HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Kovalev on Carbo: we had a tought time following him

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-19-2009, 07:35 AM
  #51
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,724
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
He said a lot of players were asking themselves why. So, if they didn't know why, it comes back to the communication question. Carbo can say whatever he wants to the media, I don't think every player reads the sports section in the papers the next day or watches Sportscenter at night. So, if he doesn't tell his players about his reasons, they'll probably don't know why.

As for the ''no juice left in the tank'' argument. Carbo is the coach, time management of his players during a game is a big part of his duties behind the bench. It's up to him to manage his lines in order for his best players to still have energy at the end of the game. There's also such a thing as a ''timeout'' that Carbo rarely used.

Also, I'm not sure Kovalev is necessarily saying he wanted to stay with Plek/A.Kost all season. But Plek/MaxPac/Kovy was a line that worked rather well and he also played well with Lang. Who knows what line he's talking about.
But he also said many players were asking themselves that question. So it's not just concerning him. Kovalev, Koivu, Plekanec, Lang, Tanguay, Higgins, Lats, S.Kost, A.Kost were all moved around left and right during the season. Note that all these players are more puck control players, so they actually need to develop chemistry that can take a lot more time than players like Lappy or Kosto that will always play the same way in just dump/chase/keep puck towards boards type of strategy.

A guy like Latendresse that started the season really well with Koivu/Tanguay and some PP time saw his icetime cut short at ES and his PP IT eliminated after Higgins came back. Putting Kosto on first line, making Lappy/Kosto play 20min a game, putting Metro on 5-3, etc..
Also, I'm sure if Carbo explained to the players concerned why he gave them less Ice Time, why he moved them or why he scratched them, they wouldn't have been asking themselves these questions.

Carbo said it himself, he came from an era where you learned you were scratched if you had a white towel in front of your locker or not. But times have changed, he realized that too late.
Treating your veterans the same way as your youngsters is also a no-no. Can you imagine if someone that just started working at the same company you do got all the same benefits/vacation time you got after being there for 15years??..I don't know too many people that would accept that. So why should it be any different in hockey??..

What Kovalev says in the end, can all be linked to what we all heard, lack of communication.
Lack of communication? These guys are freakin crybabies. They just had to work hard and play well and it would have never been a problem. Kovalev is the least professional hockey player i've ever seen.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 08:38 AM
  #52
TheCH*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,060
vCash: 500
Kovalev is the man!

TheCH* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 08:43 AM
  #53
jnthomas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 679
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to jnthomas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Lack of communication? These guys are freakin crybabies. They just had to work hard and play well and it would have never been a problem. Kovalev is the least professional hockey player i've ever seen.
I work hard every day. But I might be working hard in the wrong direction. If my boss doesn't tell me I won't be able to fix it. If my boss starts giving projects to other people in the company and not to me, I might wonder why but figure, "hey I work hard, if something was definitely wrong, he'd tell me. It might be someone else in my team who doesn't carry his load."

The coach's job is make tactical strategies (something Carbo was not really strong on) and get everyone working in the same direction. If he doesn't go out and talk to his players, then there is a very slim chance the players will know what direction to take.

I mean when even Begin says, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Then you got a problem.

jnthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 08:50 AM
  #54
TheCH*
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,060
vCash: 500
Begin

I can't believe Gainey got rid of one of the only gritty guys on this team. Its clear Gainey wants to make the habs the softest team in the league. Sad..

TheCH* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 08:52 AM
  #55
jnthomas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 679
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to jnthomas
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Begin

I can't believe Gainey got rid of one of the only gritty guys on this team. Its clear Gainey wants to make the habs the softest team in the league. Sad..
Carbo got rid of him, not Gainey. By sitting Begin almost every game, it forced Gainey's hand since Steve didn't want his career to end like that.

jnthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 08:56 AM
  #56
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,409
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Kovalev, if he wants can be the most talented player in the league. It isn't up to the coach to entice him to want to play. He should want to play at his best every night because he wants to help the most storied franchise in hockey win.

But Kovalev, I am afraid, rarely looks motivated. Some weeks its shift by shift, some weeks its game by game.

In between are stellar performances, ones Im sure my generation of Habs fans will remember for a long time.

But he won't help this young team win a cup. His leadership skills are questionable at best. His effort level is up and down based on his own whims.

Its time for Gainey to let Kovalev walk and look for a new solution on the wing in Montreal.
Kovalev is talented, probably our most talented player up front, but to say he can be the top in the league makes no sense. He has very good 1 on 1 moves, but he doesn't handle the puck at top speed like the top players(Ovechkin Malkin Datsyuk etc), that's why he is more productive on the PP than an average skill player.

He is a bit quirky, he has his own style of game, and at times he overhandles the puck or waits too long for the perfect option. In general we are a better team with him in the lineup, when he is in there he gets attention from opposing teams freeing other guys.

He'll probably take a home town discout to stay, who will we sign that's better than him for 4.3-4.7 mil per year?

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:00 AM
  #57
Puckhead58*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,425
vCash: 500
Carbo got fired because he didn't know how to use his players properly. You don't put your 3rd and 4th line on the ice as much as you put your top 2 lines on the ice....thats just stupid coaching. You want your best players to play most of the game and use your bottom 2 lines sparingly.

When you have good hockey players like Kovy, Tanguay, Koivu, Pleks, Andrei, Higgins and players like that, you give them as much icetime as you can because these are the players that make things happen.

Carbo made a lot of very dumb coaching decisions and he got canned because of it. When you don't communicate with your players and you make stupid coaching decisions.....sooner or later something has to give. In this case, Carbo got HIMSELF fired. He didn't know how to use the talented players he had appropriately and he lost his job because of it. Its like Kovy said, Guy thought like a player too often when he should have been thinking like a coach. Putting the 3rd and 4th line on the ice late in the game when you need a tying goal makes no sense at all. Playing a sit-back defensive style when you need to tie the game up is dumb. Its these dumb coaching decisions that cost him his job and nothing else.

Puckhead58* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:00 AM
  #58
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,952
vCash: 500
Beating a dead horse

"Beating a dead horse" is an idiom that means a particular request or line of conversation is already foreclosed or otherwise resolved, and any attempt to continue it is futile.

wikipedia.org

Jigger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:01 AM
  #59
Whitesnake
Habs of steel
 
Whitesnake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Lorraine, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnthomas View Post
Carbo got rid of him, not Gainey. By sitting Begin almost every game, it forced Gainey's hand since Steve didn't want his career to end like that.
I will not believe that Gainey started to think and took the decision to fire Carbo just after Bégin was traded. Then if Gainey really wanted him to stay, he would've not trade Bégin and kept him since he knew there was a possibility that he'd be using him. Carbo didn't help, but Gainey could have done what he wanted to do with him. I mean, the day this franchise stop wanting to "accomodate" players and start thinking about themselves first, we will become a better team.

Whitesnake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:03 AM
  #60
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,409
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCH View Post
Begin

I can't believe Gainey got rid of one of the only gritty guys on this team. Its clear Gainey wants to make the habs the softest team in the league. Sad..
Begin caqn bring things to a team playing in spurts, he obviously was not happy with this arrangement. Stewart is younger, bigger and faster...and he makes the team grittier and tougher as a result.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:09 AM
  #61
The Gal Pals
Breaking Hab
 
The Gal Pals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,828
vCash: 1549
Personally, I know I yelled at the TV a few times this year and said "what the eff is Carbo doing? FML!"

The Gal Pals is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:09 AM
  #62
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 30,409
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckhead58 View Post
Carbo got fired because he didn't know how to use his players properly. You don't put your 3rd and 4th line on the ice as much as you put your top 2 lines on the ice....thats just stupid coaching. You want your best players to play most of the game and use your bottom 2 lines sparingly.

When you have good hockey players like Kovy, Tanguay, Koivu, Pleks, Andrei, Higgins and players like that, you give them as much icetime as you can because these are the players that make things happen.

Carbo made a lot of very dumb coaching decisions and he got canned because of it. When you don't communicate with your players and you make stupid coaching decisions.....sooner or later something has to give. In this case, Carbo got HIMSELF fired. He didn't know how to use the talented players he had appropriately and he lost his job because of it. Its like Kovy said, Guy thought like a player too often when he should have been thinking like a coach. Putting the 3rd and 4th line on the ice late in the game when you need a tying goal makes no sense at all. Playing a sit-back defensive style when you need to tie the game up is dumb. Its these dumb coaching decisions that cost him his job and nothing else.

Agree on pretty much everything you said there.

I didn't have a problem using 4 lines, but unless the game is a bloowout, your best players have to play more than those 4th liners.

Monctonscout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 09:43 AM
  #63
mabus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,228
vCash: 500
Bottom line;

When you're doing a goal and the faceoff is in the other team's end, you don't put out 4th liners. You don't spend an entire season constantly changing lines, the players need time to gel and build chemistry. You actually need to talk to players and explain why you're doing whatever it is you're doing, especially when you start benching veterans who are actually playing well.

Carbonneau didn't lose his job because of Kovalev or Koivu nor because of any other player. The bottom line is that Carbonneau was a fantastic defensive player, and is a great guy, but was a really bad coach and that's why he lost his job.

mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:04 AM
  #64
sampollock
Registered User
 
sampollock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: in my home
Posts: 7,004
vCash: 500
have to agree, changing lines, like every game, or more,

seemed crazy to me

nuts i figured

sampollock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:06 AM
  #65
m00ks
Registered User
 
m00ks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Bottom line;

When you're doing a goal and the faceoff is in the other team's end, you don't put out 4th liners. You don't spend an entire season constantly changing lines, the players need time to gel and build chemistry. You actually need to talk to players and explain why you're doing whatever it is you're doing, especially when you start benching veterans who are actually playing well.

Carbonneau didn't lose his job because of Kovalev or Koivu nor because of any other player. The bottom line is that Carbonneau was a fantastic defensive player, and is a great guy, but was a really bad coach and that's why he lost his job.
soooo you would have kept the ATAK line together for the whole year regardless when it was was barely producing?

The true bottom line was that his team and his lineup had to deal with constant injuries with people coming in and out. He had to look for offense wherever he could and couldn't afford to wait on players to produce for too long and risk dropping in the standings. When he found a line that worked, he kept it and when it went stale, which was often the case, he switched it up. The line changing were merited for the above reasons.

I think Carbo isn't given a fair shake around here. A lot of people are calling him a bad coach yet most of those same people were pissed Boudreau got the Jack Adams last season. He's not the greatest coach but he also wasn't the worse. He is a good coach in training and will have a lot of success behind the bench of another team.

m00ks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:18 AM
  #66
Hermamoud
Registered User
 
Hermamoud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Country: Vietnam
Posts: 2,100
vCash: 500
I'm just taking the game in Edmonton as an example.

I think we all remember that they went bowling as a team bonding activity instead of practice the day before the game. If I were in the shoes of the players, I think I'd be pretty pumped up for the game against Edmonton the next day, and I'd feel incredibly refreshed. Then, I'd see on the board in the locker room:

Pacioretty – Koivu – D’Agostini

Kovalev – Plekanec – Dandenault

Kostitsyn A – Higgins – Kostopoulos

Gorges – Lapierre – Laraque

I think that this is one of the examples of how Carbo's lines juggling has really gone out of hand. These lines probably had the effect of bursting the bubble around every player. And that night's result showed it.

Even if you're THAT desperate for finding a spark, I don't think any coach would put Gorges in front, since he hasn't played in front in years. (Reminds of of when Niinimaa played in front for a few games)

Hermamoud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:25 AM
  #67
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,324
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sampollock View Post
have to agree, changing lines, like every game, or more,

seemed crazy to me

nuts i figured
This was Kovy's main issue with Carbo...and just about every fan of the team's big issue also...Carbo's constant line juggling, and having the wrong guys on the ice, at the wrong time were his downfall with the players...

BLONG7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:38 AM
  #68
mabus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,228
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
soooo you would have kept the ATAK line together for the whole year regardless when it was was barely producing?
Not nessecarily no, but I wouldn't have kept changing it every period either. You make a reasoned thoughtful change and you give it a week or two. And you don't blow up >ALL FOUR< lines every single period either. As I said players need time to gel and develop some chemistry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
I think Carbo isn't given a fair shake around here. A lot of people are calling him a bad coach yet most of those same people were pissed Boudreau got the Jack Adams last season. He's not the greatest coach but he also wasn't the worse. He is a good coach in training and will have a lot of success behind the bench of another team.
I have to disagree with you here, I think he's just about one of the worst coaches i've ever seen.

mabus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:48 AM
  #69
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Lack of communication? These guys are freakin crybabies. They just had to work hard and play well and it would have never been a problem. Kovalev is the least professional hockey player i've ever seen.
How old are you..seriously..??..

The least professional hockey player??..wth are you talking about?

Because you think they didn't/don't work hard??..why?..because they're not winning?..You think they came into this season after finishing first thinking..''Bah, no need to train this year, it's going to be easy..and if we choke, well they'll fire Carbo''..

Getting the most out of your players, keeping them motivated and finding a system that fits them best are all part of the coach's job.


You can work hard all you want, if you don't do things correctly (not because you don't care, just because you don't know what's expected) and get no feed back, you're not going to improve and that's not the players's fault.

Work in any serious enterprise and you'll get some feed back right away if you do certain things badly, it's simple management.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:51 AM
  #70
MJN79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 254
vCash: 500
Only in Montreal do players say these things in the media about a fired coach. If Kovalev has a tough time following Carbo, imagine the opposite. There are days Kovalev looks like a star and others where he looks like a ghost. I remember games where Kovy did not even take a shot. He is on all the PP's, plays on the PK, whats hard to follow here, put the puck in the net and stop whinning.

MJN79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 10:53 AM
  #71
m00ks
Registered User
 
m00ks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,887
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Not nessecarily no, but I wouldn't have kept changing it every period either. You make a reasoned thoughtful change and you give it a week or two. And you don't blow up >ALL FOUR< lines every single period either. As I said players need time to gel and develop some chemistry.



I have to disagree with you here, I think he's just about one of the worst coaches i've ever seen.
I didn't like the line changing anymore than the next guy but there was always a reason behind it and in the end I could understand it. Could he have been more patient? Perhaps. but then again with prolonged injuries continuing to ravage the team time wasn't exactly on his side.

And I think it's a little extreme to call him one of the worst coaches out there. His accomplishments from last year should already say a lot of his capabilities behind a bench.

m00ks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 11:05 AM
  #72
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
soooo you would have kept the ATAK line together for the whole year regardless when it was was barely producing?

The true bottom line was that his team and his lineup had to deal with constant injuries with people coming in and out. He had to look for offense wherever he could and couldn't afford to wait on players to produce for too long and risk dropping in the standings. When he found a line that worked, he kept it and when it went stale, which was often the case, he switched it up. The line changing were merited for the above reasons.

I think Carbo isn't given a fair shake around here. A lot of people are calling him a bad coach yet most of those same people were pissed Boudreau got the Jack Adams last season. He's not the greatest coach but he also wasn't the worse. He is a good coach in training and will have a lot of success behind the bench of another team.
The ATAK line didn't work earlier this year, Plek was searching himself. Splitting that line up doesn't mean alternating every single line, almost every game.
It started with Tanguay/Koivu/Lats. That trio was working well, even Koivu said it. But once Higgins came back from his injury, Lats's PP Ice Time dropped, and 2Games after he was back Higgins took Lats's spot on 1st line even if he wasn't playing better than Gui. It started there.
Then with the injuries and constant line changes, nobody on this team was ever able to find its rhythm except Lang.
But that doesn't make it a valid reason why you start the game with certain lines and 10min in Carbo already shuffled them again.
After all this, you ask some consistency out of your players..

I disagree about the Jack Adams, I couldn't care less if he won it or not to be honest and I put very little importance in that trophy.
Also, give us an average PP last year instead of the best one and we'd probably be in the same position we're in today. The PP was run by Jarvis not Carbo.
I was still scratching my head last year with some of the decisions Carbo made, but in the end we used to win which is the only important thing. That doesn't mean he wasn't taking bad decisions.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 11:08 AM
  #73
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23,259
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
I didn't like the line changing anymore than the next guy but there was always a reason behind it and in the end I could understand it. Could he have been more patient? Perhaps. but then again with prolonged injuries continuing to ravage the team time wasn't exactly on his side.

And I think it's a little extreme to call him one of the worst coaches out there. His accomplishments from last year should already say a lot of his capabilities behind a bench.
He didn't start changing the lines because of injuries. It's his coaching technique. He did it last year and the year before too. He's always done it.

Kriss E is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 11:25 AM
  #74
LesCanadiens
Registered User
 
LesCanadiens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: The Okanagan Baby!
Posts: 2,822
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJN79 View Post
Only in Montreal do players say these things in the media about a fired coach. If Kovalev has a tough time following Carbo, imagine the opposite. There are days Kovalev looks like a star and others where he looks like a ghost. I remember games where Kovy did not even take a shot. He is on all the PP's, plays on the PK, whats hard to follow here, put the puck in the net and stop whinning.
I totally agree....Habs from the 70's didn't need a coach to tell them how to hit, pass and score. For the most part, everything Bowman said went in one ear and out the other....they laced up and got the job done.

This "woe is me" crap is pitiful.

LesCanadiens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2009, 11:32 AM
  #75
Team_Spirit
Tinordi-Subban
 
Team_Spirit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 20,453
vCash: 700
Saku and Kovy are doing a great job to make the media forget about the real issues. Boivin and Bob must be happy.

Team_Spirit is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.