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Old
03-18-2009, 02:04 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
So who is worthy? Jesus Christ himself? You are being ridiculous. I can understand if you came out and said you would not trade Malkin for any offer, but to basically imply that there is an offer out there that you would accept and JT isn't worthy of being a key part of it just doesn't make sense to me.

Give me an example of a player worthy enough to be a key component of a package for Malkin.
I likely wouldn't trade Malkin for any offer, but for arguments sake if I did, it wouldn't be centered around a guy who hasn't even played in the NHL. You need at the very least a young player performing at a high level in the big league to kick things off. You make it sound like if JT can't get it done then nobody could lol. This guy right now is hype and nothing more, dozens upon dozens of players have looked all that lets see how he performs after his first couple of seasons and then contemplate if he is worthy of being mentioned with Malkin because right now he sure as hell doesn't.

Yes, by dismissing the idea of trading the 22 year old almost assured at this point Art Ross winner, for a package based on a guy who has never even played in the NHL I am indeed being ridiculous.

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03-18-2009, 02:22 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
I likely wouldn't trade Malkin for any offer, but for arguments sake if I did, it wouldn't be centered around a guy who hasn't even played in the NHL. You need at the very least a young player performing at a high level in the big league to kick things off. You make it sound like if JT can't get it done then nobody could lol. This guy right now is hype and nothing more, dozens upon dozens of players have looked all that lets see how he performs after his first couple of seasons and then contemplate if he is worthy of being mentioned with Malkin because right now he sure as hell doesn't.

Yes, by dismissing the idea of trading the 22 year old almost assured at this point Art Ross winner, for a package based on a guy who has never even played in the NHL I am indeed being ridiculous.
You make it seem like any deal centered around Tavares would consist of JT and then a few scrubs. Obviously there will be 2 or 3 more quality pieces involved. I just find it funny that you instantly dismiss a package centered around Tavares when in reality there aren't many more valuable trade chips than the 1st overall pick in the draft this offseason, REGARDLESS of how inexperienced the guy is right now.

I can understand wanting proven youth, such as a deal centered around a guy like Phaneuf. But then what would you add to that from Calgary? This is why I thought the original proposal was a decent one since you are getting 2 extremely valuable assets in return. JT(arguably a top-5 asset this offseason) and Streit(considering his talent, salary AND the fact he's in his prime, I'd say he is a top-10 NHL defenseman value-wise). Maybe I am overrating their values and that isn't enough, but I'd say that those two are at least a hell of a start and could get the ball rolling on a deal.

On the other hand if the guy just isn't getting traded, this is all moot. But if there is a package out there that could get Malkin, I find it hard to believe that package wouldn't at least get Pittsburgh's attention.

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03-18-2009, 02:27 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
You make it seem like any deal centered around Tavares would consist of JT and then a few scrubs. Obviously there will be 2 or 3 more quality pieces involved. I just find it funny that you instantly dismiss a package centered around Tavares when in reality there aren't many more valuable trade chips than the 1st overall pick in the draft this offseason, REGARDLESS of how inexperienced the guy is right now.

I can understand wanting proven youth, such as a deal centered around a guy like Phaneuf. But then what would you add to that from Calgary? This is why I thought the original proposal was a decent one since you are getting 2 extremely valuable assets in return. JT(arguably a top-5 asset this offseason) and Streit(considering his talent, salary AND the fact he's in his prime, I'd say he is a top-10 NHL defenseman value-wise). Maybe I am overrating their values and that isn't enough, but I'd say that those two are at least a hell of a start and could get the ball rolling on a deal.

On the other hand if the guy just isn't getting traded, this is all moot. But if there is a package out there that could get Malkin, I find it hard to believe that package wouldn't at least get Pittsburgh's attention.
There are dozens of more valuable trading chips than the first overall pick in this draft in the league lol. No that package wouldn't get Pittsburghs attention in the slightest, Sharks pick = late meh, Streit comes absolutely nowhere close to making up the difference between Malkin and JTs value right now. Malkin dominates the best players in the world, when JT even starts competing against the best players in the world then let me know. Until then you have complete HF syndrome, hyped prospects=comparable to proven commodity. Arguably a top 5 asset this off season? Malkin, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Crosby, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Iginla, Luongo, blah blah blah blah blah I could go on and ****ing on listing assets that have more value than the first pick in this draft. You act like JT is pre draft Lindros or something lol.

You just hang onto your completely unproven commodities, the Pens will hang onto our arguably best player in the world and everyone will be happy

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Old
03-18-2009, 02:39 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I can understand wanting proven youth, such as a deal centered around a guy like Phaneuf.
One could scarcely start at a worse place. The only reason to make a trade involving Malkin or Crosby, in theory, would be to get more quality pieces at cheaper prices, because there are some obstacles to having two players on 8.7 million per.
Phaneuf is not making pennies and unlike Malkin who is a steal in terms of his production, Phaneuf is - for now - grotesquely overpaid compared to his peers (age/quality).

Leaving aside the typical everything you own now and five years into the future demands, if the cap really does go down to the levels its been talked about, if Shea Weber and Zach Parise were both on the same team, well... that would be something to think about, considering they're both great, young, and on tremendous deals. If Doughty, Brown, LA 1st was offered... well, gotta at least give that a few seconds of thought for what you could come to do with that.

But you simply don't contemplate dealing a perennial 100 point player and pre-season favorite Ross/Hart winner who hasn't even approached what will likely be his prime years for something unproven. Or anything short of an insane offer, really.

The vast majority of teams in the league simply don't have the assets that would make sense both quality/cap wise. And it would obviously need to achieve both for Shero to listen.

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03-18-2009, 09:21 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
As an Islanders fan I wouldn't do this..... Streit and whoever we could get with that #1 will surely go as far in helping this franchise win as any one Malkin could...
This is funny.

And the rest of the people in here that think a player who hasn't even been drafted yet is better than a player who is crushing the NHL in scoring at the current moment, and came in 2nd last year while carrying his team on his back.

Last year on TSN, they put Tavares behind Stamkos as far as who would GM's take. We all see how that worked out. Ask TB if they would currently want Malkin or Stamkos.

Even if the 1st overall pick is a superstar...he probably still won't be better than Malkin.

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03-18-2009, 09:50 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
This is funny.

And the rest of the people in here that think a player who hasn't even been drafted yet is better than a player who is crushing the NHL in scoring at the current moment, and came in 2nd last year while carrying his team on his back.

Last year on TSN, they put Tavares behind Stamkos as far as who would GM's take. We all see how that worked out. Ask TB if they would currently want Malkin or Stamkos.

Even if the 1st overall pick is a superstar...he probably still won't be better than Malkin.
i think maybe youre misunerstanding...or maybe some people are stating it that way, but to the isles, the AMOUNT of picks/players theyd have to deal for one malkin doesnt make sense. thats what i was trying to get at in my last post. malkin is obviously world-class, however, a package of our best players and high picks would do nothing except kill the rebuild...malkin would obviously be the centerpiece of the franchise then, but who does he play with? hilbert and park? the cupboard would be empty, and all thatd be left is one geno malkin. THATS why the isles couldnt trade for him, not bc he isnt a stud or franchise player...its bc hed be alone

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03-18-2009, 10:29 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Even if the 1st overall pick is a superstar...he probably still won't be better than Malkin.
Prolly not.... but could that player AND Streit together likely play a bigger role in making the Islanders be a winner than any one Malkin? I believe so....

It's a moot point anyway, since we'll never find out for real.

Furthermore, surely Malkin is the best player mentioned in this thread... reason enough for the Pens NOT to make such a deal.... but until Malkin brings what he does on a team that has NO other superstar, like Ovechkin has clearly done in Washington, there's no telling if Malkin could come close to the success he's had in Pittsburgh, where surely a good 60% of his goals and assists saw Crosby having a hand in the matter - and vice versa of course.

As for Streit, I can't even imagine what type of numbers he would be capable of if he got to play on a PP with Crosby OR Malkin all year, much less both of them.

As for the original deal, the Islanders are better off at this stage of the game (i.e. almost finished with step 1 of their rebuild) with Streit and their two 1st rounders this summer than with Malkin alone.

I won't deny that there is some good reason for temptation though.

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03-18-2009, 10:36 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
Prolly not.... but could that player AND Streit together likely play a bigger role in making the Islanders be a winner than any one Malkin? I believe so....

As for the original deal, the Islanders are better off at this stage of the game (i.e. almost finished with step 1 of their rebuild) with Streit and their two 1st rounders this summer than with Malkin alone.

I won't deny that there is some good reason for temptation though.
Do you remember the Leafs trade with Calgary for Doug Gilmour in the early nineties? It was a similar deal, a bunch of young talent and established players for a star and a few other pieces. The team that gets the best player usually wins the deal in the end, and Malkin is unquestionably the best player in this deal. Even if all of those players play up to potential, and there's no guarantees of that, I'd still probably rather have Malkin.

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03-18-2009, 10:42 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Do you remember the Leafs trade with Calgary for Doug Gilmour in the early nineties? It was a similar deal, a bunch of young talent and established players for a star and a few other pieces. The team that gets the best player usually wins the deal in the end, and Malkin is unquestionably the best player in this deal. Even if all of those players play up to potential, and there's no guarantees of that, I'd still probably rather have Malkin.
Boom. Well said.

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03-18-2009, 11:09 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Do you remember the Leafs trade with Calgary for Doug Gilmour in the early nineties? It was a similar deal, a bunch of young talent and established players for a star and a few other pieces. The team that gets the best player usually wins the deal in the end, and Malkin is unquestionably the best player in this deal. Even if all of those players play up to potential, and there's no guarantees of that, I'd still probably rather have Malkin.
True, good example...

Just for clarity, I did also write: "Furthermore, surely Malkin is the best player mentioned in this thread... reason enough for the Pens NOT to make such a deal...."

As you mention, it's often said that the team getting the best player wins the deal.
As such, it'd be of advantage for the Pens' GM to take heed of your reminder, wouldn't it?

In general though, we Islander fans saw Milbury change the course and go for the quick fixes a number of times.... it got us nowhere. It's of more interest now to have a GM who just sees this thing through the right way. We're not at a stage now where a Malkin and his contract - much less his NEXT contract - are gonna put the Islanders over the top, much less at the cost of our top player and what'll likely BE our top player in the future. There's no telling if Malkin could turn this team into a contender in his time here, even if some fans may think his "Top 5" leaguewide billing ensures it.

It simply doesn't.

At the end of the day, I'm not saying Malking isn't "worth" what's suggested, asset for asset.... it just isn't a wise choice for the Islanders (or even Pitt for that matter) at this point in time of their respective phases in the NHL.

Still, personally, at the pace the Islanders are going now, I truly believe that Streit and the #1 this summer will have a greater impact on the success of this franchise when it's ready to have success than just Malkin would. I wouldn't be making that claim if it were Ovechkin we were talking about, who has proven he can do ohhhhh so much, even when there isn't much help around. It's surely not his fault, but Malkin has had Crosby there since day one and without getting into semantics, I'm not sold on Malkin being a guy who could do for the Islanders (with little talent) what Ovechkin did for the Caps (with little talent). But that's just me.

Now, if Malkin continues to be a topscorer while Streit simply remains what he is and the two picks flop, then I'll think "Darn, if only Shero had read that post by Blinkman and had forced Snow to make that trade, none of this would happen".


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Old
03-18-2009, 11:16 AM
  #86
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Oh, I understand CIsle, I was more just adding to what you had said. It's more about the symbolism of trading your young talent away than the actual deal itself. It's the same reason Luke Schenn is a complete no go in trade proposals with Leaf fans, way beyond his actual value.

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03-18-2009, 11:25 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Oh, I understand CIsle, I was more just adding to what you had said. It's more about the symbolism of trading your young talent away than the actual deal itself. It's the same reason Luke Schenn is a complete no go in trade proposals with Leaf fans, way beyond his actual value.
And if Burke ever trades him......... ohhhhh, that city will go on a riot!

Well, unless it's for Malkin, of course.

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03-18-2009, 02:26 PM
  #88
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Evgeni Malkin is NOT avaliable!

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03-18-2009, 03:58 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
So who is worthy?

Give me an example of a player worthy enough to be a key component of a package for Malkin.
No one.

Just as no one is worthy of Crosby. Or Ovechkin. And perhaps, literally, a very small handful of other players in this league.

This is a point often unappreciated here when the silliest of silly trade proposals is offered up, such as this one.

One (not me) could argue, I suppose, that Kyle Okposo, this year's 1st overall and another early #1+ is relative trade value for Malkin. But deals are not predicated simply on getting equal value, as much as filling a need. As such, one needs to view any deal in context.

Focus only on the "value" and you come out declaring the Pens getting "PWND!" for moving Whitney (the "bestest" player in the deal with the shiniest numbers) for Kunitz+. Meanwhile Shero guessed that Kunitz would fit like a glove alongside his trio of centers. To date, he looks genius. (And that is not to say that Whitney will not turn out to be the correct acquisition for the Ducks.)

I hate to be blunt, but there is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY no reason on earth why Ray Shero should even consider moving Malkin...even if he can get "greater value" whatever that means. As such, these threads are moot. Fun perhaps, but not to be taken the least bit seriously. And they get even more farcical the longer they go on.

I would bet my last dollar Ray Shero gets no calls from GMs inquiring about either Malkin or Crosby. Likewise, McPhee never gets calls about Ovechkin, Lou about Brodeur, Holland about Lidstrom and Datsyuk and so on.

Because it is illogical..and borderline insulting.

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03-18-2009, 04:03 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
So who is worthy? Jesus Christ himself? You are being ridiculous. I can understand if you came out and said you would not trade Malkin for any offer, but to basically imply that there is an offer out there that you would accept and JT isn't worthy of being a key part of it just doesn't make sense to me.

Give me an example of a player worthy enough to be a key component of a package for Malkin.
No, it seems pretty reasonable considering what Malkin's accomplished to date, and the fact that he's under contract for the next 5 years. Look at Malkin's achievements in historical perspective, take his age and era into consideration, and you'll realize that his first few seasons are more impressive than almost every HOF member outside of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. Prove me wrong.

Trading that calibre a player would be a monumental cluster-****.

There is no good reason to trade Malkin, and anything that could possibly tempt the Pens from a value perspective would cripple the wooing team.

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03-18-2009, 09:03 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
No one.

Just as no one is worthy of Crosby. Or Ovechkin. And perhaps, literally, a very small handful of other players in this league.

This is a point often unappreciated here when the silliest of silly trade proposals is offered up, such as this one.

One (not me) could argue, I suppose, that Kyle Okposo, this year's 1st overall and another early #1+ is relative trade value for Malkin. But deals are not predicated simply on getting equal value, as much as filling a need. As such, one needs to view any deal in context.

Focus only on the "value" and you come out declaring the Pens getting "PWND!" for moving Whitney (the "bestest" player in the deal with the shiniest numbers) for Kunitz+. Meanwhile Shero guessed that Kunitz would fit like a glove alongside his trio of centers. To date, he looks genius. (And that is not to say that Whitney will not turn out to be the correct acquisition for the Ducks.)

I hate to be blunt, but there is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY no reason on earth why Ray Shero should even consider moving Malkin...even if he can get "greater value" whatever that means. As such, these threads are moot. Fun perhaps, but not to be taken the least bit seriously. And they get even more farcical the longer they go on.

I would bet my last dollar Ray Shero gets no calls from GMs inquiring about either Malkin or Crosby. Likewise, McPhee never gets calls about Ovechkin, Lou about Brodeur, Holland about Lidstrom and Datsyuk and so on.

Because it is illogical..and borderline insulting.
That is what I assumed, but with the way that poster(can't remember his/her name) phrased that post, I took it as "there are deals that could get Malkin, but the 1st overall pick isn't a good enough asset to be a key part of one." If he would have came out and said that, regardless of what package they were offered, Malkin wouldn't be traded, then I would have backed off since that is completely understandable.

BTW, some people really need to chill out. Obviously 99% of the proposals on this board will never happen, I just think it's fun to debate the value of certain players, even if they are guys who will most likely never be traded. I just will never understand how/why people take it so personally when their top player is included in a fan-made proposal.

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03-18-2009, 09:27 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
That is what I assumed, but with the way that poster(can't remember his/her name) phrased that post, I took it as "there are deals that could get Malkin, but the 1st overall pick isn't a good enough asset to be a key part of one." If he would have came out and said that, regardless of what package they were offered, Malkin wouldn't be traded, then I would have backed off since that is completely understandable.

BTW, some people really need to chill out. Obviously 99% of the proposals on this board will never happen, I just think it's fun to debate the value of certain players, even if they are guys who will most likely never be traded. I just will never understand how/why people take it so personally when their top player is included in a fan-made proposal.
"I likely wouldn't trade Malkin for any offer, but for arguments sake if I did..."


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03-18-2009, 09:46 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
"I likely wouldn't trade Malkin for any offer, but for arguments sake if I did..."

Are you really as big of a tool as you come across? The quote you just listed came 3 posts into our arguement. Prior to that you were implying that there are offers out there that could get Malkin, but Tavares isn't a good enough asset to build one around.

Good job though posting that picture. You must have been half-massed throughout that entire quest from looking it up to actually posting it, in hopes of making me look stupid. Maybe instead you should have used that time to actually read what was discussed yesterday.

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03-18-2009, 09:47 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
Furthermore, surely Malkin is the best player mentioned in this thread... reason enough for the Pens NOT to make such a deal.... but until Malkin brings what he does on a team that has NO other superstar, like Ovechkin has clearly done in Washington, there's no telling if Malkin could come close to the success he's had in Pittsburgh, where surely a good 60% of his goals and assists saw Crosby having a hand in the matter - and vice versa of course.

Wow this is a ridiculous statement that shows how little hockey knowledge you have. Malkin plays on a like with Fedotenko and Sykora. He plays with Crosby on the power play and sometimes takes a few shifts with him. Ovechkin plays on a line with Backstrom and Semin. Backstrom is an incredible setup man and Semin would be among the league leaders in points had he not gotten hurt. Semin and Backstom are much better players that Sykora and Fedotenko. The Ovechkin has "no other talent around him" excuse ended 2 years ago. Instead of listening to stereotypes from years ago you should try watching a few games.

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03-18-2009, 09:53 PM
  #95
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Wow this is a ridiculous statement that shows how little hockey knowledge you have. Malkin plays on a like with Fedotenko and Sykora. He plays with Crosby on the power play and sometimes takes a few shifts with him. Ovechkin plays on a line with Backstrom and Semin. Backstrom is an incredible setup man and Semin would be among the league leaders in points had he not gotten hurt. Semin and Backstom are much better players that Sykora and Fedotenko. The Ovechkin has "no other talent around him" excuse ended 2 years ago. Instead of listening to stereotypes from years ago you should try watching a few games.
I agree the Ovechkin "has no talent around him" comment was off, but I do think he has a point with Malkin, even taking into account he doesn't play with Crosby. The main thing I can think of is Crosby playing against opposing team's top shutdown lines/defensive pairings, making life a little easier for Malkin. How much that actually ends up helping him is debatable, but it definately is a help. Also the PP, as you mentioned, is a huge help.

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03-18-2009, 10:04 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
Are you really as big of a tool as you come across? The quote you just listed came 3 posts into our arguement. Prior to that you were implying that there are offers out there that could get Malkin, but Tavares isn't a good enough asset to build one around.

Good job though posting that picture. You must have been half-massed throughout that entire quest from looking it up to actually posting it, in hopes of making me look stupid. Maybe instead you should have used that time to actually read what was discussed yesterday.
What "quest" all I had to do was type reading comprehension into google and select image search lol. It was right there. Tavares isn't a good enough asset to build a proposal around for Malkin.

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03-18-2009, 10:10 PM
  #97
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Id give up our whole roster for Malkin

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03-18-2009, 10:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I agree the Ovechkin "has no talent around him" comment was off, but I do think he has a point with Malkin, even taking into account he doesn't play with Crosby. The main thing I can think of is Crosby playing against opposing team's top shutdown lines/defensive pairings, making life a little easier for Malkin. How much that actually ends up helping him is debatable, but it definately is a help. Also the PP, as you mentioned, is a huge help.
Malkin has seen the shutdown defense pairing more often than not this year. He also works behind the goalline in the defensive zone and does a great job with it. He doesn't look for outlet passes from the faceoff circles out he is working downlow creating them. Also, any difference in coaches matching lines because of Crosby is negated by the fact that Ovechkin's linemates are much much better players than Malkins.

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03-18-2009, 10:32 PM
  #99
Hockeygod66
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Originally Posted by Guins71 View Post
Malkin has seen the shutdown defense pairing more often than not this year. He also works behind the goalline in the defensive zone and does a great job with it. He doesn't look for outlet passes from the faceoff circles out he is working downlow creating them. Also, any difference in coaches matching lines because of Crosby is negated by the fact that Ovechkin's linemates are much much better players than Malkins.
regardless I think that theory can simply be tossed out the window by the fact that malkins production has never decreased while crosby has been out of the lineup and the pens have a pretty amazing win/loss record while crosby is hurt and malkin is largely that reason.

I remeber last year people started noticing malkin more when crosby was out with his high ankle sprain and malkin was pretty much carrying the team on his own and doing it quit succesfuly he become the leader in points for the nhl till ovechkin took it back.

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03-19-2009, 08:38 AM
  #100
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by Guins71 View Post
Wow this is a ridiculous statement that shows how little hockey knowledge you have.
Please read once again what I wrote: ".... but until Malkin brings what he does on a team that has NO other superstar, like Ovechkin has clearly done in Washington, there's no telling if Malkin could come close to the success he's had in Pittsburgh, where surely a good 60% of his goals and assists saw Crosby having a hand in the matter - and vice versa of course."

Does Ovechkin have a Crosby-level player (i.e. one of the top 5 players in the NHL) to play with, even if just on the PP???

Has Ovechkin played on a team that had another 90 point man, much less another 100 point man, to help out when he's slumping?

Has Malkin, since he arrived in the NHL, spent PP time with Sidney Crosby???

Has Malkin, since he arrived in the NHL, spent time on a line with Sidney Crosby???

If you can answer the first two questions with anything other than NO and the last two questions with anything other than YES, then you may perhaps start to indicate that I maybe, just maybe wrote something that might have slightly shown that I perhaps, in a moment of weakness, have little hockey knowledge.


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The Ovechkin has "no other talent around him" excuse ended 2 years ago. Instead of listening to stereotypes from years ago you should try watching a few games.
Once again, please read what I wrote: ".... but until Malkin brings what he does on a team that has NO other superstar, like Ovechkin has clearly done in Washington, there's no telling if Malkin could come close to the success he's had in Pittsburgh, where surely a good 60% of his goals and assists saw Crosby having a hand in the matter - and vice versa of course."

Semin is extremely talented and Backstrom is an extremely crafty and intelligent player.

Neither is Sidney Crosby - a superstar.

Although it's not the issue here, I doubt I'm the only one who would want Ovechkin on my team more than Malkin. As an Islander fan, I'd not do the deal suggested by the OP for Malkin. I'd do it in a heartbeat for Ovechkin.

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