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Réjean Tremblay tells it like it is...

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Old
03-07-2009, 05:31 PM
  #51
JrHockeyFan
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Hmmmm. Carbo accomplished that first place finish last year? I don't believe even he thinks that. If he does that might explain a lot

If he did accomplish this task, why can't he again? The whole thing makes zero sense. If he did his job last year AND this year, why aren't the results the same?

This entire mess is not Carbo's fault. But he certainly has a hand in it. Something that goes this far south has to be his responsibility

PS: The comment about the number of coaches Koivu played for totally invalidates this man's entire perspective as far as I am concerned

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03-07-2009, 05:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
Hmmmm. Carbo accomplished that first place finish last year? I don't believe even he thinks that. If he does that might explain a lot

If he did accomplish this task, why can't he again? The whole thing makes zero sense. If he did his job last year AND this year, why aren't the results the same?

This entire mess is not Carbo's fault. But he certainly has a hand in it. Something that goes this far south has to be his responsibility

PS: The comment about the number of coaches Koivu played for totally invalidates this man's entire perspective as far as I am concerned
The CH last year : 1rst in PP, the year before : 1rst in PP, credits goes to Streit and Souray.
The CH 2 years ago, last year and this year: bad at 5 vs 5.

As for Koivu, we have to look at what he brings at 5 vs 5, in the PP, the way he bring his teamates to a higher level, etc. It's not easy to have the whole perpective on that and to have the true informations to make a good analyse. But if it's not next summer, Koivu will have to go some time, he's no longer young, his body has not a strong stamina (because of his cancer), he will retire in maybe 3 years. So surely time will make Koivu and the CH split apart, naturally, or Tremblay's article is a way of preparing habs fans to say good bye to Saku. But Saku will leave without winning any Stanley Cup (or getting close to it).

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03-07-2009, 05:53 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
But Sakic was a true leader.

Tremblay agrees that Carbo have some flaws, we all know that. This is the same team (and coach's system) that finished 1rst last year, without the PP, or without Streit of you prefer. Thanks Bob to bring Schneider to make the CH looks like 'CH with a Streit".

But a fact remains : the CH does not have a legit 1rst center, big enough, dominant like the Cup Contender Teams have. It's been a while the CH sucks at 5 vs 5. The head of the CH team did not hired a legit 1rst center, did not draft one (they missed their chance with Richards, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Zajak, etc), I mean the CH is far from being a Cup Contender with Koivu and Plekanec as 1rst and 2nd centers. This doesn't look serious, this is underestimating the importance of a true 1rst center.

But the topic is about room leadership of the players. Some parts of the season the players seems to buy Carbo's system (and the CH wins a good part of the games), they bring energy no matter what the lines are. I think it's very difficult for any coach of the CH to create lines that works, you (not you but generally) on that forum might think it's easy, think about the player's ego, their injuries, etc. You have to think about the chemistry of the players, their personal preference, the way they will play on the ice.

I'll tell you someting very simple : I like teams that are built around 2 good centers, I think it's more easy to built lines with strenght down the middle, like any sports, like any strategy game (chess for example, a good use of the queen). Continuing the persevere with weakness down the middle is a mistake, for me, my own opinion. So, in that perpective, please be tolerant with Carbo, he doesn't have an easy job.
great post !

welcome to the board

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Old
03-07-2009, 05:58 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
The CH last year : 1rst in PP, the year before : 1rst in PP, credits goes to Streit and Souray.
The CH 2 years ago, last year and this year: bad at 5 vs 5.

As for Koivu, we have to look at what he brings at 5 vs 5, in the PP, the way he bring his teamates to a higher level, etc. It's not easy to have the whole perpective on that and to have the true informations to make a good analyse. But if it's not next summer, Koivu will have to go some time, he's no longer young, his body has not a strong stamina (because of his cancer), he will retire in maybe 3 years. So surely time will make Koivu and the CH split apart, naturally, or Tremblay's article is a way of preparing habs fans to say good bye to Saku. But Saku will leave without winning any Stanley Cup (or getting close to it).
What you say might be true BUT what has that got to do with the comment that he played with 7 coaches? To me the article is taking a shot at Koivu failing his coaches and somehow costing them their jobs. That goes even before the cancer episode.

It was a cheap shot. I don't respect opinions from folks who do that kind of stuff

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03-07-2009, 06:08 PM
  #55
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Well, I personally do not agree with the tone of the article, but Tremblay does have a point.

Some members of the habs got the coaches heads too many times already.

And on Carbo moving players around. Some people say moving player around is the worst thing you can do, it breaks chemistry.

Go watch some games coached by Bowman and come again. He would break and change his lines midgame multiple times if stuff didn't go his way.

Can we lay the entire brunt of the current woes of the Habs on Carbo? He's not on the ice. Him, Muller and Jarvis can't go on the ice and kick ass anymore. You think the problem is due to the players not followng Carbo's system? Last year, the Habs were renowned for having an insane transition game, Lately, they can't make a pass out of the zone.

I'm not as willing to put the blame on Carbo for what transpired this season as others. I think many players have to look in the mirror and think for a while.

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03-07-2009, 06:34 PM
  #56
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"Carbonneau is doing a good job. He doesn't deserve any blame for this slide. There are no US forces in Baghdad. I am an insightful hockey mind with no political agenda."

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03-07-2009, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
What you say might be true BUT what has that got to do with the comment that he played with 7 coaches? To me the article is taking a shot at Koivu failing his coaches and somehow costing them their jobs. That goes even before the cancer episode.

It was a cheap shot. I don't respect opinions from folks who do that kind of stuff
Cheap shot, yes, maybe. You have a point. I did say first I don't like Tremblay's articles. I don't like his style, his arogance. But a fact remains : Koivu was there or was the captain when a lot of coachs were fired. We don't know if he was directly responsable for that or if he tried to save these coachs's job. No matter what we know, somehow Koivu must have been responsable for firing one, two or three coachs. Or he didn't avoid putchs, which shows lack of leadership.

Or should we ask the question differently : was Koivu a partner of these coachs, a true loyal soldier, a seller of their system? We don't know the answer but now the question is getting pertinent.
Another question : who should be the boss of the team? The coach or the captain? We might say it depends who is the captain and who is the coach. If the captain's name is Messier or if the coach's name is Bowman, it's different. Now the coach's name is Carbonneau and the captain's name is Koivu.

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03-07-2009, 07:54 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
re-read the article ; he talks also about Kovalev , Komisarek , Brisebois . Not only about Koivu .

Carbo has leaded his team to the first position in the east last season . He proved himself yet .
Carbo is "leading" this team out of playoffs this season...

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03-07-2009, 07:56 PM
  #59
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Carbo is "leading" this team out of playoffs this season...
And for the 2nd time of his short coaching career nonetheless.

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Old
03-07-2009, 08:05 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
But Sakic was a true leader.

Tremblay agrees that Carbo have some flaws, we all know that. This is the same team (and coach's system) that finished 1rst last year, without the PP, or without Streit of you prefer. Thanks Bob to bring Schneider to make the CH looks like 'CH with a Streit".

But a fact remains : the CH does not have a legit 1rst center, big enough, dominant like the Cup Contender Teams have. It's been a while the CH sucks at 5 vs 5. The head of the CH team did not hired a legit 1rst center, did not draft one (they missed their chance with Richards, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Zajak, etc), I mean the CH is far from being a Cup Contender with Koivu and Plekanec as 1rst and 2nd centers. This doesn't look serious, this is underestimating the importance of a true 1rst center.

But the topic is about room leadership of the players. Some parts of the season the players seems to buy Carbo's system (and the CH wins a good part of the games), they bring energy no matter what the lines are. I think it's very difficult for any coach of the CH to create lines that works, you (not you but generally) on that forum might think it's easy, think about the player's ego, their injuries, etc. You have to think about the chemistry of the players, their personal preference, the way they will play on the ice.

I'll tell you someting very simple : I like teams that are built around 2 good centers, I think it's more easy to built lines with strenght down the middle, like any sports, like any strategy game (chess for example, a good use of the queen). Continuing the persevere with weakness down the middle is a mistake, for me, my own opinion. So, in that perpective, please be tolerant with Carbo, he doesn't have an easy job.
Sakic only became a true leader when his team finally surrounds him with Drury, Blake, Bourque, Hejduk, Forsberg, Foote and Patrick Roy. Coincidence I don't think so. Winning Cups creates "great" leaders except winning Cups generally takes great teams. Same with Yzerman. His Captaincy questioned until finally got a dynasty type team and now is down as one of the greatest leaders of all time.

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03-07-2009, 08:12 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
re-read the article ; he talks also about Kovalev , Komisarek , Brisebois . Not only about Koivu .

Carbo has leaded his team to the first position in the east last season . He proved himself yet .
Tortorella won the cup, yet he got fired. Same with Laviolette and an endless list of coaches. It's not because you proved yourself one year that you're good every year. If players can have good and disappointing season, then I don't see why Coaches can't. So far, Carbo had a horrible season his first year. We can say he had a good one last season but this year is going down in the crapper unless there's a turnaround.

Last year, it was all about our PP/Goaltending. It's not because it worked one year, that it'll work every year. We also never had to face adversity last season. I don't think we lost back to back games once last season and we didn't suffer any injuries until late in the season before POs.

The year before and this year, it seems Carbo couldn't/can't find solutions to get us out of our never ending slumps. Maybe finally realizing the Plek trio from last year isn't working anymore will help, but it took him a really long time to notice it.

As for Breezer, Kovy, Komi, we have no idea who steps up in the room, who's vocal and who isn't. But the ''Koivu 7coaches'' is a direct blow to him, it's obvious and you know this.

Like I said, you're only as good as your last game. So it really doesn't matter if Carbo ''lead'' his team to #1 Seed last season. This year is what counts. Looking in the past is useless.


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Old
03-07-2009, 08:26 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
Cheap shot, yes, maybe. You have a point. I did say first I don't like Tremblay's articles. I don't like his style, his arogance. But a fact remains : Koivu was there or was the captain when a lot of coachs were fired. We don't know if he was directly responsable for that or if he tried to save these coachs's job. No matter what we know, somehow Koivu must have been responsable for firing one, two or three coachs. Or he didn't avoid putchs, which shows lack of leadership.

Or should we ask the question differently : was Koivu a partner of these coachs, a true loyal soldier, a seller of their system? We don't know the answer but now the question is getting pertinent.
Another question : who should be the boss of the team? The coach or the captain? We might say it depends who is the captain and who is the coach. If the captain's name is Messier or if the coach's name is Bowman, it's different. Now the coach's name is Carbonneau and the captain's name is Koivu.
Now that is a more interesting point I think. Some coaches rule with a stronger hand and some Captains have a lot of authority in their own right. But the two must compliment each other.

More times than not the coach is boss and that is it. Guys who defer control without maintaining it in some other fashion are going to lose their job without any doubt.

On the other hand I think you are forgetting that the Capt represents the players too.

I'm curious how Tremblay thinks Koivu is letting Carbo down. Koivu if anything is a character guy. He can't act solely in the interests of the coach.

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03-07-2009, 08:32 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
But Sakic was a true leader.

Tremblay agrees that Carbo have some flaws, we all know that. This is the same team (and coach's system) that finished 1rst last year, without the PP, or without Streit of you prefer. Thanks Bob to bring Schneider to make the CH looks like 'CH with a Streit".

But a fact remains : the CH does not have a legit 1rst center, big enough, dominant like the Cup Contender Teams have. It's been a while the CH sucks at 5 vs 5. The head of the CH team did not hired a legit 1rst center, did not draft one (they missed their chance with Richards, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Zajak, etc), I mean the CH is far from being a Cup Contender with Koivu and Plekanec as 1rst and 2nd centers. This doesn't look serious, this is underestimating the importance of a true 1rst center.

But the topic is about room leadership of the players. Some parts of the season the players seems to buy Carbo's system (and the CH wins a good part of the games), they bring energy no matter what the lines are. I think it's very difficult for any coach of the CH to create lines that works, you (not you but generally) on that forum might think it's easy, think about the player's ego, their injuries, etc. You have to think about the chemistry of the players, their personal preference, the way they will play on the ice.

I'll tell you someting very simple : I like teams that are built around 2 good centers, I think it's more easy to built lines with strenght down the middle, like any sports, like any strategy game (chess for example, a good use of the queen). Continuing the persevere with weakness down the middle is a mistake, for me, my own opinion. So, in that perpective, please be tolerant with Carbo, he doesn't have an easy job.
They finished 1st last season due to their PP, not Carbo's system. The 5on5 system Carbo has installed has never truly worked.

Wouldn't you agree that as a coach, one of your tasks is to get the best out of your players? Carbo has failed tremendously at doing so in 2 seasons (considering it continues as it has lately and we miss the POs).

Sure, having strong vocal leaders in a room can be helpful, but it isn't an excuse imo.
You said it yourself, Chemistry is important. That's also the coaches job to develop a good one among his players. You think changing lines as often as he does and putting Lappy/Kosto as much ice time is good for the team unity?..
Did you ever play competitive sports?..I played hockey until Juniors, and it never sat well when a coach would make certain players play instead of the main skilled ones. Do it a few shifts, do it for 1 period, but never as long as Carb's has done it.

It's unacceptable that he gave Lappy/Kosto 20+min of ice time in back to back games. Now, I'm not an NHL coach, but to me that's just ridiculous. We're on a discussion board, so I'm just giving out my 2cents, I'm not pretending to know better.

There's also a difference between being a cup contender, and playing as badly as we've been. There's a fine gap between both and I think we'll both agree that we're not nearly as bad as we've been playing. The way our Dmen struggle like they're Pee-Wee players has nothing to do with having a big top liner or lacking vocal leaders. It's just bad coaching, and if the players don't listen to the coach, then you have to ask yourself why.

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Old
03-07-2009, 10:19 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
Cheap shot, yes, maybe. You have a point. I did say first I don't like Tremblay's articles. I don't like his style, his arogance. But a fact remains : Koivu was there or was the captain when a lot of coachs were fired. We don't know if he was directly responsable for that or if he tried to save these coachs's job. No matter what we know, somehow Koivu must have been responsable for firing one, two or three coachs. Or he didn't avoid putchs, which shows lack of leadership.

Or should we ask the question differently : was Koivu a partner of these coachs, a true loyal soldier, a seller of their system? We don't know the answer but now the question is getting pertinent.
Another question : who should be the boss of the team? The coach or the captain? We might say it depends who is the captain and who is the coach. If the captain's name is Messier or if the coach's name is Bowman, it's different. Now the coach's name is Carbonneau and the captain's name is Koivu.
The question is getting pertinent for all the leaders of the Habs . Not only for Koivu .

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03-07-2009, 10:24 PM
  #65
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The question is getting pertinent for all the leaders of the Habs . Not only for Koivu .
it pertinent to EVERY single player on this roster. It doesn't matter if its a leader or the 7th defenseman, if guys aren't buying into what the coach is selling, its going to cause problems within a dressing room and affect play on the ice.

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03-07-2009, 10:46 PM
  #66
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Well, Tremblay passed over his hate for the habs coach to throw his hate on Koivu... nothing really changes here

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03-08-2009, 04:20 AM
  #67
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"Carbonneau is doing a good job. He doesn't deserve any blame for this slide. There are no US forces in Baghdad. I am an insightful hockey mind with no political agenda."
Funniest thing I've seen in a long time

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03-08-2009, 05:06 AM
  #68
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If Koivu really is responsible for the canning of multiple coaches, you'd think one of three GMs would've traded him, no? The same applies for any player for that matter.

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03-08-2009, 10:09 AM
  #69
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Hmmmm. Carbo accomplished that first place finish last year? I don't believe even he thinks that. If he does that might explain a lot

If he did accomplish this task, why can't he again? The whole thing makes zero sense. If he did his job last year AND this year, why aren't the results the same?

This entire mess is not Carbo's fault. But he certainly has a hand in it. Something that goes this far south has to be his responsibility

PS: The comment about the number of coaches Koivu played for totally invalidates this man's entire perspective as far as I am concerned
Thanks for making my day start with a big laugh!

So if the team win, it's because of the players; if it loses, it's because of the coach?

I know the posters on these boards aren't the brigthest, but we are reaching new levels nowadays. I guess it's time for me to move somewhere else and leave the kindergarden.

hfboards.com or canadadivided.com: same fight, same high level of intelligence.

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03-08-2009, 10:14 AM
  #70
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Thanks for making my day start with a big laugh!

So if the team win, it's because of the players; if it loses, it's because of the coach?

I know the posters on these boards aren't the brigthest, but we are reaching new levels nowadays. I guess it's time for me to move somewhere else and leave the kindergarden.

hfboards.com or canadadivided.com: same fight, same high level of intelligence.
you are usually quick to seize on a cause, why didn't you comment on the first post, are only certain insults of interest to you ?

by the way, it seemed to me that the post that you quoted claims that responsibility, good and bad is usually shared, then again, my reading skills have diminished.
I feel worse about those that are supposedly bright because of the way they choose their battles.

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03-08-2009, 10:16 AM
  #71
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What has been left out of this debate is what type of team Gainey has built here. Whether you likes their on ice play or not is irrelevant, when we had Koivu's "amigos" here we did not see the goalies being run and cheapshots going without response. Rivet and Souray played with more team heart then anybody except Koivu himself. Funny how these two were run out of town because they were part of a clique and now both wear letters including Rivet's C for their new clubs, I don't see how Kovalev as assistant has taken on a fraction of the leadership they provided. Instead of letting Koivu surround himself with guys who had his back, and allowed him to lead, instead we decided leaders were the guys who lead on the scoresheet and don't give a crap about the team or their teammates. Koivu's lack of leadership is a product of what the team has done and surrounded him with, not anything he can control.

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03-08-2009, 10:30 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by HABSwannawin View Post
But Sakic was a true leader.

Tremblay agrees that Carbo have some flaws, we all know that. This is the same team (and coach's system) that finished 1rst last year, without the PP, or without Streit of you prefer. Thanks Bob to bring Schneider to make the CH looks like 'CH with a Streit".

But a fact remains : the CH does not have a legit 1rst center, big enough, dominant like the Cup Contender Teams have. It's been a while the CH sucks at 5 vs 5. The head of the CH team did not hired a legit 1rst center, did not draft one (they missed their chance with Richards, Getzlaf, Kopitar, Zajak, etc), I mean the CH is far from being a Cup Contender with Koivu and Plekanec as 1rst and 2nd centers. This doesn't look serious, this is underestimating the importance of a true 1rst center.

But the topic is about room leadership of the players. Some parts of the season the players seems to buy Carbo's system (and the CH wins a good part of the games), they bring energy no matter what the lines are. I think it's very difficult for any coach of the CH to create lines that works, you (not you but generally) on that forum might think it's easy, think about the player's ego, their injuries, etc. You have to think about the chemistry of the players, their personal preference, the way they will play on the ice.

I'll tell you someting very simple : I like teams that are built around 2 good centers, I think it's more easy to built lines with strenght down the middle, like any sports, like any strategy game (chess for example, a good use of the queen). Continuing the persevere with weakness down the middle is a mistake, for me, my own opinion. So, in that perpective, please be tolerant with Carbo, he doesn't have an easy job.
If you look at the Pens this makes no sense. They have great centers and are doing badly. Therrien got fired because he couldn't get them going.

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03-08-2009, 10:35 AM
  #73
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Thanks for making my day start with a big laugh!

So if the team win, it's because of the players; if it loses, it's because of the coach?

I know the posters on these boards aren't the brigthest, but we are reaching new levels nowadays. I guess it's time for me to move somewhere else and leave the kindergarden.

hfboards.com or canadadivided.com: same fight, same high level of intelligence.
You are right. You should leave and never come back. I fully agree with you.

BTW you misspelled kindergarten...clearly a sign of inferior intellect.

Bye bye now!

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03-08-2009, 10:50 AM
  #74
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You are right. You should leave and never come back. I fully agree with you.

BTW you misspelled kindergarten...clearly a sign of inferior intellect.

Bye bye now!
How original is this message? Do you really think it was unexpected?

T'as raison, j'aurais dû parler de garderie. Y'a pas d'erreur dans cette phrase là.

Au passage, y'a une différence entre intelligence et connaissance.

La connaissance, c'est ce que l'on sait, l'intelligence, c'est la capacité à interpréter les choses par la raison. Et l'exemple cité ici démontrait tout sauf une utilisation éclairée et fiable d'une "raison". Comment argumenter avec des gens incapables d'un niveau basal comme ça?

Heureusement que votre seul pouvoir est de brailler sur des forums de discussion.

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03-08-2009, 10:54 AM
  #75
mcphee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafka View Post
How original is this message? Do you really think it was unexpected?

T'as raison, j'aurais dû parler de garderie. Y'a pas d'erreur dans cette phrase là.

Au passage, y'a une différence entre intelligence et connaissance.

La connaissance, c'est ce que l'on sait, l'intelligence, c'est la capacité à interpréter les choses par la raison. Et l'exemple cité ici démontrait tout sauf une utilisation éclairée et fiable d'une "raison". Comment argumenter avec des gens incapables d'un niveau basal comme ça?

Heureusement que votre seul pouvoir est de brailler sur des forums de discussion.
pas de response a mon commentaire ? t'es changer les mots de Jr.Hockey Fan, mais, oublie ca, c'est votre style.

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