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Bob Gainey: Or Why He's A Good GM

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Old
03-07-2009, 07:20 PM
  #51
MonacoBlue
 
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Sounds like the same excuse not to play anywhere in Canada, look at Hossa, he signed in a dump like detroit because he wants to play with a good team. The quality of the team is much more important than the city and media. The media is just an excuse for Gainey to continue being stubborn and ineffective.
Well, if you say that winning is what matters, then you can't have it both ways. In order to be able to attract UFAs to Montreal, you have to win. How can you do this without UFAs? Only through trades and the draft. So how long did it take Detroit to establish a winning reputation? Well, the Dead Wings era ended in 82 and it took them until 1997 to win a Cup. So it looks like Gainey has another ten years to establish a winning rep, if you judge how hard it is to establish such a rep based on a team that actually managed to acquire it.

Now, other teams like Nashville attract UFAs based on anonmity and lower taxes. Detroit, if they didn't win, would never attract a UFA. That's the situation Montreal is in.

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Old
03-07-2009, 08:27 PM
  #52
OneSharpMarble
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Originally Posted by MONACOBLUE View Post
Well, if you say that winning is what matters, then you can't have it both ways. In order to be able to attract UFAs to Montreal, you have to win. How can you do this without UFAs? Only through trades and the draft. So how long did it take Detroit to establish a winning reputation? Well, the Dead Wings era ended in 82 and it took them until 1997 to win a Cup. So it looks like Gainey has another ten years to establish a winning rep, if you judge how hard it is to establish such a rep based on a team that actually managed to acquire it.

Now, other teams like Nashville attract UFAs based on anonmity and lower taxes. Detroit, if they didn't win, would never attract a UFA. That's the situation Montreal is in.
This is pointless, you will have to accept the fact one day Gainey and his strategy has been a failure. Hell even Edmonton, that has it much worse than Montreal, gets free agent signings and is constantly in the race. The media is bad but everything isn't their fault all the time.

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Old
03-07-2009, 09:09 PM
  #53
Nashy
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I'm a Gainey supporter, but if they don't make the playoffs this year, that's an epic fail that should be laid at his feet.

This is the team he built with the coach he picked, no excuses.

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Old
03-07-2009, 09:48 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Nashy View Post
I'm a Gainey supporter, but if they don't make the playoffs this year, that's an epic fail that should be laid at his feet.

This is the team he built with the coach he picked, no excuses.
I am not a knee-jerk complainer, and I don't panic over a defeat here and there, nor even an occasional slump. However, I have been thinking for about three weeks about what I would say if I have Bob Gainey's ear.

I think it is more than fair to state that Gainey has brought the organization light-years forward compared to where it was in 2003 when he came in. There is talent all over the place, both in Montreal and Hamilton, and even in the Junior ranks.

I like the fact that at the end of last year, despite the club finishing first overall in the East, Bob did not stand pat. He addressed what he saw as two needs, bringing in a big body centreman with some offensive potential, Robert Lang when Mats Sundin didn't happen, and some additional toughness in Georges Laraque. When the Laraque signing looked like it wasn't working out, he brought up Gregory Stewart, and even before that, he promoted Max Pacioretty, who is clearly not afraid to bump and get his nose dirty.

On the attack, he hedged against a possible decrease in production from Alex Kovalev by bringing in Alex Tanguay. And if letting Mark Streit go was an error, I think he mostly repaired it by fetching Mathieu Schneider.

All in all, on the player personnel front, I think Bob did his job.

Now, it is the coach's job to take what the GM gives him and get the best out of the group. Here is where Bob now has a tough decision. How to evaluate the coaching staff? Is the coach's system faulty? Well, despite what many here keep saying, I don't think it is. The same system worked much better last year, and in fact the same system is used by most NHL teams. It can't be all bad.

Is the team's troubles a fault of execution? To a large degree, yes. The players are not executing the system well enough, often enough. Whose job is it to get the best of the players again? The coaching staff.

Is the team right now capable of being a playoff team? Yes, the capability is there. Is it virtually certain that the coaches and players will achieve this goal? FAR from certain. Well, this is simply not acceptable.

I think Bob has no choice but to make a major decision on the coaching issue. Either he works with Guy every day to make him a better coach while leaving him in charge, or he brings someone else in, late in the season, or he takes on the head coach job himself. Incidentally, whatever he does, I think he needs to hire a DEFENCEMAN coach, like many teams have and the Habs themselves USED to have.

Personally, I think the idea of working through Guy is very risky; there is still the problem that communication and teambuilding is the weakness, not the system itself. Bringing someone in at this time, whether Bob Hartley or Pat Quinn or another veteran currently on the shelf, could be hard to get done. IMO, the best chance the club has to start winning again is under Head Coach Bob Gainey.

Next year, Bob can have someone new start in.

Like I said, this is not a knee-jerk reaction to one game or one week. I've been giving it a lot of thought.

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03-07-2009, 09:52 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
It seems the new whipping boy on HF has become Bob Gainey, the GM. I read all sorts of things, including one hilarious thread that suggests Roy is somehow more qualified.

Well, here is why, to me, Bob Gainey is a very good GM. Let me take you backwards to the 2002-03 season. Montreal finished 30-35-8, missing the playoffs by 6 points. In May, we hired a new GM. Bob Gainey.

Let me run you down the roster when he took over. This is organized by points scored in 2002-03, the last season before Gainey took over.

CENTER:
-Koivu
-Perreault
-Bulis
-Juneau
-Ribeiro
-Kilger

LEFT WING:
-Zednik
-Marcel Hossa
-Gordie Dwyer
-Sylvain Blouin

RIGHT WING:
-Dackell
-Audette
-McKay
-Sundstrom
-Czerkawski
-Jason Ward
-Bill Lindsay

DEFENSE:
-Markov
-Brisebois
-Rivet
-Traverse
-Quintal
-Dykhuis
-Bouillon
-Komisarek
-Beauchemin
-Hainsey

GOALIE:
-Theodore
-Garon

Now, let me run down our top prospects according to HF at the time:

-Garon (FYI, he cleared waivers in Nov 2002)
-Eric Choinard
-Jason Ward
-Komisarek
-Plekanec
-Balej
-Marcel Hossa
-Beauchemin
-Thinel
-Ryder
-Jarome Marois
-Christian Larrivee
-Milroy
-Olivier Michaud
-Michael Lambert
-Ferland
-Andre Deveaux
-Archer
-Eric Himelfarb
-Tomas Linhart
-Chris Higgins
-Matt Shasby
-Scott Selig
-Ryan Glenn
-Alexander Buturlin
-Perezhogin
-Korneev
-Joni Puurula
-Johan Eneqvist
-Victor Ujcik
-Vadim Tarasov
-Timo Vertala
-Martti Jarventie
-Niklas Anger
-Ilkka Mikkola

Now... fast forward to 2009.

Anyone who can look at the above and conclude that clearly Bob Gainey is a man without a plan or who hasn't improved this team...

You're both reactionary and delusional.

Teams need stability from management and too many blow everything up, fire everyone and change direction after every slump. Gainey is not perfect, but the lists above show that he's definitely not an idiot.

Under his watch, we've developed a few really good players and gone from a team with a pretty bare cupboard and a glorified AHL team on the ice to a pretty decent team, this slump not withstanding, who has one of the best collections of prospects and young NHLers in the league.
In Bob We Trust.

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Old
03-07-2009, 10:14 PM
  #56
Kirk Muller
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
I am not a knee-jerk complainer, and I don't panic over a defeat here and there, nor even an occasional slump. However, I have been thinking for about three weeks about what I would say if I have Bob Gainey's ear.

I think it is more than fair to state that Gainey has brought the organization light-years forward compared to where it was in 2003 when he came in. There is talent all over the place, both in Montreal and Hamilton, and even in the Junior ranks.

I like the fact that at the end of last year, despite the club finishing first overall in the East, Bob did not stand pat. He addressed what he saw as two needs, bringing in a big body centreman with some offensive potential, Robert Lang when Mats Sundin didn't happen, and some additional toughness in Georges Laraque. When the Laraque signing looked like it wasn't working out, he brought up Gregory Stewart, and even before that, he promoted Max Pacioretty, who is clearly not afraid to bump and get his nose dirty.

On the attack, he hedged against a possible decrease in production from Alex Kovalev by bringing in Alex Tanguay. And if letting Mark Streit go was an error, I think he mostly repaired it by fetching Mathieu Schneider.

All in all, on the player personnel front, I think Bob did his job.

Now, it is the coach's job to take what the GM gives him and get the best out of the group. Here is where Bob now has a tough decision. How to evaluate the coaching staff? Is the coach's system faulty? Well, despite what many here keep saying, I don't think it is. The same system worked much better last year, and in fact the same system is used by most NHL teams. It can't be all bad.

Is the team's troubles a fault of execution? To a large degree, yes. The players are not executing the system well enough, often enough. Whose job is it to get the best of the players again? The coaching staff.

Is the team right now capable of being a playoff team? Yes, the capability is there. Is it virtually certain that the coaches and players will achieve this goal? FAR from certain. Well, this is simply not acceptable.

I think Bob has no choice but to make a major decision on the coaching issue. Either he works with Guy every day to make him a better coach while leaving him in charge, or he brings someone else in, late in the season, or he takes on the head coach job himself. Incidentally, whatever he does, I think he needs to hire a DEFENCEMAN coach, like many teams have and the Habs themselves USED to have.

Personally, I think the idea of working through Guy is very risky; there is still the problem that communication and teambuilding is the weakness, not the system itself. Bringing someone in at this time, whether Bob Hartley or Pat Quinn or another veteran currently on the shelf, could be hard to get done. IMO, the best chance the club has to start winning again is under Head Coach Bob Gainey.

Next year, Bob can have someone new start in.

Like I said, this is not a knee-jerk reaction to one game or one week. I've been giving it a lot of thought.
Very well thought out and I agree on it however yes the talent is definitely there but to me its sporadic or inconsistent talent. Kovy talented but wonder where his head is most of the time. Koivu is talented but years of injuries, illness and abuse have taken its toll. Higgins, Pleks, Akost all very inconsistent in terms of effort and battling for pucks. Tanguay very talented but soft and perimeter. To me its the same type of talent and its redundant in its attack and inconsistent over the course of the year.

We talk about the players putting it together and playing the system, etc but a lot these guys on this team have rarely showed the willingness to buy into systems in the past yet we are somehow miffed they don't do it here.

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Old
03-08-2009, 12:31 PM
  #57
Born in 1909
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Originally Posted by MONACOBLUE View Post
I take it you have an idea to get a star player? UFAs do not want to come here, and Gainey can't blackmail them into coming to a city where the media speculates without evidence, the fans are rabid and turn on you on a dime, the weather sucks, the roads suck and taxes are high. Trades? Most good players have NTC. You have to get guys who want to come here.

Trading for a real star player is even harder. How many have been available over the last few years? Luongo. A goalie - probably not what we need. Lecavalier? Hasn't been traded yet. Jokinen - not a ****ing star and a huge locker room cancer. Seriously, ask the Panthers fans who had to suffer through him. You don't know more than them. Marian Hossa? Gainey made his offer. He judged that giving up any more would have hurt the team. You know what would've happened if we got Hossa? The team would've still lost in the semis or the ECFs. Hossa would leave. We have no Cup, no Chris Higgins, no 1st round pick. Is that what you want?

Do you really think Gainey does nothing because he can't? How hard is it to make a call and do a trade? Not that hard. How hard is it to make a good trade? MUCH harder. Gainey doesn't make these trades because they would hurt the team.
Thank you for the reality dose

some people need it.

Its true that Gainey doesn't trade UFA's at the deadline for draft picks... but those guys are needed on the team for playoff runs.

Anything can happen in the playoffs.

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:01 PM
  #58
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I just pissed Gainey hired an incompetent coach that he doesn't have the balls to fire. Never hire somebody that you couldn't picture yourself firing if need be.

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:32 PM
  #59
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lol @ Sylvain Blouin

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Old
03-08-2009, 02:45 PM
  #60
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I just pissed Gainey hired an incompetent coach that he doesn't have the balls to fire. Never hire somebody that you couldn't picture yourself firing if need be.
This is the worst anti-Gainey argument of them all.

Gainey's never said he refuses to fire Carbo. The only evidence of this is that he hasn't, and god damnit, the guy was nominated for coach of the year last year and had us in 2nd in the East at the break.

I don't really like Carbo much myself, but honestly, only very recently could any rational argument be made for his dismissal.

There is absolutely no evidence that Gainey will never fire him, or will get fired himself before taking down the coach.

That's complete BS that's somehow filtered into accepted logic on this forum.

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Old
03-08-2009, 03:08 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
This is the worst anti-Gainey argument of them all.

Gainey's never said he refuses to fire Carbo. The only evidence of this is that he hasn't, and god damnit, the guy was nominated for coach of the year last year and had us in 2nd in the East at the break.

I don't really like Carbo much myself, but honestly, only very recently could any rational argument be made for his dismissal.

There is absolutely no evidence that Gainey will never fire him, or will get fired himself before taking down the coach.

That's complete BS that's somehow filtered into accepted logic on this forum.

There's way too much of those nowadays here on the board.


Here's a novel idea for all the Gainey bashers, if you can't accept or understand (probably the latter) the variables of reality that we have in Montreal, do this :

Turn on your counsole, wait for the intro, press start.

Go to "Dynasty" menu.

Chose "Start new dynasty"

Chose your team.

Type-in your name as GM.

Go to the "Free Agents" menu, sign all the best overall players in the list to fill your team. Beware of the cap, as it is the biggest variable you will have to deal with, but don't worry about other such innanities as weather, taxes, media, other teams making offers, fanbase and anonimity.

Go to the "Trade" menu. Pick the teams you want players from. Select the lowest overall players on your team, and change to relatively higher overall players until the other team agrees to your trade. Make sure you fleece them of all low overall players that have a high potential grade. Also, note that you can sign UFAs that you don't want but will use for your trades. Note that you can also fleece them of their picks. Note that you can also reset your console after the draft if the players you picked didn't have the potential grade you thought they would have.

Go to the "Lines" menu. Make your lines to fit one playmaker with two snipers, or one playmaker with one checker and one sniper. But do not worry, things like human behavior is not taken into account here, and neither is team chemistry, so you don't have anything to worry about here.

Now you probably have a team that is really close to be a contender, and don't forget, the players will always give it their best efforts, because you control them!!! You'll even win the cvup each AND EVERY year. How great is that!!!!!!!

Now isn't that easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are now extremely qualified to be a NHL GM.

Please send your resume to George Gillet.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 03-08-2009 at 03:15 PM.
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