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Bowman's style vs. Carbonneau's style

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Old
03-11-2009, 09:50 AM
  #1
Belso
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Bowman's style vs. Carbonneau's style

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7FWhkxa8I

If you watch this video and listen to how Scotty used to coach you'd swear Carbo was trying to imitate him... But in Carbo's case it didn't work.

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03-11-2009, 09:54 AM
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It didn't work because the team Carbo had was VERY young and without set leadership. Carbonneau is best suited for a veteran team, which Bowman had.

Even Scotty failed on a young team in Buffalo. At some point, holding fingers and teaching is necessary.

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03-11-2009, 10:05 AM
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I think Carbo is a winner, and if he gets another chance to prove that, he will.

Carbo just didn't have the personnel that he wanted. He likes guys that work hard every night - like he did when he was a player. As much as BG and Carbo are friends, I think BG's and Carbo didn't see eye to eye on some things.

Carbo will work miracles with a less talented team of guys that are willing to grab their lunch pails and go to work. Guys like Kovalev, AKost, Tanguay, will have trouble with that though.

For our personnel, Guy wasn't a good fit, but he'll be a coach again someday and he'll be a good one.

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Old
03-11-2009, 10:43 AM
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mabus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Belso View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7FWhkxa8I

If you watch this video and listen to how Scotty used to coach you'd swear Carbo was trying to imitate him... But in Carbo's case it didn't work.
Wait a sec... Carbo wasn't using Bowman's style at all.

Bowman communicated with his players, he didn't blast them every night at the coach's conference. He didn't juggle his lines like a stack of cards every 15 minutes, guys like shutt and lafleur knew who they'd be playing with, they had a chance to develop chemistry. He didn't put out fourth liners when the team was down a goal with 2 minutes to go.

Carbonneau's big problem was he simply did not want to talk to the players, didn't see any reason to and created a division between them and himself.

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03-11-2009, 11:53 AM
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I don't recall seeing the Habs play a Left-Wing Lock under Carbo's tenure.

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Old
03-11-2009, 03:24 PM
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The problem was Carbo was just starting as coach.

Another important thing to add: Bowman could get away with it because he was pretty much a genius.

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03-11-2009, 03:45 PM
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The difference between styles is Carbo doesn't have one.

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Old
03-11-2009, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Wait a sec... Carbo wasn't using Bowman's style at all.

Bowman communicated with his players, he didn't blast them every night at the coach's conference. He didn't juggle his lines like a stack of cards every 15 minutes, guys like shutt and lafleur knew who they'd be playing with, they had a chance to develop chemistry. He didn't put out fourth liners when the team was down a goal with 2 minutes to go.

Carbonneau's big problem was he simply did not want to talk to the players, didn't see any reason to and created a division between them and himself.
You never watched Bowman and know nothing about his methods.

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Old
03-11-2009, 05:26 PM
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Bowman used to play around with his lines during the game which would make other coaches unable to follow what was going on which is not what Carbonneau was doing.

Carbonneau kept changing lines between games but all in all, he'd basically play lines in the same order all the time and had no skill at actually adjusting his game plan or lines during a game.

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03-11-2009, 06:13 PM
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I think folks who want to compare Carbo's methods with Bowman's are missing a couple of very obvious points:

Carbo earned his respect as a player. Virtually all of his experience is based on the perspective of a player.

Bowman earned his respect as a coach. Virtually all of his experience is based upon the perspective of a coach

With all due respect to Mr Carbonneau, trying to find a lot of similarities between him and Scotty makes very little sense. Bowman looked at running the team from so many different angles it was scary. He's an HoF coach

I never got the impression that Carbo was juggling lines to gain an edge over the opposition as Scotty did. It just seemed to confuse us more than the opposition if that was the case

I think given the chance to become more of a coaching/coach than a player/coach carbo will get better.

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Old
03-11-2009, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Wait a sec... Carbo wasn't using Bowman's style at all.

Bowman communicated with his players
Read Ken Dryden's The Game

When people started saying Carbo was fired because wasn't able to communicate, I instantly thought of Bowman. Being a distant and emotionless coach is a method that has worked in many cases, but it's either not the right method for this Habs team, or it's something Carboneau can't perfect. But it makes total sense that Gainey would hire someone that would use Bowman's approach.

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03-11-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riel View Post
Read Ken Dryden's The Game

When people started saying Carbo was fired because wasn't able to communicate, I instantly thought of Bowman. Being a distant and emotionless coach is a method that has worked in many cases, but it's either not the right method for this Habs team, or it's something Carboneau can't perfect. But it makes total sense that Gainey would hire someone that would use Bowman's approach.
What I got from "the game" was that a lot of the players didn't like Bowman but they respected him. I also got the impression that he was a perfectionist and communicated that constantly. And it made sense in a way because he was coaching some of the best squads in the history of the game loaded with future HoF players.

I think it was less a case of Bowman telling guys like Larry Robinson how to play his position than using Robinson skills to the fullest. And staying on top of all those players to play their best. Couple that with great insights in the game and you have a genius at work

The players knew exactly what Scotty wanted from them. I have no doubt about that. Comparing the demeanor of the coaches is really window dressing

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Old
03-12-2009, 11:17 AM
  #13
mabus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riel View Post
Read Ken Dryden's The Game

When people started saying Carbo was fired because wasn't able to communicate, I instantly thought of Bowman. Being a distant and emotionless coach is a method that has worked in many cases, but it's either not the right method for this Habs team, or it's something Carboneau can't perfect. But it makes total sense that Gainey would hire someone that would use Bowman's approach.
When Bowman benched a player, he told him why. He was distant from the players but he didn't leave the players totally clueless as to why he did things. He didn't bench guys like Lafleur and Shutt when they were playing WELL without explanation.

If you want to say that both coaches kept their distance from their players, ok.. fine... but to say they had the same "style" of coaching is really stretching it.

I've read Dryden's book, and you'll note that dryden also talks about how Bowman always stuck up for his players in public unless they really deserved it, Carbonneau always blasted his players, blaming them for every little thing.

Anyway, any comparison between the greatest coach of all time (2nd greatest if you prefer blake) to Carbonneau is totally off the wall I think. I Loved Carboneau as a player, but as a coach he couldn't hold a candle to Bowman.

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03-12-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tout ptit View Post
Bowman used to play around with his lines during the game which would make other coaches unable to follow what was going on which is not what Carbonneau was doing.

Carbonneau kept changing lines between games but all in all, he'd basically play lines in the same order all the time and had no skill at actually adjusting his game plan or lines during a game.
Good point.

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Old
03-12-2009, 11:31 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riel View Post
Read Ken Dryden's The Game

When people started saying Carbo was fired because wasn't able to communicate, I instantly thought of Bowman. Being a distant and emotionless coach is a method that has worked in many cases, but it's either not the right method for this Habs team, or it's something Carboneau can't perfect. But it makes total sense that Gainey would hire someone that would use Bowman's approach.
good point but the game today and the game in dryden's days are very different. you cant be a bad communicator in todays game unfortunately.

The difference I get is that back in those days, players played with pride, they still do today but on a different level, there wasnt much place for princesses and prima dona's. today this is where communication is important, weither its tough or not, you still need to communicate.

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Old
03-12-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrHockeyFan View Post
What I got from "the game" was that a lot of the players didn't like Bowman but they respected him. I also got the impression that he was a perfectionist and communicated that constantly. And it made sense in a way because he was coaching some of the best squads in the history of the game loaded with future HoF players.

I think it was less a case of Bowman telling guys like Larry Robinson how to play his position than using Robinson skills to the fullest. And staying on top of all those players to play their best. Couple that with great insights in the game and you have a genius at work

The players knew exactly what Scotty wanted from them. I have no doubt about that. Comparing the demeanor of the coaches is really window dressing
I would go re-read the book JrHockeyFan. The players hated Bowman and for the majority of the time had no idea what he had planned next.

I've read stories where Bowman would yell and scream at the players after beating a team 6-1. While after a loss, he would be perfectly quiet and not say a word. He was famous for playing head games with the players.

I've also read in Beliveau's book how Bowman was constantly running upstairs to management complaining about the players. Asking that what ever certain player he was upset with be traded on the spot.

This is part of the reason why he wasn't picked to be the GM and left to fill the position in Buffalo.

Now I'm not comparing Carbo and Bowman, not by a long shot. But saying that Bowman always communicated with his players is incorrect.

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Old
03-12-2009, 12:07 PM
  #17
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I also read The Game and yes Carbonneau was kinda trying to emule Bowman's style. Problem is we're in a new era and things have changed. Carbo learned it the hard way but props to him to always stay the same guy.

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Old
03-12-2009, 12:52 PM
  #18
Belso
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolomite View Post
I also read The Game and yes Carbonneau was kinda trying to emule Bowman's style. Problem is we're in a new era and things have changed. Carbo learned it the hard way but props to him to always stay the same guy.
I didn't read "the Game". I just saw some comparisons when listening to people saying that no one understood Scotty, but he was using things like right hand shots on face offs for example over a better player to win those faceoffs. Carbonneau seemed to be coaching in a way that baffled me on too many occasions not to recognize he was thinking something I could only imagine. But in his head, like Bowman, he thought he had an advantage.

But to be clear, in no way did I ever think Guy was a Scotty. Maybe on day he will. But to me there's God, Scotty and then everyone else..

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