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Higgins to the Islanders

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Old
03-16-2009, 07:51 PM
  #26
grabo84
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Konk, you're looking at his stats too much. This guy has first line skills, and in the right situation can put up even better numbers than he already has. If Gainey doesn't sign him, he'd be a good target for an offer sheet. If a 25 year old whose put up multiple (four?) 20+ goal seasons isn't worth a couple of draft picks, I don't know who is.

Personally, I'd love to see the Leafs pick him up on the cheap, but it isn't likely to happen.

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03-16-2009, 08:50 PM
  #27
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I'd rather not have Higgins.

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03-16-2009, 09:24 PM
  #28
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An all-around dubious proposal... does Higgins really help a God awful Islanders team become that much better, or would they be better off holding onto those two assets and playing the patient game? (Similiarly, if they trade their first round pick, Long Island should riot...)

And the Habs would be dumb to move Higgins while his value is so low, if they even move him at all. He is still fairly young, and has a lot of positive offensive attributes. With a lot of UFAs to re-sign this summer, it just wouldn't make much sense to move Higgins too.

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03-16-2009, 09:37 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
An all-around dubious proposal... does Higgins really help a God awful Islanders team become that much better, or would they be better off holding onto those two assets and playing the patient game? (Similiarly, if they trade their first round pick, Long Island should riot...)

And the Habs would be dumb to move Higgins while his value is so low, if they even move him at all. He is still fairly young, and has a lot of positive offensive attributes. With a lot of UFAs to re-sign this summer, it just wouldn't make much sense to move Higgins too.
Yes, Higgins would really help a "god alwful Isles team" who have actually been pretty good of late. He'd also fit in perfectly with the team.

The Isles are not trading their first round so that isn't even worthy of discussion. But, given we have three 2nd rounders, there would be no harm in shipping one off for a player who is both young,relatively proven, and still has upside.

And, yeah, it might be a mistake for Habs to trade Higgins now. He still has nice upside and they probably wouldn't get fair market value.

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03-16-2009, 09:40 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Yes, Higgins would really help a "god alwful Isles team" who have actually been pretty good of late. He'd also fit in perfectly with the team.

The Isles are not trading their first round so that isn't even worthy of discussion. But, given we have three 2nd rounders, there would be no harm in shipping one off for a player who is both young,relatively proven, and still has upside.

And, yeah, it might be a mistake for Habs to trade Higgins now. He still has nice upside and they probably wouldn't get fair market value.
Agreed. Don't really want to ship off any of those high 2nds, but Higgins' age, proven play and upside make it worth it. I just wish he came with a contract in place, then it'd be a lot easier to say yes (or no, I suppose, depending on the contract) to. I think Higgins would fit in well on this team and make a good linemate for someone like Bailey or Nielsen.

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03-16-2009, 09:50 PM
  #31
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Higgins has had a pretty unproductive season so far, so he isn't in line for a huge RFA contract.

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03-16-2009, 09:51 PM
  #32
Bullet Tooth Tony
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Yes, Higgins would really help a "god alwful Isles team" who have actually been pretty good of late. He'd also fit in perfectly with the team.

The Isles are not trading their first round so that isn't even worthy of discussion. But, given we have three 2nd rounders, there would be no harm in shipping one off for a player who is both young,relatively proven, and still has upside.

And, yeah, it might be a mistake for Habs to trade Higgins now. He still has nice upside and they probably wouldn't get fair market value.
Apologies Darth, I didn't mean "god awful Isles team" as a slight... I merely wrote it to emphasize just how the Islanders are rebuilding...

And I recant my statement that the Isles would be better served in keeping him. I'm admittedly no Islander fan - though I respect just how faithful you guys are to your team... just wow - and had no idea that you guys had three second rounders. That certainly would make this proposal more viable.

But it really is a moot point seeing as I don't think that the Habs move him at this point. It goes against all conventional means of buying low and selling high, and it's not like the Habs are in cap hell and looking to pawn off any deadweights (which Higgins really isn't to even begin with!)

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03-16-2009, 10:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
Apologies Darth, I didn't mean "god awful Isles team" as a slight... I merely wrote it to emphasize just how the Islanders are rebuilding...

And I recant my statement that the Isles would be better served in keeping him. I'm admittedly no Islander fan - though I respect just how faithful you guys are to your team... just wow - and had no idea that you guys had three second rounders. That certainly would make this proposal more viable.

But it really is a moot point seeing as I don't think that the Habs move him at this point. It goes against all conventional means of buying low and selling high, and it's not like the Habs are in cap hell and looking to pawn off any deadweights (which Higgins really isn't to even begin with!)
I have to point out that Gainey's trade strategy has never really been driven by "buy low - sell high." Rather, Gainey is a guy who manages his assets and is willing to overpay when he sees a piece he needs.

That said, I don't see Gainey moving Higgins for a mid-round picks at this point in time. Habs don't have much motivation for such a move.

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03-16-2009, 10:06 PM
  #34
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I see Islanders giving out a RFA offer sheet for Higgins, Sign or will we take the pick? I like Higgins, he's trying hard 80% of every games. Partying a little too much according to some people but eh, it's Montreal.

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03-16-2009, 10:08 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HulKOMInia View Post
I see Islanders giving out a RFA offer sheet for Higgins, Sign or will we take the pick? I like Higgins, he's trying hard 80% of every games. Partying a little too much according to some people but eh, it's Montreal.

Higgins hasn't accomplished enough this year to warrant an offer sheet and he wouldn't be worth the price in terms of compensation. And, wingers are not exactly the Isles most signficant need anyway. I also don't see the Isles having the payroll room to make moves of this nature.

So, I wouldn't get my hopes up waiting for this scenario to materalize.

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03-16-2009, 10:08 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Higgins has had a pretty unproductive season so far, so he isn't in line for a huge RFA contract.
Whether or not he's in line for it isn't really the point, but more that I simply don't know what his (or perhaps more importantly, his agent's) demands would be. He'd hardly be the first player to expect/sign to an undeservedly large contract.

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03-16-2009, 10:14 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Whether or not he's in line for it isn't really the point, but more that I simply don't know what his (or perhaps more importantly, his agent's) demands would be. He'd hardly be the first player to expect/sign to an undeservedly large contract.
Well, he's making 1.7 right now, and he'll probably be asking to be around 3 mil. This is pretty much what Andrei Kostitsyn makes, which seems more or less fair to me. I don't think he'd be able to get away with asking for more than that.

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03-16-2009, 10:14 PM
  #38
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I don't believe the Islanders would trade their 1st round pick except under the most extreme circumstances. It would not benefit the organization to do so and Milbury's not in charge anymore.

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03-16-2009, 10:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
let the Islanders fans/management find that out!I wouldn't give him more then 4.5 a year
How much would you have given Hainsey or Redden? It has nothing to due with worth or value, everything to do with the market.

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03-16-2009, 10:39 PM
  #40
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I don't think Higgins can hope for the 1st LW spot on the Habs next year, as I really, really think Alex Tanguay will come back next year. On a 60-minute basis, he's both the best offensive producer and the best defensive player (more like, guy that was on the ice for lowest number of goals allowed). So IF Higgins remains here, that will be either as a 2nd LW, 3rd LW or 3rd C (I don't think he can be a center on an offensive-minded line).

Now, it's up to Bob Gainey to decide whether such a player is worth 3 millions. I think it is, but nobody should forget about the rather good possibility that Max Pacioretty makes the team full-time next year. The other LW on the depth chart against whom Higgins is in competition is Guillaume Latendresse, but Lats is probably the easiest guy to move on the RW among this group. Lats and Higgins' combined salary will be +- 2.2 millions next year.

That's probably why everybody considers Higgins expendable. However, a 2nd pick for him?!?!?! I mean... It's not like the Habs will REALLY have to get rid of him, unless they get a high-priced player via trade (in which Higgins is extremely likely to be used as packaging material for reasons mentionned above) or free agency.

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03-16-2009, 10:41 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by HulKOMInia View Post
I see Islanders giving out a RFA offer sheet for Higgins, Sign or will we take the pick? I like Higgins, he's trying hard 80% of every games. Partying a little too much according to some people but eh, it's Montreal.
Let's just say that if the team making an offer is the Islanders or the Trashers and that said offer sends a 1st in Montreal : DON'T SIGN!!!

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03-16-2009, 11:10 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Konk View Post
A 27 goal season, one of them.
Yes, so let's diminish it.

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It's still not 30 goals
Which implies that a 30 goal scorer = not a third liner. Anything <30 goals = third liner. Hardly. Many third liners do not even net 20 goals.

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and yes, Chris Higgins is a 2nd line fill-in when he's hot, but he's inconsistent
Indeed. Which is exactly why I'd be interested in him. Buy low/sell high. Contrary to HF "logic". It's easy to identify players when they are performing, another to identify talent unrealized that can still be optimized.

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I think it's safe to say that if you're throwing away a first rounder on a 50 point player that might only be around for a couple of seasons you're probably not going to have a job as a GM for very long...
Indeed. Because as we know, all 1st rounders are gold...especially late first rounders.

Fact is, I would not trade the Isles second #1 this June for Higgins. However, that does not detract from the reality that many here over-value draft picks. And I'll defer to your perspective that he has worn out his welcome in Montreal. Likewise, you might defer to an Isles fan (of which there are many) as to whether or not he might be worthy player of consideration to improve that team. At the right price, he would be, IMO.

PS - I am not among the crowd who gets caught up in the stats game when it comes to steretyping players are 1st, 2nd or 3rd liners. Is Chrsi Kunitz a top six forward? His numbers say no, as would the stats devotees here. But he was one on a Cup winner and was acquired by Pittsburgh to be one, too (And all they've done since acquiring him is win.) Not suggesting Higgins is as consistent a player as Kunitz (he's not and Kunitz contributes every night, even if he is not scoring), but again, personal numbers are not the end all. Purely speculation, but I could see Higgins flourishing alongside a top-end talent like Taveras, for example.


Last edited by Trottier: 03-16-2009 at 11:25 PM.
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Old
03-17-2009, 10:29 AM
  #43
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Which implies that a 30 goal scorer = not a third liner. Anything <30 goals = third liner. Hardly. Many third liners do not even net 20 goals.
Not necessarily, no. It was not my implication, rather that's what you've inferred on your own. I believe Higgins is a 2nd/3rd liner, mind you I have stated previously that I believe he can fill in on the 2nd line, not all players play on one line their whole lives. His talents are such that he's effective playing against the other team's top lines, but he has some offense to him as well, it comes and goes.

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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Indeed. Which is exactly why I'd be interested in him. Buy low/sell high. Contrary to HF "logic". It's easy to identify players when they are performing, another to identify talent unrealized that can still be optimized.
If you think he still has more in him than what he's shown in his career that's your opinion, I happen to disagree.

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Indeed. Because as we know, all 1st rounders are gold...especially late first rounders.
Duh. However, not all 1st rounders are garbage as you would have us believe, not even late 1st rounders.

Here are some recent late 1st rounders that are doing well: Patrik Berglund, Mike Green, David Perron, T.J. Oshie, Matt Niskanen, and Cam Ward from the same year Higgins was drafted 14th overall. I'd say a few of those have more potential than Higgins, some are already better (while younger). Of course the chances aren't extremely high that you're going to get one of those players, but if you look every year at least one of those late 1sts emerge as an impact player. Like I said, I think the Islanders desperately need to swing for the fences on a potential star player more than they need a complimentary player.

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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
Fact is, I would not trade the Isles second #1 this June for Higgins. However, that does not detract from the reality that many here over-value draft picks. And I'll defer to your perspective that he has worn out his welcome in Montreal. Likewise, you might defer to an Isles fan (of which there are many) as to whether or not he might be worthy player of consideration to improve that team. At the right price, he would be, IMO.
I think it's funny you spend all of this time arguing and in the end, you agree with the result.

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PS - I am not among the crowd who gets caught up in the stats game when it comes to steretyping players are 1st, 2nd or 3rd liners. Is Chrsi Kunitz a top six forward? His numbers say no, as would the stats devotees here. But he was one on a Cup winner and was acquired by Pittsburgh to be one, too (And all they've done since acquiring him is win.) Not suggesting Higgins is as consistent a player as Kunitz (he's not and Kunitz contributes every night, even if he is not scoring), but again, personal numbers are not the end all. Purely speculation, but I could see Higgins flourishing alongside a top-end talent like Taveras, for example.
I could see just about any player flourishing next to a top-end talent like Tavares. However, I was not stat-picking Higgins to categorize players based on statistics. Rather, some Montreal fans look at Higgins as a future 40 goal scorer, I'm simply showing he hasn't scored that much yet, due to his inconsistency and injuries. IMO, the strongest part of Higgins' game isn't his offense, it's his hard work, two-way play, and leadership ability. That would probably be very beneficial to have with Tavares, but not at the expense of a 1st rounder.

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03-17-2009, 02:31 PM
  #44
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Well Garth Snow is an idiot, he'll probably trade down again, which honestly I hope doesn't happen since I'd really like to see the Isles succeed again.
Have you got verified, Mike Milbury-style proof of Snow being an idiot or does that adjective just apply to anyone who's GMing the Islanders?

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03-17-2009, 02:33 PM
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Have you got verified, Mike Milbury-style proof of Snow being an idiot or does that adjective just apply to anyone who's GMing the Islanders?
I think trading down and drafting Josh Bailey when you could've had Luke Schenn or Nikita Filatov is pretty good proof. It's not an Islanders GM thing, it's more to do with that fact that Charles Wang thought, for whatever reason, that his former backup goalie would somehow magically be the best candidate to run the Isles. Do many Isles fans dispute this? I'd like to know, honestly.

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03-17-2009, 03:06 PM
  #46
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I think trading down and drafting Josh Bailey when you could've had Luke Schenn or Nikita Filatov is pretty good proof. It's not an Islanders GM thing, it's more to do with that fact that Charles Wang thought, for whatever reason, that his former backup goalie would somehow magically be the best candidate to run the Isles. Do many Isles fans dispute this? I'd like to know, honestly.
It seems that Wang saw something in Snow - whenever or whatever it might have been - and felt that he could do this job and felt he'd rather give someone he knows a shot than just go out and get a respected name - like Neil Smith - who couldn't come to terms with the franchise run of things.

Surely, Snow was not hired based on "qualifications". It was a buddy-move.

Islander fans certainly discuss the merits thereof and of Snow's moves bis dato. If I had to guess, a good 50% are pretty satisified with him. I'd say that a good 80% just feel it's too early to make any fair judgement whatsoever. Besides, it doesn't look like there's any reason to believe that his job is in jeopardy. The team's success by the 10-11 season will likely be a good barometer of Snow and whether his GMing on Long Island will continue or not.

As for last summer, I truly think it's not fair or accurate to imply that the Islanders' draft strategy was idiotic. It may yet prove to be... there was risk involved. It wasn't conventional. On the other hand, it could ultimately prove to have been absolutely brilliant. When all is said and done, we have a player who has surprisingly proved NHL-capable coming right out of the draft while having added a good (extra) number of decent prospects in the process.

I have no doubt that Schenn will be a fine, fine NHLer in his own right and I'll never compare him directly to Bailey (unless Bailey proves much better) but the Islanders basically chose against JUST Schenn or JUST Filatov (or just Boedker or just Wilson for that matter) in favor of Bailey, Ness, Ullstrom, Niemi and TOR's 2nd this summer. This didn't please a lot of Islander fans, that's for sure.

Still, the moves were by no means proof of idiocy. Only time will tell if they were a mistake, but the Islanders got good grades for the draft from most publications and while Bailey (prolly rushed a bit) has shown NHL acumen, a number of other guys the Isles took have been very good this season in their respective leagues (particularly Donovan, Martin, Dibenedetto and Spurgeon).

Just off hand, we took a defensive player named Travis Hamonic with our fourth pick last summer. He was taken a bit higher than he was ranked (75th in NA). The staff thought very highly of him and he's been referred to as "a poor man's Luke Schenn". He's played for a lousy Moose Jaw team this season and has put up 13-27-40 with 126 PMs and 8 fights in 57 games, with a wretched -31 rating. Still, if you love your Schenn, keep an eye on the development of Hamonic. He was invited to the Canadian WJC camp and many feel he'll be signed this summer. It's a logical thought that the scouting staff knew very well that it was gonna grab Hamonic with the belief that he could ultimately fill the same role as Schenn would have here, which led them to get a few extra picks in the process.

All in all, you can say you think Snow is green, non-convention and well, not a very wise GM, but his moves to date certainly do not earn the earmarking of "idiot". That's just not accurate.

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03-17-2009, 03:42 PM
  #47
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Well Garth Snow is an idiot, he'll probably trade down again, which honestly I hope doesn't happen since I'd really like to see the Isles succeed again.
brilliant post

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03-17-2009, 03:48 PM
  #48
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I think it's funny you spend all of this time arguing and in the end, you agree with the result.
I actually agree with the thread opener's suggestion of a 2nd and a prospect, although it had better be a middling prospect.

Please know that I was not "arguing", that was your inference.

I simply somewhat disagreed, respectfully, with your projection (not assessment) of Higgins, and your take on NYI's approach toward personnel moving forward. To clarify further, you are 100% correct that this franchise needs to add some "top-end" talent in the draft (and, if the opportunity presents itself, via trade or UFA). No question. but I do not see it as an "either/or" situation. That is to say, Higgins, with all of his imperfections, is an upgrade on LW for NYI...and I do not foresee that homerun hitter being readily available on LW currently. Nor for that matter, do I see him being necessary, immediately.

But it's OK to disagree.

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03-17-2009, 05:31 PM
  #49
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brilliant post
Saying I'd like to see your franchise succeed again isn't to your liking? Oh well. I can't speak for other Isles fans but I can't imagine too many of them agree with Garth Snow as a GM, and some of his decisions thus far. He did steal a 1st from Ottawa, which is gonna be a good pick since the Sens are god awful, I'll give him credit for that.

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03-17-2009, 05:38 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Rayne View Post
Saying I'd like to see your franchise succeed again isn't to your liking? Oh well. I can't speak for other Isles fans but I can't imagine too many of them agree with Garth Snow as a GM, and some of his decisions thus far. He did steal a 1st from Ottawa, which is gonna be a good pick since the Sens are god awful, I'll give him credit for that.
It's San Jose's pick.

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