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Old
03-16-2009, 09:55 AM
  #1
smon
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Jack Todd Defends Carbo

Read something interesting in the Gazette today. Jack Todd defending Carbonneau and saying he shouldn't have been fired but kept around for "organizational stability".

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Sport...084/story.html

Here's some key points:

Quote:
But every time a coach gets fired, we're told he "lost the room."

Even if it was true, I respectfully submit that Carbonneau did not "lose the room." Gainey took it away from him by undermining his authority with the players. When Gainey takes it upon himself to give the team's alleged offensive star a furlough in the heat of the battle for a playoff spot, he might as well take the whistle himself - which is what he did.
Quote:
Let's face it: Had Andre Savard matched Gainey's list of blunders, he would have been fired by now. Savard did pretty well - but lost his job anyway. And he didn't sign Sergei Samsonov, or fire Julien, or deal Mike Ribeiro for Janne Niinimaa. He didn't lose Sheldon Souray and get nothing in return. Ditto Mark Streit, now the Islanders best player.

And he didn't deal Cristobal Huet before Carey Price was ready, arguably costing the 2008 Canadiens their second-round series against Philadelphia.

Does that mean Gainey should lose his job in turn? Absolutely not. It's counter-productive. Constant change in your key positions undermines a team in every way.

The best way to succeed over the long haul is to hire good people and keep them in place.
Do you agree with his argument? Essentially... if Gainey is forgiven for his mistakes then Carbonneau should have been as well, and the players should have been told to quit whining?

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03-16-2009, 10:13 AM
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Darz
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I would disagree that Carbonneau should of been kept around. Actually, considering he still has two years left on his current deal, if another coaching position doesn't come up next summer, he could possibly be back with the organization in some capacity.

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03-16-2009, 10:16 AM
  #3
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I didn't like Carbo's blunders last year, but what could you say with the record we had.
I remember talking to a friend last year joking about Carbo's next incomprehensible line combo, I joked, "It'll be Big D our new winger for Kovy, Super D to the rescue"
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when Dandinault played 1st line winger that night.

I have been scratching his head for years now trying to understand his system or his line combos, never mind trying to understand how we won so much.

In short... Carbo had to go, I hope it's not too late.

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:17 AM
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Jack Todd is a disgrace to this city and he doesn't know anything about hockey.

That draft dodgeing loser should go back to Nebraska.

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03-16-2009, 10:18 AM
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The Gal Pals
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Why would Carbo want to stick around for "organizational stability"??? It's embarassing to be removed as coach. Carbo only came back to the Habs organization to become headcoach, why would he accept anything less?

And whether it was Carbo's fault or not, Gainey had to step in and do something.

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03-16-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turboflex View Post
Jack Todd is a disgrace to this city and he doesn't know anything about hockey.

That draft dodgeing loser should go back to Nebraska.
Yeah, but tell us how you really feel about him.

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:33 AM
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Carbo was learning his job as he went along...I don't think starting your coaching career in the NHL is the way to go...he rountinely got outcoached....and all of that is OK if you are learning in Nashville or Columbus, but not in Montreal where the expectations continued to soar, be that fair or not...

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:35 AM
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Carbo was not the sole problem but part of it. Gainey has his share of responsibility for putting together this bunch of players.

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Old
03-16-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
Why would Carbo want to stick around for "organizational stability"??? It's embarassing to be removed as coach. Carbo only came back to the Habs organization to become headcoach, why would he accept anything less?
Because if he doesn't the Habs stop paying him his high-6-figure annual salary?

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03-16-2009, 11:00 AM
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Undermining his authority? From all the reports Carbo did not even talk to his own players. Someone had to say something. Now with Gainey we're not seeing Kostopoulos play 15 mins a game. I see improvements in the game, they just need a little more time.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Undermining his authority? From all the reports Carbo did not even talk to his own players. Someone had to say something. Now with Gainey we're not seeing Kostopoulos play 15 mins a game. I see improvements in the game, they just need a little more time.
Yea, and Gainey has publicly backed up Carbo on numerous occasions. Just a few weeks prior to firing him, he said hiring Carbo was his best move over the 5years he's been here.
So, I don't know how Gainey could have been undermining his authority. If anything he's been excessively supportive.

But when you have players that usually never complain, ask to be traded, when you have most of the team tell Gainey that Carbo doesn't talk to them, then there's a problem.
Especially after what happened in Carbo's 1st season. Communication is something Guy's been criticized about many times before, the fact he still didn't improve it by his 3rd year is pathetic.

With the GM being one of his best friends, he really needed to be bad to lose his job. It's not like BG had an itchy trigger finger. He was really patient with Carbo, how many times did the media say ''if the coach isn't named Carbo, he'd be fired by now'', and now they're saying Guy didn't deserve it?..That's BS.


Last edited by Kriss E: 03-16-2009 at 11:34 AM.
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Old
03-16-2009, 11:48 AM
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ya its so easy to criticize the firing because we didn't go on a winning streak as soon as carbo was fired. bs. gainey stepped in and undermined carbo's authority because carbo wasn't do anything about the kovalev situation. and carey price fell apart in the playoffs but also was on fire going into it.

so thanks for the hindsight jack todd. hopefully your weekly column soon becomes a yearly column.

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Old
03-16-2009, 11:52 AM
  #13
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Carbs lost his job because he did not do his homework. No practice, the guys play was loose and he had no idea of what to counterattack with.
How did it get this way is simply the guy had no practice system that resulted in no system play. I would put money on the fact that they more likely practice the pp more often then a system.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:03 PM
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As bad as he is, and I do believe he's bad, never liked him as a coach, things has to change and it doesn't. Understand that you might not be able to change the mentality right away but to point in firing him now is because Gainey believes he can change it around. And he has to.

People will say that even if we lose all of our final games, Carbo was still a bad coach and you wouldn't be too far from the truth. But the main point was not to fire a bad coach, it was to do something to avoid that THIS particular year wouldn't be a disaster.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:13 PM
  #15
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Criticizing a GM for "losing a player for nothing" in the cap era, without qualifiers, merely shows not keeping up with the times. You never lose a player for nothing anymore. You get cap space, and cap space is a valuable commodity.

Therefore, you need to evaluate whether keeping the player for the last stretch of the season is superior to what you'd get for trading him away -- and in both the cases of Souray and Streit a strong argument can be made for keeping both. Surely, in the case of Streit, with the Habs in first place and looking to add a high-profile rental, dealing Streit away so as to not "lose him to nothing" made no sense what-so-ever. This leaves us with Souray, but I was never convinced the market for him was there, and the Habs were eyeing a playoff spots and had already dealt Rivet. I feel keeping Souray was not a mistake.

(I wonder why Ryder isn't on the list either. Another guy I don't feel was a mistake getting away, but while on the subject, why not throw him in?)

One can make the argument that the team should have re-signed said player as an UFA, or replaced him -- certainly something you can argue convincignly in the case of Streit. But trading these guys merely to "get something for them" is an outdated concept that has little pull in the cap era, inasmuch as it really did previously.

This needs to be cleared before someone adds "losing Kovalev, Schneider and Lang for nothing" to Gainey's list of supposed mistakes this off-season. A list that is a lot shorter if you don't buy the lose-a-player-for-nothing fallacy.

Basically, his only real clunker was Ribeiro for Niniimaa -- a trade that might well not have been done for hockey reasons. And Samsonov...

And actually, what we've heard lately about Carbonneau, how Samsonov never really struck me as lazy per se, just ineffectual... it makes me wonder these days how bad the Samsonov signing really was. He's really not a Carbo-type player, after all.

(Although I'm surprised he didn't add Garon-for-Bonk while mentioning Huet was a throw-in and basically luck. Not that that deal was really bad for either team in retrospect even without Huet in it, really.)

Frankly, after the comments that were made by the players after Carbonneau was fired, I'm pretty confident he had lost the room, in a way that coaches that are fired for "losing the room" seldom do. To a Carbo apologist like me, it was stunning and eye-opening to hear guys like Koivu go to the very limits of criticism that the diplomatic verbiage of such an occasion allows. We're not talking about Alex Kovalev here.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:23 PM
  #16
smon
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Regarding the previous post - Good points, I agree with most of them. Overall I think Gainey has done a decent job. However, Gainey didn't add a rental last season (even if he was looking to), if anything he subtracted Huet. That is a major error in my books. When the team loses UFAs then the question should be about who Gainey acquires with the cap space. In the case of Streit there clearly an error made, which was addressed only near the end of the year in getting Schneider.

I'd say Carbonneau's firing was warranted given that Gainey was in the situtation where something had to be done to try and turn this season around. I don't think he is the primary problem with the team, but he wasn't part of the solution either. I'd say he definitely did lose the respect of his players, witness Koivu's comments. Further it was surprising to see "character" guys like Begin and Dandenault requesting trades - you'd think these kinds of players would thrive under Carbonneau.


Last edited by smon: 03-16-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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Old
03-16-2009, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
However, Gainey didn't add a rental last season (even if he was looking to), if anything he subtracted Huet. That is a major error in my books.
Not an error in mine, considering how it went down. He had a deal in place with Atlanta, but Waddell held on to the last minute to try to get a better deal from Pittsburgh that may or may not have been actually better than what Gainey was offering. The fact that we know how last-minute the Hossa deal was increases the frustration, but also serves to lessen Gainey's responsability in not landing Hossa.

There was nothing Bob can do about that. Except overpay. Which would have been an error.

As for Huet... I just realized this and I'm extremely amused by it: Todd blames Gainey for losing Streit for nothing and, practically in the same sentence, blames him for getting something for Huet. Both of which occured in the same season. And he's not alone in doing that sort of thing. I think that basically speaks to the silliness of that whole getting-something-for-the-UFAs argument.

I do think that not getting a replacement for Streit was a mistake in hindsight, but Gainey moved to correct it once it became apparent. I'm not sure what more one can expect from a GM than that, unless one expects complete prescience. Remember, in the off-season, it was not apparent at all that the Habs would miss Streit so badly, and that Streit would turn out to be a capable 20-minute-plus defenseman -- so it didn't look like a mistake at the time the decision was made.

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Old
03-16-2009, 12:42 PM
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Iwishihadacup
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I loved that when somebodu actually defen Carbo, he is thrash talked like hell, when firing him did not do any good results

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03-16-2009, 12:48 PM
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Didn't Todd retire? I thought we were done with his crap.

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03-16-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
I loved that when somebodu actually defen Carbo, he is thrash talked like hell, when firing him did not do any good results
It takes more than 3 games to change the bad habits that were installed by the previous coach.

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03-16-2009, 12:54 PM
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Iwishihadacup
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It takes more than 3 games to change the bad habits that were installed by the previous coach.
Dan Bylsma say what?

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
Dan Bylsma say what?
Blysma has a GM who was willing to make trades to enhance the team.

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03-16-2009, 01:03 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
Dan Bylsma say what?
Well, Bylsma was 2-1-1 in his first 4 including -- wait for this -- an OTL to the Islanders.

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03-16-2009, 01:12 PM
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otto bond
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
I loved that when somebodu actually defen Carbo, he is thrash talked like hell, when firing him did not do any good results
It will take some time to fix all his wrong doing.
We are getting the most importan thing back and it's confidence .

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Old
03-16-2009, 01:22 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Iwishihadacup View Post
Dan Bylsma say what?
what he's saying ? something along the lines of "thank for Kunitz and Guerin", sometimes he wakes up in the night thanking the two best C in the league I heard...

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