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Old
03-18-2009, 05:47 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
LoL.

Yeah, you regularly see NHL Gms dealing people with 140 goals in 3 seasons (at the rate elite scorers get paid) for prospects.... All the time.

The stupidity of some people on here amazes me.
Don't you know? Ryan is an untouchable! Forget a trade involving Bobby for Crosby or Malkin. They're contracts are just too much for a team to take on these days. Poor Pittsburgh, having to pay for those players, guess they're stuck with 'em...

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03-18-2009, 08:13 PM
  #27
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Heatley's contract size is a hard thing to move. Not everyone wants to put that much assets in one player/position.

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03-19-2009, 05:43 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
LoL.

Yeah, you regularly see NHL Gms dealing people with 140 goals in 3 seasons (at the rate elite scorers get paid) for prospects.... All the time.

The stupidity of some people on here amazes me.
You rarely see near PPG rookie power forwards scoring at a 40 goal pace...traded...all the time

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03-19-2009, 05:44 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by nnkd View Post
Don't you know? Ryan is an untouchable! Forget a trade involving Bobby for Crosby or Malkin. They're contracts are just too much for a team to take on these days. Poor Pittsburgh, having to pay for those players, guess they're stuck with 'em...
Heatley is not Malkin or Crosby, try watching Bobby Ryan play before you trash us for saying we will NOT trade him

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03-19-2009, 11:15 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Graves View Post
Heatley is not Malkin or Crosby, try watching Bobby Ryan play before you trash us for saying we will NOT trade him
Your first statement is correct. However, I was just making an exaggerated joke as Ryan's very good but he's not untouchable (unless you and I have different definitions of untouchable). IMO, there's only a select few in the NHL that have the "untouchable" tag. Some are veteran leaders who did great things for their team over the years (e.g., The Selannes, Brodeurs, and Sakics) and others are the current elite (e.g., A.O. and Crosby; I hesitate to put Malkin here despite him being an elite player). As Ryan doesn't fulfill either criterion, he's not untouchable.

P.S. Interestingly enough, I've seen Ryan play before.

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03-19-2009, 11:27 AM
  #31
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Ottawa takes this and runs far, far away.

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03-19-2009, 12:03 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Agi View Post
Ottawa takes this and runs far, far away.
No. They don't. Heatley is a premier scorer, possibly the 2nd best winger in the game at the moment on pure scoring ability, definitely in the top 5.

And $7M is a bargain deal compared to the $9.5M some of the elite players are making. Anyone suggesting Ottawa makes this trade is clueless and doesn't understand hockey.

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03-19-2009, 12:20 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
No. They don't. Heatley is a premier scorer, possibly the 2nd best winger in the game at the moment on pure scoring ability, definitely in the top 5.

And $7M is a bargain deal compared to the $9.5M some of the elite players are making. Anyone suggesting Ottawa makes this trade is clueless and doesn't understand hockey.
Love how you just compared Heatley to Ovechkin as he is the only player making $9.5 Million.

I guess that is why the Capitals and Senators are neck and neck in the playoff picture...oh wait.

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03-19-2009, 12:52 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnkd View Post
Don't you know? Ryan is an untouchable! Forget a trade involving Bobby for Crosby or Malkin. They're contracts are just too much for a team to take on these days. Poor Pittsburgh, having to pay for those players, guess they're stuck with 'em...
There's something called a salary cap, ever heard of it? It's tough for a team to spontaneously add 8+ million in one player. My hat goes off to Pittsburgh for making it work for this long. Take a look at Anaheim's payroll and tell me how you would realistically expect to add a Crosby, Heatley, or Malkin? It's not happening. Having a guy on a rookie contract who is producing near a PPG and getting better every night is a gift. Ryan's trade value is sky high right now. By no means am I saying that Heatley is a slouch because anyone would love to have him. All I'm saying is that Ryan's trade value is higher than Heatley's for now.

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Old
03-19-2009, 12:59 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Agi View Post
Love how you just compared Heatley to Ovechkin as he is the only player making $9.5 Million.

I guess that is why the Capitals and Senators are neck and neck in the playoff picture...oh wait.
Yeah because, you know, Ovechkin is the only player of note on the capitals at the moment.

LoL.

And, Crosby makes pretty close to $9m. Plenty of players are in that 7-9M range. Hell, Thomas Vanek makes $7M a season.

Further, I actually credited Ovechkin as being the best winger in the game in my initial post; in the implied statement.

That said, if I had to choose between Ovechkin at $9.5M and Heatley at $7M, I'd choose Heatley.

Ovechkin has the capability to average 60ish goals and 110ish points. At $9,500,000 that translates to $158,000 a goal and $86,300 a point. The points number is a little high, but I don't think anyone would complain about having Ovechkin. (I think this season he's on pace for 57/100ish? Too lazy to check.)

That said, as a comparison, let's look at Dany Heatley.
Over the three years going into this year, he averaged 47 goals (two 50 goal seasons, and a 40 goal season). This has not been a banner year for him, admittedly. He's also been in the 95-100 point range every season. Conservatively let's estimate 45g/90pts.

$7,000,000 a season translates into $155,555 a goal and $77,777 a point.

So yes, I think it's fair to compare Ovechkin and Heatley, when the salaries are what they are, and there's a salary cap.

Not that I initially did so; but my point was only the people suggesting Ottawa makes this trade are foolish.


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Old
03-19-2009, 01:00 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by sammyp View Post
There's something called a salary cap, ever heard of it? It's tough for a team to spontaneously add 8+ million in one player. My hat goes off to Pittsburgh for making it work for this long. Take a look at Anaheim's payroll and tell me how you would realistically expect to add a Crosby, Heatley, or Malkin? It's not happening. Having a guy on a rookie contract who is producing near a PPG and getting better every night is a gift. Ryan's trade value is sky high right now. By no means am I saying that Heatley is a slouch because anyone would love to have him. All I'm saying is that Ryan's trade value is higher than Heatley's for now.
I remember that guy. He played for Anaheim a few years ago... He's a superstar now right? Leading the league in scoring, such great value... What was his name again......













....






....





Oh right, Dustin Penner.

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Old
03-19-2009, 01:05 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I remember that guy. He played for Anaheim a few years ago... He's a superstar now right? Leading the league in scoring, such great value... What was his name again......













....






....





Oh right, Dustin Penner.
The only person in the world that could feel being made fun of in this post is Kevin Lowe. I've never seen a Ducks fan say Penner would ever even be a borderline superstar.

Comparing Ryan to Penner is an instant technical K.O. in a hockey discussion.
As so often - ask your doctor if watching the game is right for you!

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Old
03-19-2009, 01:33 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyp View Post
There's something called a salary cap, ever heard of it? It's tough for a team to spontaneously add 8+ million in one player. My hat goes off to Pittsburgh for making it work for this long. Take a look at Anaheim's payroll and tell me how you would realistically expect to add a Crosby, Heatley, or Malkin? It's not happening. Having a guy on a rookie contract who is producing near a PPG and getting better every night is a gift. Ryan's trade value is sky high right now. By no means am I saying that Heatley is a slouch because anyone would love to have him. All I'm saying is that Ryan's trade value is higher than Heatley's for now.
Fun stuff, I have heard of the salary cap!

How could you add a big salary-big name player like one of aforementioned players? Well, it's very simple. You have two blueliners and a semi-back-up (you might disagree with the back-up part) goalie that make a lot of money. Solution: get rid of one/two of them. Neids is a UFA, is he going to come back? If so, you could always trade Pronger for a pretty penny. If Hiller is your guy in nets for the future (he's good... he should be!), Giguere's definitely tradeable. And what about Rob Neidermeyer? He must be near the end of his career, if he resigns, sign him at less than $2 mill? Look at all those possibilities! If I'm a betting man, I'm guessing one of the big three end up leaving or retiring during the offseason. When it comes down to it, the salary cap is really just simple mathematics and as I understand how to add and substract, I think it's fair to conclude that I understand the salary cap! Yay.

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Old
03-19-2009, 01:37 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnkd View Post
Fun stuff, I have heard of the salary cap!

How could you add a big salary-big name player like one of aforementioned players? Well, it's very simple. You have two blueliners and a semi-back-up (you might disagree with the back-up part) goalie that make a lot of money. Solution: get rid of one/two of them. Neids is a UFA, is he going to come back? If so, you could always trade Pronger for a pretty penny. If Hiller is your guy in nets for the future (he's good... he should be!), Giguere's definitely tradeable. And what about Rob Neidermeyer? He must be near the end of his career, if he resigns, sign him at less than $2 mill? Look at all those possibilities! If I'm a betting man, I'm guessing one of the big three end up leaving or retiring during the offseason. When it comes down to it, the salary cap is really just simple mathematics and as I understand how to add and substract, I think it's fair to conclude that I understand the salary cap! Yay.
You're making this way too easy. Giguere has a NTC, so he only would be tradeable if he was willing to waive it. The only bigger contract that may be off the books this summer is Niedermayer's who I think will return for another season. There are still many spots to fill in the lineup, a couple of players who deserve raises to resign and the fact that the Ducks will probably have to deal with an internal cap next season.
Adding a contract (!) like Heatley's would be close to impossible for the Ducks. He's a great player, but from a knowledgable point of view you can't argue Ryan with his contract is a lot more valuable to the Ducks than Heatley with his.

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Old
03-19-2009, 01:40 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vipers31 View Post
The only person in the world that could feel being made fun of in this post is Kevin Lowe. I've never seen a Ducks fan say Penner would ever even be a borderline superstar.

Comparing Ryan to Penner is an instant technical K.O. in a hockey discussion.
As so often - ask your doctor if watching the game is right for you!
Exactly. You can start with where they were drafted:

Ryan: 2nd overall (behind Crosby, no less).
Penner: umm, undrafted.

I can go on if you'd like?

Penner was 24 when he posted 45 points in 82 games whereas Ryan just hit the 45 point marker in just 52 games at age 21 (he actually just turned 22 on St. Patty's day). If you watched Penner play with Getzlaf and Perry it was pretty apparent that he was "mooching" off of their production with lots of second assists. Sure he was a good complementary type player who could put together dominating shifts along the boards, but Bobby Ryan has carried EVERY line he has been put on this year -- from George Parros and Ryan Carter to Getzlaf and Perry.

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Old
03-19-2009, 01:59 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnkd View Post
Fun stuff, I have heard of the salary cap!

How could you add a big salary-big name player like one of aforementioned players? Well, it's very simple. You have two blueliners and a semi-back-up (you might disagree with the back-up part) goalie that make a lot of money. Solution: get rid of one/two of them. Neids is a UFA, is he going to come back? If so, you could always trade Pronger for a pretty penny. If Hiller is your guy in nets for the future (he's good... he should be!), Giguere's definitely tradeable. And what about Rob Neidermeyer? He must be near the end of his career, if he resigns, sign him at less than $2 mill? Look at all those possibilities! If I'm a betting man, I'm guessing one of the big three end up leaving or retiring during the offseason. When it comes down to it, the salary cap is really just simple mathematics and as I understand how to add and substract, I think it's fair to conclude that I understand the salary cap! Yay.
And what is Anaheim's motivation for doing all of this exactly. Certainly the "upgrade" from Ryan to Heatley is worth all of this right?

Quote:
If Hiller is your guy in nets for the future (he's good... he should be!), Giguere's definitely tradeable.
Giguere's tradeable, really? He's making 6 million and he is having BY FAR the worst season of his career. I doubt there will be much of a market for him.

Quote:
And what about Rob Neidermeyer? He must be near the end of his career, if he resigns, sign him at less than $2 mill?
Oh, just perfect! With Rob Niedermayer leaving Anaheim saves 2M! That certainly makes up for the extra 7.5M being invested in Heatley, right? Oh, but then you suggest either letting Scott Niedermayer walk away or trading Pronger. Let's just see what kind of team that leaves the Ducks with:

Heatley (7.5) - Getzlaf (5.325M) - Perry (5.325M)
(________) - Ebbett (500K) - Selanne (2.625M)
(_________) - Nokelainen (850K) - (_________)
Brown (~550K) - Carter (625K) - Parros (875K)
*Miller (525K)

(_______) - Pronger (6.25M)
Whitney (4M) - Wisniewski (~2M)
Brookbank (500K) - Mikkelson (822K)
*Festerling (~600K)

Giguere (6M)
Hiller (1.3M)

Total=46.172M

So, good luck adding three top-9 forwards and a top-4 dman all while fitting under the salary cap. Yeah, you definitely understand the salary cap -- ha

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03-19-2009, 02:12 PM
  #42
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Please stop this nonsense...

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Old
03-19-2009, 04:18 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Pyke View Post
I remember that guy. He played for Anaheim a few years ago... He's a superstar now right? Leading the league in scoring, such great value... What was his name again......













....






....





Oh right, Dustin Penner.
One of the more idiotic comparisons I have ever seen on this board

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03-19-2009, 05:01 PM
  #44
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One of the more idiotic comparisons I have ever seen on this board
And boy, is that saying a lot.

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Old
03-19-2009, 05:29 PM
  #45
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And what is Anaheim's motivation for doing all of this exactly. Certainly the "upgrade" from Ryan to Heatley is worth all of this right?

Oh, my rationale behind my argument was not Anaheim's motivation but rather just player values and salary cap issues.

Giguere's tradeable, really? He's making 6 million and he is having BY FAR the worst season of his career. I doubt there will be much of a market for him.

Don't remember where the rumour came from but there were rumblings that Giguere to Toronto was a possibility... mind you, now that I think about it, that was prior to the Toskala injury report. I still think they'll be a team interested in a goalie with such an impressive playoff record.

Oh, just perfect! With Rob Niedermayer leaving Anaheim saves 2M! That certainly makes up for the extra 7.5M being invested in Heatley, right? Oh, but then you suggest either letting Scott Niedermayer walk away or trading Pronger. Let's just see what kind of team that leaves the Ducks with:

Hey! It's a start... plus! Todd Marchant. That's some more cash off the books.

Heatley (7.5) - Getzlaf (5.325M) - Perry (5.325M)
(________) - Ebbett (500K) - Selanne (2.625M)
(_________) - Nokelainen (850K) - (_________)
Brown (~550K) - Carter (625K) - Parros (875K)
*Miller (525K)

(_______) - Pronger (6.25M)
Whitney (4M) - Wisniewski (~2M)
Brookbank (500K) - Mikkelson (822K)
*Festerling (~600K)

Giguere (6M)
Hiller (1.3M)

Total=46.172M

So, good luck adding three top-9 forwards and a top-4 dman all while fitting under the salary cap. Yeah, you definitely understand the salary cap -- ha
For the most part, I won't lie, I don't know Anaheim's prospects that would potentially fill spots on the third line. As for the empty D spot, won't Beauchemin be healthy next season? He'll be deserving of a raise of course but should fit into your team's cap. Not sure if you think he can fit in #2 role but he's a possibility! As for that last spot on the forwards roster (again, I skipped the third line 'cause I don't want to pretend I know what Anaheim prospects are ready to make the jump), that's solvable via free agency (or we could throw you Comrie in the Heatley/Ryan trade! ... just kidding ).

Sorry, your post was really long so my responses are kind of all over the place.

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03-19-2009, 05:33 PM
  #46
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You're making this way too easy. Giguere has a NTC, so he only would be tradeable if he was willing to waive it. The only bigger contract that may be off the books this summer is Niedermayer's who I think will return for another season. There are still many spots to fill in the lineup, a couple of players who deserve raises to resign and the fact that the Ducks will probably have to deal with an internal cap next season.
Adding a contract (!) like Heatley's would be close to impossible for the Ducks. He's a great player, but from a knowledgable point of view you can't argue Ryan with his contract is a lot more valuable to the Ducks than Heatley with his.
See my reply to sammyp. For the most part, your posts were similar. You think Neidermeyer is seriously coming back for another season though? If so, what will the Ducks pay him? If so, he should take a Selanne-like deal, which is essentially an "I want to play hockey in Anaheim" deal where money is completely irrelevant.

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03-19-2009, 05:39 PM
  #47
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Meh. Contract's not horrible, but I can see your case...

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03-19-2009, 05:54 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by nnkd View Post
See my reply to sammyp. For the most part, your posts were similar. You think Neidermeyer is seriously coming back for another season though? If so, what will the Ducks pay him? If so, he should take a Selanne-like deal, which is essentially an "I want to play hockey in Anaheim" deal where money is completely irrelevant.
I do have the tendency to believe he will be back. His game is still up there and the Olympics should be a factor in him deciding to be back. I do think that if he came back, he would probably ask for a little less money, but not as low as Selanne. Money is not completely irrelevant, it's still a factor as it's about respect for each other. As an organisation you don't really want your captain and key contributor playing for peanuts. Of course, it's fantastic if one's willing to take a cut, but you still should want to pay him something to show his value to the organisation. I'd be thrilled if he stayed for $4.5 mio...
That would be another $2 mio of the books. You mentioned Beauchemin, who is a UFA at season's end. It seems as if he was going to test the market and looking at last summer's free agency it seems safe to say he'll get $4 mio. + somewhere and depending on the amount in the " + " I'm not too sure it makes sense, with Pronger, Whitney and Wiz around.
The proposal to fill the spots in the 3rd line with prospects / organisation depth is not too promising. I could see Brown on the 3rd line as he's been strong since coming here. Maybe Carter moving up, with Miller and Kontiola filling in on the fourth, but that's more than just a stretch. Actually, Christensen probably is going to be somewhere; if he fails as the project for a top6-winger along good players, that's a whole that needs to be addressed via free agency.
It's true some salary gets off the books, but some will get raises and some holes need to be filled. And we may not forget that the Ducks ownership had planned to have the Ducks sit under a self-imposed cap this season already which they stepped away from when it became obvious that this was not possible this year. It will be next year, so I wouldn't expect us to spend that close to the cap again.

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Old
03-19-2009, 07:10 PM
  #49
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Yeah because, you know, Ovechkin is the only player of note on the capitals at the moment.

LoL.

And, Crosby makes pretty close to $9m. Plenty of players are in that 7-9M range. Hell, Thomas Vanek makes $7M a season.

Further, I actually credited Ovechkin as being the best winger in the game in my initial post; in the implied statement.

That said, if I had to choose between Ovechkin at $9.5M and Heatley at $7M, I'd choose Heatley.


Ovechkin has the capability to average 60ish goals and 110ish points. At $9,500,000 that translates to $158,000 a goal and $86,300 a point. The points number is a little high, but I don't think anyone would complain about having Ovechkin. (I think this season he's on pace for 57/100ish? Too lazy to check.)

That said, as a comparison, let's look at Dany Heatley.
Over the three years going into this year, he averaged 47 goals (two 50 goal seasons, and a 40 goal season). This has not been a banner year for him, admittedly. He's also been in the 95-100 point range every season. Conservatively let's estimate 45g/90pts.

$7,000,000 a season translates into $155,555 a goal and $77,777 a point.

So yes, I think it's fair to compare Ovechkin and Heatley, when the salaries are what they are, and there's a salary cap.

Not that I initially did so; but my point was only the people suggesting Ottawa makes this trade are foolish.
So by this logic is Alex Burrows Better than both

You can't simply compare players by stats. You have to consider significantly more unmeasurable aspects. Ovechkin makes what he does because he puts fans in the seats. Yes so does Heatley, but not to nearly the same extent as Ovechkin. Building in other cities sell out because of Ovy, Heatley doesn't do that

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03-19-2009, 08:19 PM
  #50
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So by this logic is Alex Burrows Better than both

You can't simply compare players by stats. You have to consider significantly more unmeasurable aspects. Ovechkin makes what he does because he puts fans in the seats. Yes so does Heatley, but not to nearly the same extent as Ovechkin. Building in other cities sell out because of Ovy, Heatley doesn't do that
Sigh.

You can compare players by stats. That's exactly what salary arbitration does. Are there players who bring more than their stats? Sure. However, the first and primary basis upon which we evaluate salary is - STATS!

Secondly, I agree Ovechkin puts fans in the seats. However, for the HOME team, I don't think there's a real difference between Dany Heatley and Alexander Ovechkin. Is AO the better player? Yeah, no question. Yet, Heatley was the franchise player in ATL for a couple years and marketed as such. Ottawa almost always has sellouts. Great players on great teams tend to have slightly less of an impact than great players on weaker teams, from a purely pragmatic perspective that there's more reasons to go see the team player. Although Washington (today) is a better team than Ottawa, it wasn't the case three years ago; it's a relatively recent switch.

Finally, I don't think how well a player puts fans into OPPOSING buildings is really at issue in who you build your team with. In fact that seems to be a bit of a drawback. Further, to be fair, Ovechkin does have some of the league's marketing arm behind him hyping him up. As I said, I think he's a great player; but he is still human too.

Btw, I'm pretty sure Burrows production is less than $80k a point, but if he is in that ballpark than power to the Canucks.

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