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Old
03-18-2009, 03:39 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
Ok fine, lets see if he does get traded for a 1st round pick. Overpaid second pairing defencemen. Go for it Isles. This will just make the OIlers weaker.
He's 2 years younger than Bieksa with 1 less point, and makes a slight bit more.

Hardly overpaid.

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03-18-2009, 03:39 PM
  #27
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As a long time Redskins fan, I've learned that just because it looks like a team will be in cap hell down the road, it doens't mean they will be.

Staios buyout: $1.47M savings
Moreau buyout: $1.42M savings
Penner trade: $4.25M savings
Either Souray or Visnovsky trade: $5.4M - $5.6M savings

all of which make more sense for the Oilers than trading Gilbert for 50 cents on the dollar (or less considering they wouldn't be wanting to take any salary back).
If a team is taking on Penner's contract, you better be sure that the Oilers are going to get a contract that is just as bad back. No one is taking Penner for a pick.

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03-18-2009, 03:41 PM
  #28
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If a team is taking on Penner's contract, you better be sure that the Oilers are going to get a contract that is just as bad back. No one is taking Penner for a pick.
^ This.

I doubt we trade Penner anyway.

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03-18-2009, 04:03 PM
  #29
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Gilbert's value is about equal to Whitney's. He's locked up to a better deal, and isn't getting the same Ice Time as Whitney did. He's playing "2nd Pairing" Minutes because of our coachs boneheaded way of promoting burned-out veterans. In fact until Visnovsky was hurt, the Souray-Gilbert pairing was playing tough minutes for the Oilers and succeeding.

So, looking at the Whitney trade as a template, Gilbert's worth is somewhere around a decent-good top-6 winger and a top-er prospect.

Before anyone even suggests trades (many of them boneheaded), remember that the only way the Oilers trade him is for improvement in their top-6. Someone like a James Neal comes to mind as the perfect fit for the Oilers.
Gilbert isn't even getting 2nd pairing minutes. He's behind only Visnovsky in terms of icetime at even strength, and he's 3rd in all purpose minutes only because Souray gets over 5 minutes of powerplay time a game. He also plays the toughest minutes on the team. Gilbert is a top pairing defenseman, and he's been getting great results in that role in both of his first two NHL seasons. Saying he is anything less, or will be anything less for the duration of his contract, is an ignorant statement that goes against all the facts.

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03-18-2009, 05:47 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by hemskyforpm View Post
He's 2 years younger than Bieksa with 1 less point, and makes a slight bit more.

Hardly overpaid.

Yea but the thing is Bieska is a better player then Gilbert. If you don't believe me start a poll on a Gilbert vs Bieska. Before the poll is done, I already know Bieska is gonig to win it. I don't use stats to compare crap. If this is the case, Bieska is at Dion Phaneuf's level, but he's not. Stop using stats as means to compare players!!!


ANYWAYS, if he will fetch the Oilers a late first round pick, then go for it. Do it. I wouldnt mind this. This will make them weaker down the road, and it will also save them money.

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03-18-2009, 05:57 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
thats overpayment. Would you give a 1st rounder let alone add another 3rd round pick for a guy who is a second paring defencemen?
I don't think it's overpayment. He's a fringe 1st pairing D-man, and a great 2nd pair. I would give up the 1st on a guy who could bust over a guy that's been proven like Gilbert.

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Old
03-18-2009, 08:22 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
Yea but the thing is Bieska is a better player then Gilbert. If you don't believe me start a poll on a Gilbert vs Bieska. Before the poll is done, I already know Bieska is gonig to win it. I don't use stats to compare crap. If this is the case, Bieska is at Dion Phaneuf's level, but he's not. Stop using stats as means to compare players!!!


ANYWAYS, if he will fetch the Oilers a late first round pick, then go for it. Do it. I wouldnt mind this. This will make them weaker down the road, and it will also save them money.
So did Bieksa put up 30+ Points as a 24 year old? Was Bieksa named to the all-rookie team over guys like Erik Johnson? Has Bieksa ever played an 82 game season since 06-07? Has Bieksa ever been a plus player at any point in his career?

I can guarantee you Gilbert would have much more trade value than Bieksa. Putting up 40 Points playing second-tier minutes on a blueline that is very offensive-minded is nothing short of an accomplishment. Gilbert has never had the privilege of having guys like Ohlund and Mitchell cover up for his defensive mistakes, or let him play sheltered minutes against soft compeition. The guy was thrown to the wolves since his rookie season last year, and has been steady ever since.

Also, the thing I'd like to point out the most, is that Gilbert never slumped after recieving his contract extension. It just shows you who will be the better player in the long run.

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Old
03-18-2009, 08:40 PM
  #33
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I've always used Tyutin as a modern day comparison (age + size + skill + performance + trade value) for Tom Gilbert. For the extra $1M/yr, Gilbert can play on the top pairing and produces more points at ES.

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03-18-2009, 09:16 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by voxel View Post
I've always used Tyutin as a modern day comparison (age + size + skill + performance + trade value) for Tom Gilbert. For the extra $1M/yr, Gilbert can play on the top pairing and produces more points at ES.
I stated above that a good benchmark for his value is Ryan Whitney's trade.

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Old
03-18-2009, 09:19 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
thats overpayment. Would you give a 1st rounder let alone add another 3rd round pick for a guy who is a second paring defencemen?
And hey if a Gilbert top 20 in Defensive scoring is not worth a 1st rounder?
Then Daniel and Henrik who are not in the top 20 in forward scoring can't be worth more than 2nd Round pick each after thay are signed.

Your hockey world is funny!

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Old
03-18-2009, 10:14 PM
  #36
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So did Bieksa put up 30+ Points as a 24 year old? Was Bieksa named to the all-rookie team over guys like Erik Johnson? Has Bieksa ever played an 82 game season since 06-07? Has Bieksa ever been a plus player at any point in his career?

I can guarantee you Gilbert would have much more trade value than Bieksa. Putting up 40 Points playing second-tier minutes on a blueline that is very offensive-minded is nothing short of an accomplishment. Gilbert has never had the privilege of having guys like Ohlund and Mitchell cover up for his defensive mistakes, or let him play sheltered minutes against soft compeition. The guy was thrown to the wolves since his rookie season last year, and has been steady ever since.

Also, the thing I'd like to point out the most, is that Gilbert never slumped after recieving his contract extension. It just shows you who will be the better player in the long run.
How does that make him better? You know what, go over there right now, if you makes you feel better. Make a poll who has greater trade value, Gilbert or Bieska. I don't care, I'm just saying hes not worth a 1st and a 3rd, and if he is worth that much good for you guys.

Pretty lame comparison your using. I assume you think Gagner is going to be as good as Ovechkin because at the age of 18, he had more points then him? Stupid comparison, I can't believe you will actually resort to the, ( he has more points at this age then this player did at this age). Typical OIler fan stradegy.

so yea, if it makes you feel better, make a poll. Who has more trade Value , Bieska for Gilbert.

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03-18-2009, 10:22 PM
  #37
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If Gilbert is in fact on the move the Oilers should try and use his value to dump Horcoff or Penner's hideous contract.

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Old
03-18-2009, 11:02 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
You can debate which of Grebeshkov or Gilbert is better until you're blue in the face, but what I don't understand is the idea that it's either one or the other. There's really no reason why we can't keep both, and guys like them are incredibly hard to come by.

Trading Gilbert to make room for Grebes doesn't make any sense at all. Gilbert is a huge part of this team's future.
Because Grebs will get 3 mill per season next year and he'll likely want a 3-5 year deal. We'll be pressed for cap space when Gagner and Cogliano's contracts are up and we still need to sign another winger and a starting goalie for next year and Horcoff's raise will eat more cap space.

If we sign Grebs to a 3 year multiyear deal it'll leave us with little money to land a top 6 forward and a quality goalie and when the cap falls after the 09/10 season we'll be forced to trade him and there will be tons of other teams hurting for cap space and that'll hinder our bargaining power which means we'll get less for him then than we would at the end of this season.

It's either him or Gilbert or now or we trade him or Gilbert for 1/2 of their value later.

I really don't get why people don't get this. It's simple math.

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03-18-2009, 11:20 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
Yea but the thing is Bieska is a better player then Gilbert. If you don't believe me start a poll on a Gilbert vs Bieska. Before the poll is done, I already know Bieska is gonig to win it. I don't use stats to compare crap. If this is the case, Bieska is at Dion Phaneuf's level, but he's not. Stop using stats as means to compare players!!!


ANYWAYS, if he will fetch the Oilers a late first round pick, then go for it. Do it. I wouldnt mind this. This will make them weaker down the road, and it will also save them money.
So if I went out and said Liam Reddox was at Alex Burrows' level, you'd have absolutely no problem with my logic?

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Old
03-18-2009, 11:34 PM
  #40
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AgentNaslund is a guy who wont change his opinion. Even if he's wrong he won't give up till you do.

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03-18-2009, 11:52 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by misfit View Post
You can debate which of Grebeshkov or Gilbert is better until you're blue in the face, but what I don't understand is the idea that it's either one or the other. There's really no reason why we can't keep both, and guys like them are incredibly hard to come by.

Trading Gilbert to make room for Grebes doesn't make any sense at all. Gilbert is a huge part of this team's future.
Souray,Visnovsky, Gilberts and Grebeshkov could combine to be like 17-18 million, a lot for 4 defenseman.

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03-19-2009, 12:25 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
How does that make him better? You know what, go over there right now, if you makes you feel better. Make a poll who has greater trade value, Gilbert or Bieska. I don't care, I'm just saying hes not worth a 1st and a 3rd, and if he is worth that much good for you guys.

Pretty lame comparison your using. I assume you think Gagner is going to be as good as Ovechkin because at the age of 18, he had more points then him? Stupid comparison, I can't believe you will actually resort to the, ( he has more points at this age then this player did at this age). Typical OIler fan stradegy.

so yea, if it makes you feel better, make a poll. Who has more trade Value , Bieska for Gilbert.
A poll based on a homeristic spam fest.

THAT PROVES IT.

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03-19-2009, 01:39 AM
  #43
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How does that make him better? You know what, go over there right now, if you makes you feel better. Make a poll who has greater trade value, Gilbert or Bieska. I don't care, I'm just saying hes not worth a 1st and a 3rd, and if he is worth that much good for you guys.

Pretty lame comparison your using. I assume you think Gagner is going to be as good as Ovechkin because at the age of 18, he had more points then him? Stupid comparison, I can't believe you will actually resort to the, ( he has more points at this age then this player did at this age). Typical OIler fan stradegy.

so yea, if it makes you feel better, make a poll. Who has more trade Value , Bieska for Gilbert.
It's obvious you are clearly idiotic with this post. Yes, stats do matter. Yes, age does matter. Yes, the contract does matter.

Just ask your own GM about those things, it's his M.O.

So Brodziak is as good as Kesler in your mind?

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03-19-2009, 03:11 AM
  #44
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AgentNaslund is a guy who wont change his opinion. Even if he's wrong he won't give up till you do.
Well, how do you not argue against Bieska not being better then Gilbert? I also agreed with some others who think Gilbert is worth the 1st round, and I even said I hope the OIlers do it. Geeze Kane, what the **** is your problem. Learn to read. The only thing im defending is Bieska being a better player then Gilbert.

Quote:
So if I went out and said Liam Reddox was at Alex Burrows' level, you'd have absolutely no problem with my logic?
I don't care. I was just saying Gilbert was not worth a 1st and a 3rd, then other fans kindly responded that, he is probably worth that much, then I said, well they are probalby right, then a Oiler fan compared him to Bieska which basically started everything. Funny how Oiler fans will always bring in another player in comparison. Another

Quote:
A poll based on a homeristic spam fest.

THAT PROVES IT.
Ok there buddy. There are more non CAnuck fans then Canuck fans. It's fair. Theres also more OIler fans here then Canuck fans. If Gilbert is better then I was wrong, and I under estimated his abilities. Cmon, sometimes were wrong about something. Habs fans think our team sucks. We have more points then them.


Quote:
It's obvious you are clearly idiotic with this post. Yes, stats do matter. Yes, age does matter. Yes, the contract does matter.

Just ask your own GM about those things, it's his M.O.

So Brodziak is as good as Kesler in your mind?
Stats matter. But in thise case Kevin Bieksa is actually above Dion Phaneufs level. He has 3 fewer points then him, but 10 less games. I assume, based on your stats logic, hes at Phaneufs level? Greg Gilbert is also at Phaneuf's level? Geeze, gimme a break.

Anyone else feeling bored and want to disagree with me just for the sake of it? I feel like a target here.

Is Brodziak as good as Kesler? Sure why not, Do you guys still think the OIlers are better then the Canucks? I don;t even know who the hell is Kyle Brodziak.

Again, I don't want to argue. It seems like everyone just wants to gang up on me. Fine with me. If you want, make a poll. Bieksa vs Gilbert. I don't care. I could be wrong, nothing new about that.

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03-19-2009, 04:39 AM
  #45
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Lol at pathetic oilers fans saying that gilbert has more trade value than bieksa.

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03-19-2009, 04:44 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
Well, how do you not argue against Bieska not being better then Gilbert? I also agreed with some others who think Gilbert is worth the 1st round, and I even said I hope the OIlers do it. Geeze Kane, what the **** is your problem. Learn to read. The only thing im defending is Bieska being a better player then Gilbert.



I don't care. I was just saying Gilbert was not worth a 1st and a 3rd, then other fans kindly responded that, he is probably worth that much, then I said, well they are probalby right, then a Oiler fan compared him to Bieska which basically started everything. Funny how Oiler fans will always bring in another player in comparison. Another



Ok there buddy. There are more non CAnuck fans then Canuck fans. It's fair. Theres also more OIler fans here then Canuck fans. If Gilbert is better then I was wrong, and I under estimated his abilities. Cmon, sometimes were wrong about something. Habs fans think our team sucks. We have more points then them.




Stats matter. But in thise case Kevin Bieksa is actually above Dion Phaneufs level. He has 3 fewer points then him, but 10 less games. I assume, based on your stats logic, hes at Phaneufs level? Greg Gilbert is also at Phaneuf's level? Geeze, gimme a break.

Anyone else feeling bored and want to disagree with me just for the sake of it? I feel like a target here.

Is Brodziak as good as Kesler? Sure why not, Do you guys still think the OIlers are better then the Canucks? I don;t even know who the hell is Kyle Brodziak.

Again, I don't want to argue. It seems like everyone just wants to gang up on me. Fine with me. If you want, make a poll. Bieksa vs Gilbert. I don't care. I could be wrong, nothing new about that.
I guarantee you that bieksa is a much better player than overrated gilbert

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Old
03-19-2009, 05:11 AM
  #47
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Gilbert will score 40 points playing 22 minutes a game. He doesn't get that much PP time, just over 2 minutes a game mostly on the second unit. It's his second season in the NHL and he's a +7 doing it. Yeah, he's real overpaid and overrated at 4 per. Damn trolls.

You'll be extremely lucky to get a defenseman like him in the last-15 picks of the draft. A first rounder just does not cut it. He's the exact type of asset who will command a much larger return on the open-market (top-pairing puck movers - so unneeded) then a board like this, that places WAY too much value on futures, would grant.

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03-19-2009, 05:22 AM
  #48
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Gilbert will score 40 points playing 22 minutes a game. He doesn't get that much PP time, just over 2 minutes a game mostly on the second unit. It's his second season in the NHL and he's a +7 doing it. Yeah, he's real overpaid and overrated at 4 per. Damn trolls.

You'll be extremely lucky to get a defenseman like him in the last-15 picks of the draft. A first rounder just does not cut it. He's the exact type of asset who will command a much larger return on the open-market (top-pairing puck movers - so unneeded) then a board like this, that places WAY too much value on futures, would grant.
Not saying that gilbert is terrible, he's a decent second pairing d he's still overrated, but not overpaid. Btw oiler fans are the biggest trolls here, not saying that you are one.

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03-19-2009, 05:28 AM
  #49
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It's obvious you are clearly idiotic with this post. Yes, stats do matter. Yes, age does matter. Yes, the contract does matter.

Just ask your own GM about those things, it's his M.O.

So Brodziak is as good as Kesler in your mind?
So hansen is as good as hemsky in your mind because he's younger?

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03-19-2009, 05:30 AM
  #50
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I could see grebeshkov leaving instead of gilbert.

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