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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

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Old
03-15-2009, 09:03 PM
  #51
cupcrazyman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Hmmm. I had Sawchuk that high initially before I realized just how short his prime was due to his alcoholism. Crazy good 5 year peak though. 46 of his 103 shutouts came from those 5 years. A couple of Conn Smythe worthy playoff performances to boot.

Plante was my choice this time around for #1 overall, Hasek and Roy 3 and 4.
i always rank the goalies from the original 6 a little higher because they played most of their career against better teams imo & the league was not watered down.

if you rank the players in their respective eras,Brodeur,Roy,Hasek are easily at the top of theirs.

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Old
03-15-2009, 09:07 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Hockey-reference.com, Wikipedia.com, the Blackhawks official site and NHL.com
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8448152
http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...pilotpi01.html
http://blackhawks.nhl.com/team/app?p...2&service=page

Pierre Pilote 5'10, 178 lbs
Tim Horton 5'10, 180 lbs

When he was a member of the Buffalo Bisons just getting into Hockey, he was 165lbs(Hockeydb.com uses weight taken during draft years or Rookie years). After a few years in the NHL, he was 178.


Him and Tim Horton were the same size.
So based on the above: hockey-reference.com Tim Horton's weight did not change, he maintained 180lbs, from 1949 to 1974 from when he was 19 until the age of 44.. No adult maturation.

Based on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Horton

the accounts by Bobby Hull and others, Tim Hoton certainly played 20lbs bigger. I remember seeing the Leafs outside the old Forum in the late 1960's when Horton and Pilote were teammates and Horton was easily the bigger man.

Recorded weights are far from accurate for the oldtime hockey players.

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Old
03-15-2009, 09:31 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
So based on the above: hockey-reference.com Tim Horton's weight did not change, he maintained 180lbs, from 1949 to 1974 from when he was 19 until the age of 44.. No adult maturation.
Because Horton worked out and made himself into a Brick House at a young age, and continued that level of physical fitness till he was an old man? Hell yes I believe he maintained a constant level of weight.

Quote:
Based on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Horton

the accounts by Bobby Hull and others, Tim Horton certainly played 20lbs bigger. I remember seeing the Leafs outside the old Forum in the late 1960's when Horton and Pilote were teammates and Horton was easily the bigger man.
I remember seeing them side by side, and they looked the same size to me.

Quote:
Recorded weights are far from accurate for the oldtime hockey players.
Sure they are.

Sorry, but the Chicago website, Toronto website, NHL website and hockey-reference Website all agree on Horton and Pilote being the same weight.

If you want to argue Horton was stronger and more built, obviously you will not get an argument from me. But Strength was not everything. Pilote was able to handle EVERY forward in the NHL about as well as they could be handled and he did as fine a job on Howe as any defenseman in the league when he played against him. He was one of the best ever at separating an opposing player from the puck.

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Old
03-15-2009, 09:32 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupcrazyman View Post
i always rank the goalies from the original 6 a little higher because they played most of their career against better teams imo & the league was not watered down.

if you rank the players in their respective eras,Brodeur,Roy,Hasek are easily at the top of theirs.
By the same token, you have to consider that the modern goalies are playing on weaker teams(If you enjoy the logic that they faced stronger teams) and that the all star selections is against 20-30 goalies instead of 6

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Old
03-15-2009, 10:20 PM
  #55
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1968-69 Maple Leafs Team Picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Because Horton worked out and made himself into a Brick House at a young age, and continued that level of physical fitness till he was an old man? Hell yes I believe he maintained a constant level of weight.


I remember seeing them side by side, and they looked the same size to me.


Sure they are.

Sorry, but the Chicago website, Toronto website, NHL website and hockey-reference Website all agree on Horton and Pilote being the same weight.

If you want to argue Horton was stronger and more built, obviously you will not get an argument from me. But Strength was not everything. Pilote was able to handle EVERY forward in the NHL about as well as they could be handled and he did as fine a job on Howe as any defenseman in the league when he played against him. He was one of the best ever at separating an opposing player from the puck.

1968-69 Maple Leaf Team Photo attached. Pierre Pilote is a tad bigger than Murray Oliver to his right and significantly smaller than Jim Dorey to his left. Hockey-reference.com listing for Dorey is 6'1", 190lbs. Looks like more than a 12 lb difference between Dorey and Pilote. Horton - seated is a bull. Definitely more than twelve lbs bigger than Pilote.

Other than Horton cannot think of a d-man that could move Howe from in front of the net. Certainly not Pilote. Separating Howe from the puck did not keep Hall from getting screened or having to play thru traffic.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 07-12-2014 at 06:32 PM.
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Old
03-15-2009, 10:22 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Hmmm. I had Sawchuk that high initially before I realized just how short his prime was due to his alcoholism. Crazy good 5 year peak though. 46 of his 103 shutouts came from those 5 years. A couple of Conn Smythe worthy playoff performances to boot.

Plante was my choice this time around for #1 overall, Hasek and Roy 3 and 4.
Same here. Before I started really paying attention, I was torn between Roy and Sawchuk as my #1. Now I agree that Plante was definitively the best goalie of the O6 era.

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Old
03-15-2009, 10:22 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Maybe this doesnt matter to some, but it holds a little bit of water

Playoff record:
Roy 151-94
Plante 71-36
Sawchuk 54-48
Brodeur 95-74
Hasek 65-49
Hall 49-65
It holds a little bit of water, but again, it's the wins thing. I think most people here point to Hasek's Buffalo years as being some of his most impressive performances. And his playoff record there was 37-30 I think. Not bad, but average. And no Cups. But some of those performances in Buffalo established, in my mind, his place among my top goalies of all time list. A great goalie can pull a below average team into the playoffs, but against tougher (playoff) opposition, those weaker teams getting exposed probably has more impact on the record than the goalie. Most of the time, anyway.

Not an argument in support of boosting Hall (the early 60s Hawks were NOT below average), just saying how much water I think the win-loss record really holds when compared across so many varied situations and generations.

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Old
03-15-2009, 10:35 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1968-69 Maple Leaf Team Photo attached. Pierre Pilote is a tad bigger than Murray Oliver to his right and significantly smaller than Jim Dorey to his left. Hockey-reference.com listing for Dorey is 6'1", 190lbs. Looks like more than a 12 lb difference between Dorey and Pilote. Horton - seated is a bull. Definitely more than twelve lbs bigger than Pilote.

Other than Horton cannot think of a d-man that could move Howe from in front of the net. Certainly not Pilote. Separating Howe from the puck did not keep Hall from getting screened or having to play thru traffic.
The photo shows nothing other than Horton having wider shoulders.

Do tell me you are not naive enough to think you can tell weight differences by looking at a picture?
I am half a foot taller than my son, and for all intents and purposes, I am also wider of shoulder, and he weighs the exact same as I do.

Pilote was terrific at covering the slot and lifting sticks, and was exceptionally effective defensively against bigger forwards. I watched him play Howe enough to know He covered him as effectively as just about anyone in his day.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 03-15-2009 at 10:59 PM.
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Old
03-15-2009, 11:01 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
The photo shows nothing other than Horton having wider shoulders.

Do tell me you are not naive enough to think you can tell weight differences by looking at a picture?
I am half a foot taller than my son, and for all intents and purposes, I am also wider of shoulder, and he weighs the exact same as I do.
Horton was without a doubt much heavier than Pilote. Pilote was a thin man, Horton was not. I've seen Gretzky listed as 6' and 185 lbs. Do you think that is accurate?
Maybe if he was hosed down with skates and all his equipment still on.

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Old
03-15-2009, 11:18 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonefly View Post
Horton was without a doubt much heavier than Pilote. Pilote was a thin man, Horton was not. I've seen Gretzky listed as 6' and 185 lbs. Do you think that is accurate?
Maybe if he was hosed down with skates and all his equipment still on.
You can be skinny and still weigh the same as a man who is wider than you. It merely depends on how the weigh is proportioned. And yes, Gretzky was 6'0 185. you are letting his weak image fool you into thinking he was smaller than he actually was.

I know he was 6'0 tall for a fact because I stood right next to him and shook his hand in the early 90's. Regarding weight, its impossible for me to tell, but 185 is completely reasonable and likely. I am not a big person, or Muscular, but I was 6'0, 195 lbs back then, and Gretzky was roughly my size.

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Old
03-15-2009, 11:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
You can be skinny and still weigh the same as a man who is wider than you. It merely depends on how the weigh is proportioned. And yes, Gretzky was 6'0 185. you are letting his weak image fool you into thinking he was smaller than he actually was.

I know he was 6'0 tall for a fact because I stood right next to him and shook his hand in the early 90's. Regarding weight, its impossible for me to tell, but 185 is completely reasonable and likely. I am not a big person, or Muscular, but I was 6'0, 195 lbs back then, and Gretzky was roughly my size.
Whatever you say...

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Old
03-16-2009, 03:38 AM
  #62
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years ago, i saw a show about the gretzky trade.

i think it said when he was traded he weighed 159 pounds (or maybe it was 169).

all the pictures i've seen of gretzky point to something around there. he was very thin.


from pictures and old games i've seen of horton and pilote, i would bet that horton was significantly heavier than pilote. horton was very stoutly built, but pilote was thin.

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Old
03-16-2009, 02:04 PM
  #63
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I know Pierre Pilote very well.. from his very 1st games as a kid in Fort Erie to throughout his NHL career and beyond. His playing weight (which he maintained strictly thru his pro career) was around 165-170. Tim Horton was a far muscular / stockier man, who I'd say weighed at the very least a good 15 pounds more than Pilote.

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