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Regarding Tom Renney

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Old
03-18-2009, 01:32 PM
  #51
Boom Boom Geoffrion*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
he had 3.5 years, and never made it past the 2nd round. And id argue the team last season had more talent on it than any other in the eastern conference....even the Penguins. IMHO under Renney we always played down to the opposition, rather than playing up to our potential.
There have been countless talented teams that fell to lesser opponents in pretty much every professional sport. I don't think Renney is as much to blame for our inability to get past the second round as our lack of depth.

Buffalo was the superior team, with a lot more depth than us two years ago. Same with Pittsburgh last season.

Two season's ago we had Malik, last season we had Backman. Two bone-headed players forced to play in vital situations against exceptional forwards. That's a recipe for disaster, regardless of who's coaching.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
He did a fabulous job in letting Jagr do his thing and staying the hell out of his way during the lockout, but as we got more and more "pieces of the puzzle" he seemed to get worse and worse results.

people always seem to forget the 2 miraculous runs we needed to go on for the last 2 seasons just to barely squeak into the playoffs.
There are a multiple amount of components that will alter various aspects of the team. Lundqvist, and our Rangers, have had mid-season slumps. We were able to overcome the slump, which is a positive sign, not a negative one. Sure it would have been great if that situation never presented itself, but you can't only look at it one way, especially since there are about 2 dozen other people in the organization who play just as big a role as a Head Coach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Renney wasnt a bad coach, not by any stretch of the imagination, but hes had a helluva lot more to work with than most coaches do, and he didnt get all he could out of them. AND, his teams were almost always healthy, which is a really big deal compared to other teams. He just wasnt in tune with the players he had, and the glaringly obvious need to play an attack style of hockey with said players.
Agreed. I don't think Tom was able to get the most out of his players, unlike some other coaches. That could be due to his docile personality. Or his inexperience. Maybe a combination of both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
In his first year, he did a good job of identifying the style we needed based on the talent we had. Puck Possession. The last 2 years we should have played a hybrid puck possession- attack style. This year we most definitely should have played an attack style. 90% of this message board could realize that. Renney could not.
Agreed again. I still think he lacked confidence in our players, and it eventually rubbed off on them. But you have to consider that everyone has their own style, and you preach what you know. Renney might have been the right fit for this team, but the players were not the right fit for Renney. Again, you have to look at the person who's bringing these player in. Especially since he knows the type of coach he has.

You can't expect Renney to go outside of the box. A coach will stay within his boundaries, especially if he's had past success with it. I don't really fault Renney for not trying to open things up a bit more, because that's not an area he's tutored in.

If this current group of players wanted to play Renney's system, I think you would have seen a lot more consistency from them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Why? because most, if not all coaches dont adapt to their teams, they want their teams to adapt to them. Carboneau wanted the habs to play a defensive style of hockey, that really doesnt suit their talent.
Renney has a system he likes to play. It becomes Sathers responsibility to bring in players that can play the system that's already been somewhat successful. You can criticize Renney, because he is ultimately at fault for falling short of expectations, but most of the blame should be put on the man who makes the final decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
So, in some aspects, both Renney and Sather are at fault. To play Tom Renney hockey, we need a team filled with Brandon Dubinskys (imho) Big, strong skaters, and can play the boards really well. Most of our forwards as assembled are not good board players. To play Glen Sather hockey, Renney needed to adapt his system.
In some aspects, the players are equally at fault as well, something I think you missed.

I think people have a tendency to over-analyze things. Professional athletes know the game is played on the ice/field. In pretty much every sport, the goal is to outscore you opponents. You create opportunity's by outworking them.

This isn't rocket science. The players know what they have to do to be successful. As absurd as it sounds, you can eliminate every head coach in the league, and have the players coach themselves, and the game still doesn't change. It's still You Vs Him. Player Vs Player.

Our players simply didn't beat their opposition enough. Personally, I blame everyone, starting with Sather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Neither happened, and you get what we got today. A team that, sans Henrik Lundqvist, should have been a lottery team.
I wouldn't go that far. But I do very much agree that Lundqvist has made this team look a lot better than it actually is. And he's done it for 4 years straight now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Square Pegs, Round Holes. Its always been a problem. Right now though, I think Sather has the right coach, coaching the right group of players. The talent level has been increased, and the coach we have matches the talent (though im not convinced Naslund, and Antropov are right fits for this kind of hockey...but we'll see)
The round holes were in place before the square pegs were brought in. That's a huge reason why I still feel that Sather didn't do his part to set Renney up for success.

If you put someone in a situation to fail, don't be surprised when they do, and definitely don't fault them when it happens.

It's hard for anyone to overcome numerous disasters that without any doubt, crippled this team for the next few season's.

We (still) have zero exceptional 1st line talent. Jagr's role was never replaced. I remember discussing this team in August with various people on various forums. Pretty much everyone knew this current team would struggle scoring goals. I wonder what the hell Sather was thinking with the moves he made.

Redden? Voros/Rissmiller/Fritsche? Naslund? Kalinin? These are the players Sather brought in to replace Avery/Jagr/Straka/Shanny..

Again, you need an excellent coach to overcome the mistakes that Sather made. At this stage in his career, Renney simply isn't an excellent coach. He's a young coach that lacks the experience to overcome the numerous steaming pile of horse**** moves Sather made.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Ive never been as pumped about a Rangers team, heading into the playoffs, as i am now....except possibly in 1997...well and of course 1994, but i was just a stupid kid back then.
I was 14 in '94

Probably just as stupid as you


Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
Im not going to jinx this team, but...well...i can see us doing some damage in the playoffs, we just seem to match up so well against every team in the east, even the Devils (now). The only teams in the East who i think we dont match up well against are the Penguins, the Canes, and the Sabres. Its highly unlikely we will face any of those teams till late in the playoffs just because of the way the standings will likely end up being.
I can see us doing better as well. We upgraded the head coaching position, and the assistant coaching position.

We're playing a system that's better suited for our current players. We also upgraded 3 key positions with Avery, Antro, and Morris.

We seem to have a lot more confidence now too. Believe me, you're not alone with what you're feeling.

No team in the east scares me. Nobody is unbeatable. Devils/Bruins are 2 very good hockey clubs, but there is plenty of reason to believe this current team, can compete.

Despite my liking for Renney, I would take Torts over him any day of the week. But I won't discount the things Renney accomplished in his 3.5 years here. Nor will I solely blame him for our teams demise.

There was a combination of things that ultimately affected Renney to the point where he wasn't capable of overcoming them. The blame should be spread out; From our GM, to our Coach, and the Players. Everyone is at fault, imo.

I do credit Sather for the late-moves he's made which seems to have salvaged our season. But I won't for one second, believe Renney is more responsible for the issues we had, than Sather.

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Old
03-18-2009, 02:42 PM
  #52
Inferno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
There have been countless talented teams that fell to lesser opponents in pretty much every professional sport. I don't think Renney is as much to blame for our inability to get past the second round as our lack of depth.

Buffalo was the superior team, with a lot more depth than us two years ago. Same with Pittsburgh last season.

Two season's ago we had Malik, last season we had Backman. Two bone-headed players forced to play in vital situations against exceptional forwards. That's a recipe for disaster, regardless of who's coaching.





There are a multiple amount of components that will alter various aspects of the team. Lundqvist, and our Rangers, have had mid-season slumps. We were able to overcome the slump, which is a positive sign, not a negative one. Sure it would have been great if that situation never presented itself, but you can't only look at it one way, especially since there are about 2 dozen other people in the organization who play just as big a role as a Head Coach.



Agreed. I don't think Tom was able to get the most out of his players, unlike some other coaches. That could be due to his docile personality. Or his inexperience. Maybe a combination of both.



Agreed again. I still think he lacked confidence in our players, and it eventually rubbed off on them. But you have to consider that everyone has their own style, and you preach what you know. Renney might have been the right fit for this team, but the players were not the right fit for Renney. Again, you have to look at the person who's bringing these player in. Especially since he knows the type of coach he has.

You can't expect Renney to go outside of the box. A coach will stay within his boundaries, especially if he's had past success with it. I don't really fault Renney for not trying to open things up a bit more, because that's not an area he's tutored in.

If this current group of players wanted to play Renney's system, I think you would have seen a lot more consistency from them.



Renney has a system he likes to play. It becomes Sathers responsibility to bring in players that can play the system that's already been somewhat successful. You can criticize Renney, because he is ultimately at fault for falling short of expectations, but most of the blame should be put on the man who makes the final decisions.



In some aspects, the players are equally at fault as well, something I think you missed.

I think people have a tendency to over-analyze things. Professional athletes know the game is played on the ice/field. In pretty much every sport, the goal is to outscore you opponents. You create opportunity's by outworking them.

This isn't rocket science. The players know what they have to do to be successful. As absurd as it sounds, you can eliminate every head coach in the league, and have the players coach themselves, and the game still doesn't change. It's still You Vs Him. Player Vs Player.

Our players simply didn't beat their opposition enough. Personally, I blame everyone, starting with Sather.



I wouldn't go that far. But I do very much agree that Lundqvist has made this team look a lot better than it actually is. And he's done it for 4 years straight now.



The round holes were in place before the square pegs were brought in. That's a huge reason why I still feel that Sather didn't do his part to set Renney up for success.

If you put someone in a situation to fail, don't be surprised when they do, and definitely don't fault them when it happens.

It's hard for anyone to overcome numerous disasters that without any doubt, crippled this team for the next few season's.

We (still) have zero exceptional 1st line talent. Jagr's role was never replaced. I remember discussing this team in August with various people on various forums. Pretty much everyone knew this current team would struggle scoring goals. I wonder what the hell Sather was thinking with the moves he made.

Redden? Voros/Rissmiller/Fritsche? Naslund? Kalinin? These are the players Sather brought in to replace Avery/Jagr/Straka/Shanny..

Again, you need an excellent coach to overcome the mistakes that Sather made. At this stage in his career, Renney simply isn't an excellent coach. He's a young coach that lacks the experience to overcome the numerous steaming pile of horse**** moves Sather made.






I was 14 in '94

Probably just as stupid as you




I can see us doing better as well. We upgraded the head coaching position, and the assistant coaching position.

We're playing a system that's better suited for our current players. We also upgraded 3 key positions with Avery, Antro, and Morris.

We seem to have a lot more confidence now too. Believe me, you're not alone with what you're feeling.

No team in the east scares me. Nobody is unbeatable. Devils/Bruins are 2 very good hockey clubs, but there is plenty of reason to believe this current team, can compete.

Despite my liking for Renney, I would take Torts over him any day of the week. But I won't discount the things Renney accomplished in his 3.5 years here. Nor will I solely blame him for our teams demise.

There was a combination of things that ultimately affected Renney to the point where he wasn't capable of overcoming them. The blame should be spread out; From our GM, to our Coach, and the Players. Everyone is at fault, imo.

I do credit Sather for the late-moves he's made which seems to have salvaged our season. But I won't for one second, believe Renney is more responsible for the issues we had, than Sather.
this is a really good post. and while i disagree with some of what you say here, i just want to point out that i thought this was a really well put together post.

Cheers!

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Old
03-18-2009, 03:28 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
....we're the new york frikkin rangers. We deserve the best coach money can buy. And outside of Brent Sutter, I truly believe we have it.
Ahmen brotha!

Like Renney or not, if Crosby or Malkin were available and you could trade Gomez for him, the deal would be done in a second. Torts is a stud of a coach, was available, and the team waived Renney and signed Tortorella.

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Old
03-18-2009, 03:41 PM
  #54
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Excellent post, BBG. Even Sather would agree with it.

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