've watched more consistently that ANYONE else from the 06 draft. Again, I challenge you to state ONE single incident involving jordan staal showing that same "swag" that guys like okposo, toews and johnson do. That's the kind of swag that kept a guy like marting st louis in the hunt for success,.. made mark savard refuse to give up till he BECAME a number one centre...

Just by watching any of the above players you'll see them giving blood sweat and tears to succeed. Staal? cruise control. last year when malkin ran out of gas in an inopportuned time, did STAAL step up? hell no... You do not draft a guy NUMBER TWO overall because he's a nice kid, or can kill penalties.. never ever EVER! That stupid argument should've been disproven by how ordinary his "defensive" play has been. Where is he in the scoring for short handed goals? When's the last time you heard him being even considered for the selke? or discussed by ANY single NHL player as a defensive threat?

go ahead.. I'll wait.

again.. nice kid.. wish him all the best, but someone let LA know I've got my bucket and squeegee ready for that Johnson trade

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03-07-2009, 12:15 PM
  #34
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You can write him off as a bust already, but the kid is only 20 years old.

TWENTY

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03-07-2009, 12:16 PM
  #35
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JJ isn't going anywhere

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03-07-2009, 12:18 PM
  #36
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Moore is a far superior defensive player? wow speedster, slow the **** down, you are going too fast and not seeing the right stuff.

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:19 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
You can write him off as a bust already, but the kid is only 20 years old.

TWENTY
BUST!!!!

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:23 PM
  #38
cassius
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
BUST!!!!
There is a 0% chance that Jordan Staal can improve any aspects of his game or fix any of his weaknesses.

I mean, he's 20 years old, thats practically the age where he should consider retirement. Any way you look at it, he is destined for failure.

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03-07-2009, 12:25 PM
  #39
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No they arent really.. I mean, they might have many D but their quality isnt that good.. Johnson is perhaps their best defenseman. Plus, Pens dont need Johnson.
Doughty, Hickey, Johnson, Quincey, Voynov, and Teubert.

Yes, I would say we need to stop going for quantity and add some quality.

As for the trade, I wouldn't want the Kings to do it. Johnson is 22 years old; still about 5 years from his prime as a defenseman. The Penguins and Kings both need scoring power at the wings so they are not good trading partners anyways.

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:33 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
There is a 0% chance that Jordan Staal can improve any aspects of his game or fix any of his weaknesses.

I mean, he's 20 years old, thats practically the age where he should consider retirement. Any way you look at it, he is destined for failure.
I agree, he's had a horrible career, he will be retiring after his contract. I retired before i was 20, but it was because i had major surgery, and i don't get the doctors they get, my knee was finished, just like Bure's knee.

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:36 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Moore is a far superior defensive player? wow speedster, slow the **** down, you are going too fast and not seeing the right stuff.
nope.. I've watched both. Moore was used as a third/fourth liner (with occasional appearances with crosby). Every time I saw him play I saw heart.. hustle and effort.. period. He's a guy who's transformed his effort into a mutli million dollar salary and a trade in exchange for a SECOND round draft pick, years after being cast as a fourth liner.

Again, If the pens desire was for a maximum effort giving defensive forward who could support the offense when needed then why not keep a cheaper (as of then) player who as of now is on pace to score as many points as staal?

I don't buy the time argument (mainly cause I haven't seen any change in his "mental" game) Not ONE time have I EVER seen jordan staal attempt to impose his body and will in a play. Instead their supposed great defensive stopper is bounced around by guys as small as eric perrin.

I have tried to buy the defense presence argument but its bull.... complete and utter ********, brought about because therrien fell inlove with his height and wingspan.. great and all but it doens't help when I see him repeatedly beat to, and out of the puck

takeaways? He's not even in the top 100! The aforementioned eric perrin had 34 to place 98th. "Incredible defensive players" like ryan malone, martin hanzal, tyler arnason and todd white are in the top 50.

Defensive anchor my ass

What is jordan staal bringing to the pens honestly? He's been healthy for the past 3yrs.. scored pretty well (even to his surprise) yet once the league took him seriously?..

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:39 PM
  #42
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So...you are too fast, and delusional. What's next on that list? Again i did not have to read it all, i want to checkmark 3 things!

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03-07-2009, 12:41 PM
  #43
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Speedster - your analysis is way less than objective.

You say Staal never uses the body - that's completely wrong. If you don't think he has above-average defensive presence, then you are mistaken.

I'm a Pens fan who supports the school of thought that Staal needs to be dealt for a winger, but I disagree with assessment big time. If you really think Domonic Moore or Fogliano is better than Staal, then you much be watching different games than me.

Man HFBoards posters must make terrible investors. If they're willing to write someone off already before their career has hardly begun, I can just imagine their approaches in security analysis. If a stock isn't performing well, SELL IT IMMEDIATELY WHO CARES ABOUT THE FUTURE

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03-07-2009, 12:43 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
The Pens didn't want this deal when neither had proven anything, so I'm sure they wouldn't want to do it now after Staal's played a huge defensive role on a Finals team and is on his way to a 2nd 20+ goal season in 3 years, while JJ's had offensive struggles and a long-term injury.
How come I frequently read this stuff ? Jack Johnson has played one full season and didn't put up 50 points as rookie and suddenly he has offensive struggles ? Do people even check the facts ?

He got injured at the beginning of this seaon and now he's back again. He's contributing nicely offensively so he's right on track. He's not a defensive liability like people were saying beforehand but definitely need to work on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei
What's with the impatience? Johnson is 22 and in only his third year. What ever happened to the theory that it takes at least five years to create a really good defenseman
Dont ask me.

This is his third year yes but if Johnson stays healthy this season then he has played 1,5 season total in the NHL. People need to realize that. The kid doesn't even had the chance to show himself.

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:43 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
So...you are too fast, and delusional. What's next on that list? Again i did not have to read it all, i want to checkmark 3 things!
let see.. "I don't agree with your points BEFORE I read them all."

"I'm convinced that I'm right and don't need to watch any games or talk to anyone with a different point."

'bout right?

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03-07-2009, 12:44 PM
  #46
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03-07-2009, 12:44 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
again I WATCH him play... I'm not robotic pittburgh fan who'd accept jack the ripper as my no 1 centre purely because he belonged to "my team". I've heard that same "defensive" crap for years now. Again,.. dominic moore was a far superior defensive player to staal.. if that's what was holding the pens back then they should've kept moore and traded staal for a more offensive player.
The same Dominic Moore that got outplayed by a rookie Max Talbot?

Quote:
Nick Foligno (OTT) is a superior skater and hustles his ASS off! If you where looking for a defensive guy who'd hustle his behind off for you, kill penalties, block shots and generally give his heart for the team then THAT's the model for you. Plus line him up with crosby/malkin et al and I gurantee he'd get 20 goals a year too.
People often said Mario Lemieux looked like he was a lazy skater, but the fact remains that his lazy strides saw him blowing past opposing players.

Now I'm not comparing Staal to Lemieux in the least, but I think Staal is moving a hell of a lot faster than it looks. Pens players have been stated as saying that Staal's strides are so long that it takes him two or 3 strides to other players 5 or 6, and that he is a very fast skater.

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You DON'T draft a defensive forward that high... never been done as far as I remember. The players might end up that way (bobby carpenter) due to injuries or lack of production.. but I HIGHLY doubt that in a draft that featured KESSEL OKPOSO, TOEWS BRASSARD MUELLER BACKSTROM et al.. , the pens took one look at the roster and said.. "ooh look! there's that big bird lookin' defensive kid... I like him!"
Staal is 20. Do you honestly believe that being about 5 years away from his prime that he will be in this defensive mold his entire career? You should be seeing this from the other perspective. Usually when an offensive player is drafted as high as Staal, his defensive game is usually what needs work. Staal is just backwards.

The fact still remains that though he hasn't lit the world on fire offensively, he is still a solid, albiet inconsistent, contributor to this team. At 20 years old the coaching staff has enough confidence in him to play in any position, along with giving him his own line.

When drafting Staal is was known that he was the biggest project and that he would take the most time to develop. Pens fans acknowledge and accept that fact. It's people like you who obviously missed this memo, who get in these heated arguments, stating your opinions as fact, pretending youre some amazing talent evaluator, but in reality youre a nobody who has stated he has only seen 50% of Staal's games played, yet wants to pass a judgement on a player you don't know much about at all, using hindsight as your only tool as evaluation.

Quote:
I can't be BLIND to a player i've watched more consistently that ANYONE else from the 06 draft. Again, I challenge you to state ONE single incident involving jordan staal showing that same "swag" that guys like okposo, toews and johnson do. That's the kind of swag that kept a guy like marting st louis in the hunt for success,.. made mark savard refuse to give up till he BECAME a number one centre...
Staal has missed 1 game so far through 3 seasons
Staal will most likely have two 20 goal seasons in 3 years
He is capable of playing center or wing
Can be counted on to play in all situations of a game
Can play a shut down role against to oppositions best players
Earned a spot as an 18 year old on an NHL squad.
Was arguably one of the teams best players in the short 06-07 playoffs
Played big minutes in a Stanley Cup Final run, holding a very important role on the team.

Basically, you have no perspective, intellect on the situation, or evaluation skill to say what Jordan Staal is or isn't, but you are just one of those posters that have made these boards in the last few months take a steep turn down hill.

You would rather come into a board all fired up, ******** on a player because, "I have seen 50% of his games, he's a bust, he will only be a defensive forward, should have picked Toews" rather than putting things in perspective, looking at the situation at hand, then taking time to evaluate. That would require a little work and intelligence though, and judging by your previous posts, that's not something you have an abundance of. Just another HF blow-hard. It's not about how much you write, but the quality of the words stated.

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03-07-2009, 12:46 PM
  #48
Snooki Stackhouse
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Originally Posted by cassius View Post
There is a 0% chance that Jordan Staal can improve any aspects of his game or fix any of his weaknesses.

I mean, he's 20 years old, thats practically the age where he should consider retirement. Any way you look at it, he is destined for failure.
He's had a good career, but it's time to put him out to stud. He just doesn't have "it" anymore.

May as well sell his seed for cash.

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03-07-2009, 12:46 PM
  #49
66-29-33
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Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
let see.. "I don't agree with your points BEFORE I read them all."

"I'm convinced that I'm right and don't need to watch any games or talk to anyone with a different point."

'bout right?
I read as much as i need to write someone off. Your posts are so terrible, that i don't even need to take them seriously in a discussion.

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Old
03-07-2009, 12:48 PM
  #50
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And for the record, Jack Johnson will be an extremely solid defenseman in this league for a long time. Will he be a 50-60 point defenseman? Who knows. But even if he isn't rest assured he will be a quality, shut down, work horse defenseman will bring enough determination and grit to a team that will instantly make them one of the toughest teams in the league to play against.

I love these people who think kids...not men...kids, should be hitting their full potential at 20, 21, 22 years of age. Sickening.

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