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Old
03-11-2009, 01:15 PM
  #1
Cutty Sarkn3ss*
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Hit/Fight under review

Ok, so I've been arguing with my co-worker about this fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEtIgRfdp4Q

As I see it, it looked like a pretty clean hit but obviously, it left Heatley slow to get to the bench.

Spezza jumps in and tangles with Phaneuf. . Obviously you respect the fact that Spezza (not a fighter) dropped the gloves with Dion.

I said that it was a good fight but my co-worker thinks that it was a bad fight because "There shouldn't be fights for clean hits".

I've told him that "Questionable hits to key players need responses."

What I want to know is, what do you guys think?

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03-11-2009, 01:18 PM
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SLang
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Clean hits shouldn't have to be defended against. They're legal and sportsmanlike. Don't want to get hit? Don't play.

That being said, teams do need to monitor their top players being targeted by other teams. There are ways of retribution other than dropping the gloves.

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03-11-2009, 01:26 PM
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ZedzDead
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The problem with your co-worker's argument is that there is no way to tell, often times, whether the hit was clean or not. Many times, players see a hit and their teammate sprawled on the ice with an apparent injury. Injuries can occur whether or not a hit is clean. The inclination to fight stems from desire for payback for causing an injury, and not only for a bad hit. I personally don't have a problem with this, even though the hit may be legal.

Now if a player suffers an injury when he really shouldn't have, that should not warrant a reaction. But I don't know if I have ever seen that!

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03-11-2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZedzDead View Post
The problem with your co-worker's argument is that there is no way to tell, often times, whether the hit was clean or not. Many times, players see a hit and their teammate sprawled on the ice with an apparent injury. Injuries can occur whether or not a hit is clean. The inclination to fight stems from desire for payback for causing an injury, and not only for a bad hit. I personally don't have a problem with this, even though the hit may be legal.
Exactly. NHL game speed is insanely fast and when you're focusing on the gameplay, you may not entirely see the hit in question. Players don't have access to slomo replays, multitudes of angles etc. to dissect whether the hit was clean.

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03-11-2009, 01:50 PM
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I see some people's point, but I just hate the fact that the ref can say.... "Ok, that was a clean hit, kick his ass". So what we're saying is the player would have to look at the ref, and if his hand is up signifying that was a dirty hit, then the player can start a fight to defend his teammate? Only if the ref's arm is up?

I don't like this at all. What if the ref misses the hit, like the knee that doughty took.

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03-11-2009, 02:18 PM
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After watching the NHL channel yesterday, this is one of the things the General Managers are looking at this week in FL. They even think they might expand the instigator rule to include fights caused by clean hits.

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03-11-2009, 02:20 PM
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Addressing the OP. Hit IS NOT clean. Phaneuf clearly brings the arm up, probably catching the smaller Heatley on the jaw with forearm/elbow. This goes back to whether the art of checking is now gone from the game.

I have no problem withe players standing up for their teammates, and I give props to Spezza for having the Cojones to go after a guy like Phanuef.

Players in the NHL have to keep their head up certainly, but in my mind if you line a player up, you have to be ready to get hit good bad clean or not

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03-11-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Addressing the OP. Hit IS NOT clean. Phaneuf clearly brings the arm up, probably catching the smaller Heatley on the jaw with forearm/elbow. This goes back to whether the art of checking is now gone from the game.

I have no problem withe players standing up for their teammates, and I give props to Spezza for having the Cojones to go after a guy like Phanuef.

Players in the NHL have to keep their head up certainly, but in my mind if you line a player up, you have to be ready to get hit good bad clean or not
IMHO, he brings the arm up after he finishes the hit, similar to what Brownie does. It doesn't look like he caught him with the elbow. .

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Old
03-11-2009, 03:04 PM
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I really dislike fights after clean hits. It's a part of the game, whether it's a hit on a fourth line scrub or a star forward.

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03-11-2009, 03:35 PM
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Hey, if making an opponent think twice about even a clean hit on your stars gives them more room and an edge for the win - do it.

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03-11-2009, 03:37 PM
  #11
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When you're on the Ice and you see your skilled teammate/friend get hammered, 90% of the time you're going to think there was something wrong with the hit, regardless of whether or not its actually clean.

Spezza had so many things going through his head at the time, unlike us, he's actually focused on playing the game. He doesn't have the benefit of watching the game like we do. In actuality it doesn't matter if we decide after watching it a couple times if it was a clean hit. It only matters what Spezza thinks 2 seconds after it happens. Obviously every player has a bias.

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03-11-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aegwillnotwinthecup View Post
I really dislike fights after clean hits. It's a part of the game, whether it's a hit on a fourth line scrub or a star forward.
I couldn't disagree with this more. You never want any of your players getting hit hard. Now I know that hockey is a physical game and it's definitely going to happen but you protect your star players. That's why you carry enforcers ... so guys know that if they take a run at any of your guys they are going to get their clock cleaned.

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Old
03-11-2009, 08:15 PM
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The Black1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLang View Post
Clean hits shouldn't have to be defended against. They're legal and sportsmanlike. Don't want to get hit? Don't play.

That being said, teams do need to monitor their top players being targeted by other teams. There are ways of retribution other than dropping the gloves.
Exactly!

And that's one of the issues I have with TM in that he wants immediate retributions for clean hits on some of our prized players. I understand the concerns with protecting a player but unless it's a dirty hit, the teams should respect the hit and play on. There shouldn't be fights because of a clean hit. Why even allow hitting in the first place?

I wonder how some of us would feel if Brownie laid a clean hit on someone causing a concussion and having their enforcer retaliate ending Brownie's career.

Where does this macho stupidity end?

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Old
03-11-2009, 10:18 PM
  #14
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If the focus during a game was to throw a bone jarring clean hit on the other team's star, you could do it. Your intent would be to not just hit them but hurt them. It would still be "clean" but it is no different than brushing a batter back with a fast ball high and inside.

I view this as exactly the opposite of most of you. If you are going to go after a star on the other team with a clean but very hard hit, expect to back it and yourself up with the consequence. So long as fighting is only penalized and not barred, it is as much part of the game after a superstar gets slammed as the hit that slammed said star.

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03-12-2009, 02:52 AM
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Hit is aaaalmost clean, but I'm gonna have to dirty, because its to the head moreso than it is an elbow.

No problem with Spezza fighting him.

I like how when discussing this "a player shouldn't have to defend himself against a clean hit" people assume that if a teammate goes after the offender, he HAS to engage in the fight. What ever happened to the days when keeping your cool while a guy gets in your face, and not retaliating if you decides to throw a punch was something players did to get in the heads of their opponents and draw a surefire instigator? I'm not condoning guys chickening out from fights on regular occassion, but if someone wants to fight you over a clean hit, don't engage him. If he tries to start crap, let him blow his cool.

If it was a dirty hit though, back it up.

I also wish however, that there was more regular hitting retaliation. While I am OK with Spezza fighting Phaneuf, in part because Phaneuf still has the choice to get in the fight (which tells me he knew it was dirty), I do think that sometimes in these situations it would be better for Spezza to wait till his next shift to give Phaneuf a real hard check as payback. Nothing dirty, obviously.

While we are talking about Phaneuf, I love (in a very sarcastic way), how the commercials for NHL Network and the NHL in general, that feature Dion, show 4 or 5 big hits in succession, and half of them are blatant elbows to the face, or hits to the numbers. They are specifically marketing his dirty hits that they don't suspend him for!

Outrageous I tells ya.

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zad
So long as fighting is only penalized and not barred, it is as much part of the game after a superstar gets slammed as the hit that slammed said star.
This is also very true. Good point.

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Old
03-12-2009, 03:11 AM
  #16
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Exactly!

And that's one of the issues I have with TM in that he wants immediate retributions for clean hits on some of our prized players. I understand the concerns with protecting a player but unless it's a dirty hit, the teams should respect the hit and play on. There shouldn't be fights because of a clean hit. Why even allow hitting in the first place?

I wonder how some of us would feel if Brownie laid a clean hit on someone causing a concussion and having their enforcer retaliate ending Brownie's career.

Where does this macho stupidity end?
Any time you see you're teammate lying on the ice you assume it wasn't a "clean" hit. You assume that there was some reason why your teammate wasn't able to protect himself from the hit. These are split second decisions. Remember when doughty got knee'd? O'Donnell didn't even see it but went over and got in the guys face and threw a cross check because he heard Doughty get hit and assumed that there was something wrong with it. Didn't Lappy say "I didn't see it but heard it and he's known for those kind of things" when Zeiler boarded Foote? Every player has a bias to protect their teammates. It doesn't matter if it looks clean to us, on the ice, the players see it differently or sometimes don't even have the benefit of seeing the hit. They see their teammate on the ice and the guy skating away from him.

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03-12-2009, 04:01 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
I couldn't disagree with this more. You never want any of your players getting hit hard. Now I know that hockey is a physical game and it's definitely going to happen but you protect your star players. That's why you carry enforcers ... so guys know that if they take a run at any of your guys they are going to get their clock cleaned.
The problem is, it's not just star players anymore (see the Mark Parrish thread on the main board) now anytime a player gets hit "hard", the hitter is expected to fight. And the Parrish example isn't the only one, hell Greene got in a fight after Sully got hit the other day. So are we at the point now where any player that is in the top 6 forwards or top 4 D gets hard there needs to be an immediate fight afterwards????

Imo this gonna start to have an impact on the amount of hits seen in a game, if every player that makes hits has to now defend himself vs a 6-4 220 monster.

And to the point about the instigator, i believe it is a great rule change (if implemented), i don't know how a guy dropping his gloves while skating at somebody that just threw a big hit wouldn't be considered instigating the fight.

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Old
03-12-2009, 04:18 AM
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I see many of you do not play Hockey or the level of Hockey where their is legal checking. Regardless if the hit is clean or not when a skill player (Meaning top 3 forward) is hit and injured you go after the guy. #1 reason is momentum you do not want the other team to feel they have the upper hand. You have to stop play even it means taking a penalty now and then.

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03-12-2009, 09:54 AM
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The Black1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcard View Post
Any time you see you're teammate lying on the ice you assume it wasn't a "clean" hit. You assume that there was some reason why your teammate wasn't able to protect himself from the hit. These are split second decisions. Remember when doughty got knee'd? O'Donnell didn't even see it but went over and got in the guys face and threw a cross check because he heard Doughty get hit and assumed that there was something wrong with it. Didn't Lappy say "I didn't see it but heard it and he's known for those kind of things" when Zeiler boarded Foote? Every player has a bias to protect their teammates. It doesn't matter if it looks clean to us, on the ice, the players see it differently or sometimes don't even have the benefit of seeing the hit. They see their teammate on the ice and the guy skating away from him.
You raise some very good points. So, what would you suggest?

There's obviously no panacea to this all-too-common-problem. Personally, I would like to take the side of caution and only retaliate if there's a penalty on the play. However, if there's no penalty, then play smart and stand up for your downed teammate and challenge the opposing player to a fight but don't take the extra penalty for it.

Like I said, there's no perfect solution and guys like O'D have a much tougher split second decision to make than I had realized. Otherwise, it wouldn't have taken 20 minutes to write this one minutes worth of posting.

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03-12-2009, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
You raise some very good points. So, what would you suggest?

There's obviously no panacea to this all-too-common-problem. Personally, I would like to take the side of caution and only retaliate if there's a penalty on the play. However, if there's no penalty, then play smart and stand up for your downed teammate and challenge the opposing player to a fight but don't take the extra penalty for it.

Like I said, there's no perfect solution and guys like O'D have a much tougher split second decision to make than I had realized. Otherwise, it wouldn't have taken 20 minutes to write this one minutes worth of posting.
My suggestion would be to just leave it the way it is.

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03-12-2009, 02:54 PM
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I have no problem with players challenging a hitter after one of their teammates gets leveled, clean hit or not. I think it's a good display of loyalty to one's teammates. I also have no problem with the challenger being given an instigator or unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for doing it. Sometimes it's worth giving the other team a power play - quite possibly giving the other team a goal - to make a point. Sometimes it's not, and in those cases you'll see less and less of these fights if there's a guaranteed penalty coming. The more often an instigator is called - the more often your fight will put your team at a disadvantage - the less often retaliatory fights over relatively trivial hits will happen. And conversely, the more often an instigator is called, the more willing the hitter may be to fight (earning his team a power play), which could lead to more fights for the fans of that. In the cases of guys like Patrick Kaleta who will no doubt look to exploit this by goading the other team into challenging them - being the real instigators in this case - you could hand out parallel unsportsmanlike conducts to offset the instigator, a la tripping/diving calls.

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Old
03-12-2009, 02:55 PM
  #22
SLang
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Originally Posted by Pucknut50 View Post
I see many of you do not play Hockey or the level of Hockey where their is legal checking. Regardless if the hit is clean or not when a skill player (Meaning top 3 forward) is hit and injured you go after the guy. #1 reason is momentum you do not want the other team to feel they have the upper hand. You have to stop play even it means taking a penalty now and then.
I don't think you have to play hockey to know that in your posted scenario you're trying to avoid an outnumbered attack. This discussion isn't necessarily focused on the player having to be injured. Big hits on stars often result in fights against the hitter even when the hittee wasn't injured.

Even though I'm really torn on this subject, I have to admit that teams have to find ways to prevent other teams taking liberties against star players. I mean, if someone runs Doughty, even if he gets up and is fine after the hit, I AM expecting payback, whether in the form of an immediate fight or a hard hit on one of the other teams stars. Sending a message could prevent a 2nd hit from which Doughty doesn't get up.

The reality is, the more they try to regulate this part of the sport, the better the odds are that the refs are going to lose control in a game, and that's when players REALLY get hurt. Anything they can do to make the players "self-policing" would be the way to go, and I don't think that's where the NHL is headed, unfortunately.

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