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Mathias Brunet article on Timmins

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Old
03-30-2009, 01:46 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
What's the point of the 60 players in the league?

Belarus has how many players in the league? Did it stop the Canadiens from drafting the Kostitsyns? or LA from drafting Kopitar because he's from Slovenia?
The point was that people can't complain about Timmins if 21% of the players he drafts are Quebecers, but that Quebec doesn't have as many representatives as it used to have, so it is normal that we can't develop as many Quebecers as some might want.

We did develop Lapierre and Latendresse in the last few years, and we do have some others to come.

Also, people should check the numbers for American born players that play in the NHL, compare that to the number of Americans in the team and the number of Americans the Habs draft. People will realize that the ratio of Quebec players that the Habs draft is higher regarding the total talent pool percentage, versus the % of Americans they draft.

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03-30-2009, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
so that's why he drafted a smallish Kristo instead of a bigger Paquette last year?
No ; that's why he drafted guys like A.Kost instead of Carter, Price instead of Kopitar, Kristo instead of Grachev, etc. He put to much on raw talent and hope that kids with develop other dimensions by the years. I'm just saying that it's about time to guess on some other kind of players during the draft.

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03-30-2009, 01:48 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Can anyone send me a PM when they can tell me why it even matters where a player was born or what language he speaks

Thanks
I'd like this PM too

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03-30-2009, 01:49 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
He and I debated this before. His statistical selection is both flawed and self serving, but he continues to quote it left and right.

He averaged out the offensive production of the various CHL leagues, as I understand it. But only used guys who actually made the NHL.

Of course, the Q will be higher since it rarely produces role players or defenseman. The only Q guys who make the NHL are scorers and goalies. So, yes, Q players score more on average. But it's totally flawed.
Yeah...I figured as much, thanks. By my quick count, there are only 40* skaters in the NHL from the QMJHL region...and the Habs have 6 of them. This doesn't include prospects though.

*some were drafted by the Habs

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03-30-2009, 01:52 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
The point was that people can't complain about Timmins if 21% of the players he drafts are Quebecers, but that Quebec doesn't have as many representatives as it used to have, so it is normal that we can't develop as many Quebecers as some might want.

We did develop Lapierre and Latendresse in the last few years, and we do have some others to come.

Also, people should check the numbers for American born players that play in the NHL, compare that to the number of Americans in the team and the number of Americans the Habs draft. People will realize that the ratio of Quebec players that the Habs draft is higher regarding the total talent pool percentage, versus the % of Americans they draft.
fine but case in point, Giroux and Perron were available for the Canadiens. I'm talking about league development and long term philosophies and whatnot, those are real players the Canadiens let go for whatever reason.

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03-30-2009, 01:52 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
"Bref, il faut arrêter de voir des complots partout et faire confiance aux recruteurs, qui ne cherchent qu'à obtenir les meilleurs joueurs disponibles pour leur organisation. "

also, in another quote speaking of Fischer "Timmins a déjà expliqué dans le cas de ce repêchage de 2006 qu'il avait voulu renflouer la banque d'espoirs en défense plutôt que de choisir le meilleur joueur disponible"

In a sense it's fine to trump your prospect list when it goes in favor of a long-term project on defense but it's not ok to trump your list for Perron who played at the mem cup
Would you have been pleased if Timmins had drafted one player from the Q with the two first round picks he had that year?

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03-30-2009, 01:53 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Or: he know the american leagues (especially the HS ones) are underscouted compared to the Q, and he wants to benefit from this.

Unless you're saying there's something intrinsically wrong with drafting americans?
To me, as of now, clearly the Q is underscouted based on the reputation and moreso now, based on the new rules where even french scouts are saying how it will affect a lot of Quebecers now.

As far as finding something wrong about Americans, don't know where you would get this. I do find that there's a difference between finding something wrong, and preferably seeing us to diversity a little bit more where the players are coming from. Seems to me that some places are scouted more than others. But then only results are what is important right? So we'll see about that sooner than later.

But you can't say that I find something wrong about drafting americans when for this year, I have amongst my favorites guys like Moore, Budish, Kreider, Morin, Brown and a few others. Having something wrong against them would mean not having them on my list...

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03-30-2009, 01:56 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
I said since 2002 so Crosby is obviously not the only player selected in the 1st 2 rounds since 2002
Its fact that your sample size of Quebec players very low.

If Quebec had 6 out of the top 60 picked each year and the WHL had 15, 4 out of the Q making the NHL gives them a 67% success rate. The WHL needs 10 to get the same success rate. Can you honestly not see how thats flawed?

Should we also factor in your points reasoning in the fact the Q has much more trouble developing defenseman. So again you have the Q's top offensive guys making the NHL which may only be 2-3 a year in the first two rounds putting up points compared to leagues that have more defenseman than the Q has offensive forwards being drafted.

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03-30-2009, 01:57 PM
  #34
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Now as near as I can tell, the only top 6 forwards from the Q region that the Habs missed in the past 9 years are Bergeron, Giroux, Perron and Pominville.

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03-30-2009, 02:01 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viau View Post
No ; that's why he drafted guys like A.Kost instead of Carter, Price instead of Kopitar, Kristo instead of Grachev, etc. He put to much on raw talent and hope that kids with develop other dimensions by the years. I'm just saying that it's about time to guess on some other kind of players during the draft.
He could've drafted Hugh Jessiman instead of A. Kost, Benoit Pouliot instead of Price, and, I dunno, Eric Mestery instead of Kristo (although it's wayyy to early to say anything about that draft).

God, you draft revisitionists make me want to puke out my skull. Some people have no clue just how good Timmins is and they make it blatantly obvious in topics like these.

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03-30-2009, 02:07 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucius View Post
He and I debated this before. His statistical selection is both flawed and self serving, but he continues to quote it left and right.

He averaged out the offensive production of the various CHL leagues, as I understand it. But only used guys who actually made the NHL.

Of course, the Q will be higher since it rarely produces role players or defenseman. The only Q guys who make the NHL are scorers and goalies. So, yes, Q players score more on average. But it's totally flawed.
Glad to see i am not the only one who sees how completely flawed this "statistical analysis" is.

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03-30-2009, 02:08 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
God, you draft revisitionists make me want to puke out my skull. Some people have no clue just how good Timmins is and they make it blatantly obvious in topics like these.
Damn it's impossible to argues Timmins decisions on hfboards? I get erased, blocked, or whatever. That guy isn't God ; I'm tired of people defending him at all cost. I know hockey for long enough to have my own opinion about him. Get over it if you like or love him, but I can still question some of his decisions!

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Old
03-30-2009, 02:15 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markov79fan View Post
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hoc...rs-timmins.php


pretty good read (sorry too lazy to translate )
Too much is being put into this french thing....grab a french-canadian star and then draft whomever is best player

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03-30-2009, 02:16 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Can anyone send me a PM when they can tell me why it even matters where a player was born or what language he speaks

Thanks
I think that we have to respect, 'cause at a certain extent I also agree with this, that you have a greater "feeling of belonging" for a team when you have an important number of guys from our own city, province etc....

Also feel that some players might give a greater effort for a team they've grown up watching and liking. For a guy who's dream was always to play for the Habs, you do think that once there, they'll do everything they can to make that team succeed. That it goes beyond the financial and business part of it to go a little deeper in the emotion part of it. I do not disregard the fact that other non-franco guys could have the same feeling, like PK Subban who most definately, the day where this kid will be a Hab, nobody will care if he speaks french or not, but chances are, like Sheldon Souray said when he signed with the Oilers, going home brings a special feeling.

Then, there is also the nationalist feeling that it's us against the world. That as Quebecers, we're always happy to see some Quebecers succeed but would prefer if it could be with us.

Honestly, I could totally see why people don't agree, Habs fans from anywhere in the world, even french-Quebecers from Quebec might not agree as well and honestly, you have a point. I just wish the same people that strongly believes it doesn't matter, would understand how people think it may matter as well. And I would also like to believe that those people would also understand that wanting to have more french Quebecers in a lineup doesn't mean that we would want ALL the lineup to be french or that it automatically comes a hatred towards other nations as well. I do believe that in an ideal world, you could have a great and better mix.

In the end though, no matter how you see all of this, only results are important. We win, we don't talk about it. Sure we had tons of francos in late 90's and that's one of the worst periods of the Habs existence. But then, I really hope that people understand that it's not about wanting any francos at all cost, no matter the talent they have.

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03-30-2009, 02:16 PM
  #40
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Since 1990, here are the French Canadians (from Quebec) that we've drafted:

2008: No French Canadian
2007: Olivier Fortier (3rd round)
2006: Mathieu Carle (2nd round)
2005: Guillaume Latendresse (2nd round), Mathieu Aubin (5th round) and Philippe Paquet (7th round)
2004: Loic Lacasse (6th round) and Alexandre Dulac-Lemelin (9th round)
2003: Maxim Lapierre (2nd round) and Jimmy Bonneau (8th round)
2002: Michael Lambert (4th round) and Jonathan Ferland (7th round)
2001: No French Canadian
2000: Christian Larrivee (4th round) and Jonathan Gauthier (9th round)
1999: Marc-Andre Thinel (5th round) and Jerome Marois (9th round)
1998: Eric Chouinard (1st round), Mike Ribeiro (2nd round) and François Beauchemin (3rd round)
1997: No French Canadian
1996: Mathieu Garon (2nd round), Etienne Drapeau (4th round), Daneil Archambault (5th round) and Michel Tremblay (9th round)
1995: Jonathan Delisle (4th round), Stephane Robidas (7th round) and Eric Houde (9th round)
1994: Jose Theodore (2nd round), Martin Belanger (3rd round) and Jimmy Drolet (5th round)
1993: Sebastien Bordeleau (3rd round) and J-F Houle (4th round)
1992: Louis Bernard (4th round) and Christian Proulx (7th round)
1991: Yves Sarault (3rd round) and Sylvain Lapointe (4th round)
1990: Charles Poulin (3rd round), Rober Guillet (3rd round) and Gilbert Dionne (4th round)


Hindsight being 20-20, more alarming is to see who we passed on over the years, in many cases for players that never made the NHL:

Karl Dykhuis, Martin Brodeur, Felix Potvin, Gino Odjick, Yanic Perreault, Joel Bouchard, Ian Laperriere, Eric Daze, Patrick Lalime, Mathieu Dandenault, Andre Roy, Serge Aubin, Jean-Sebastien Giguere, Martin Biron, Denis Gauthier, Marc Denis, Georges Laraque, Jean-Sebastien Aubin, Yannick Tremblay, Daniel Briere, Steve Begin, Eric Belanger, Antoine Vermette, Michel Ouellet, Matthew Lombardi, Pascal Leclaire, Jason Pominville, Stephane Veilleux, Maxime Talbot, Steve Bernier, Marc-Antoine Pouliot, Patrice Bergeron, Alexandre Picard, Bruno Gervais, Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Kristopher Letang, Claude Giroux... and that's not even taking into consideration other francophones from Ottawa and/or the maritimes.

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03-30-2009, 02:26 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
It's just that for most blind canadiens fans criticism = bashing while it's not the case. In my opinion it's impossible to have a hit at every position, and I've shown in other threads that Quebec players have better rate of success and have more points in the NHL than any other leagues. For example, when players like Perron is still available and proved he can perform at a high level like the Mem. cup, don't pass him up if you get him at a reasonable position. Therefore, if you concentrate on a territory and get the best players for that league you'll get the hits more often than if you spread yourself all over the place.

Of course if there's no interesting player at that position don't reach for one. But to me it makes more sense to draft a proven player like perron instead of taking risks on high school players.
And you are right. You might find two scientific articles from Lavoie
(ph.D. economics in Ottawa) in 1987 and in 199X. About the first one, here's a reply from another economist

Do Hockey Teams Discriminate Against French Canadians?: A Comment on 'Discrimination and Performance Differentials in the National Hockey League' MICHAEL KRASHINSKY* Department of Economics Scarborough Campus, University of Toronto Introduction In a recent paper in this journal, Lavoie, Grenier and Coulombe (1987) argue that French Canadian hockey defensemen and forwards perform better than their English Canadian and American counterparts, al- though the performance of English and French Canadian goalies cannot be distin- guished. The authors suggest that this can be explained by discrimination against Francophones which occurs at the point of entry into the league. The different treat- ment of positions reflects different levels of uncertainty about player quality. Despite some minor quibbles, I find the data persuasive. It does indeed appear that French Canadian players are better than their English teammates and that this is due to some preference towards hiring An- glophones.

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03-30-2009, 02:31 PM
  #42
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ok so I did a quick check for the first 2 rounds since 2004

whl has 10 forwards in the league have an average of 22 points per player, ohl 14 players with an average of 26, Q has 9 players with an average 57, HS have 8 players with an average of 23, NCAA has 6 players with an average of 64, Europe has 15 players 59

whl d-men have 3 d-men in the league for an average of 33 points per player, ohl has 5 d-men for 4 points per player, Q has 2 with an average of 21 per player, HS have 5 for 14 points per player, NCAA has none, europe has 3 with an average of 43

WHL has 6 forwards with more than 20 points, OHL has 5,the Q has 6 players above 20 points, HS have 3, NCAA has 5, europe has 7

WHL has 0 forward over 100 points, WHL has 1, Q has 1, HS none, NCAA has 1, europe has 3

so I computed a few stats so before saying that I'm all biased with my stats, at least I search for something and bring SOME stats, while all you bring is stereotypes and Me Thinks that's what happens

Quote:
Originally Posted by kent_carlson View Post
And you are right. You might find two scientific articles from Lavoie
(ph.D. economics in Ottawa) in 1987 and in 199X. About the first one, here's a reply from another economist

Do Hockey Teams Discriminate Against French Canadians?: A Comment on 'Discrimination and Performance Differentials in the National Hockey League' MICHAEL KRASHINSKY* Department of Economics Scarborough Campus, University of Toronto Introduction In a recent paper in this journal, Lavoie, Grenier and Coulombe (1987) argue that French Canadian hockey defensemen and forwards perform better than their English Canadian and American counterparts, al- though the performance of English and French Canadian goalies cannot be distin- guished. The authors suggest that this can be explained by discrimination against Francophones which occurs at the point of entry into the league. The different treat- ment of positions reflects different levels of uncertainty about player quality. Despite some minor quibbles, I find the data persuasive. It does indeed appear that French Canadian players are better than their English teammates and that this is due to some preference towards hiring An- glophones.
Thank you, but I'm sure their stats are biased


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03-30-2009, 02:39 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kent_carlson View Post
And you are right. You might find two scientific articles from Lavoie
(ph.D. economics in Ottawa) in 1987 and in 199X. About the first one, here's a reply from another economist

Do Hockey Teams Discriminate Against French Canadians?: A Comment on 'Discrimination and Performance Differentials in the National Hockey League' MICHAEL KRASHINSKY* Department of Economics Scarborough Campus, University of Toronto Introduction In a recent paper in this journal, Lavoie, Grenier and Coulombe (1987) argue that French Canadian hockey defensemen and forwards perform better than their English Canadian and American counterparts, al- though the performance of English and French Canadian goalies cannot be distin- guished. The authors suggest that this can be explained by discrimination against Francophones which occurs at the point of entry into the league. The different treat- ment of positions reflects different levels of uncertainty about player quality. Despite some minor quibbles, I find the data persuasive. It does indeed appear that French Canadian players are better than their English teammates and that this is due to some preference towards hiring An- glophones.
Is this article from 1987?

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03-30-2009, 02:45 PM
  #44
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I said this and I will say it again: the problem is not with Timmins-the guy is just going for who he thinks are the best. The problem is with the organisational philosophy. They should be more agressive in getting talented french players. And this should be enforced by Bob. Even if say...Timmins loves Max Pac, the GM stand his ground and say "look we're getting Perron". Timmins should just continue doing what he does.

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03-30-2009, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jnthomas View Post
Is this article from 1987?
No simply a commentary by another economist from one university in Ontario (to show that this should not be a french-english debate). I think that another good article by Lavoie was in 2001 in the American Sociologist (peer reviewd), using 10 years of data.

FSU, you were nice not to use the 1998 Draft, the Q had a spectacular year. 5 of the 6 best players were from the Q.

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03-30-2009, 02:54 PM
  #46
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I think that we have to respect, 'cause at a certain extent I also agree with this, that you have a greater "feeling of belonging" for a team when you have an important number of guys from our own city, province etc....

Also feel that some players might give a greater effort for a team they've grown up watching and liking. For a guy who's dream was always to play for the Habs, you do think that once there, they'll do everything they can to make that team succeed. That it goes beyond the financial and business part of it to go a little deeper in the emotion part of it. I do not disregard the fact that other non-franco guys could have the same feeling, like PK Subban who most definately, the day where this kid will be a Hab, nobody will care if he speaks french or not, but chances are, like Sheldon Souray said when he signed with the Oilers, going home brings a special feeling.

Then, there is also the nationalist feeling that it's us against the world. That as Quebecers, we're always happy to see some Quebecers succeed but would prefer if it could be with us.

Honestly, I could totally see why people don't agree, Habs fans from anywhere in the world, even french-Quebecers from Quebec might not agree as well and honestly, you have a point. I just wish the same people that strongly believes it doesn't matter, would understand how people think it may matter as well. And I would also like to believe that those people would also understand that wanting to have more french Quebecers in a lineup doesn't mean that we would want ALL the lineup to be french or that it automatically comes a hatred towards other nations as well. I do believe that in an ideal world, you could have a great and better mix.

In the end though, no matter how you see all of this, only results are important. We win, we don't talk about it. Sure we had tons of francos in late 90's and that's one of the worst periods of the Habs existence. But then, I really hope that people understand that it's not about wanting any francos at all cost, no matter the talent they have.
I totally get AND respect what you're saying...the thing is, in this day in age, none of that matters. The game of hockey is a global sport, where a kid in Port-au-Prince Haiti can unconditionally love the Habs as much if not more than a kid who lives in Blainville (I exagerrated on purpose, but truth be told, my 18yr old cousin has Habs flags hanging out the window of his home in Haiti as well as stickers on his car). This 'nationalist feeling' that its 'us against the world' I think only exists in the minds of people stuck in a different generation or who are completely oblivious to what is REALLY going on (no offense to anyone, just my opinion).

This is professional sports were talking about, the NHL specifically, it's not a place to make a political statement of union. The Montreal Canadiens, as far as I know, don't belong to french speaking Quebecers, as much as they seem to think it does. The very fact that it has been confirmed that some former GM's (Andre Savard, Boudrias as mentionned in the article) have drafted players from the Q just to appease a % of it's fanbase upsets me. I'm as much of a Habs fan as any kid living in Quebec...and I want to see the best team on the ice regardless of nationality/language. I think REAL Habs fans want to see that first and foremost...the one's who think sucess must = more french speaking players, also need to step into the year 2009.

Also, you mentionned that a kid who grew up in Quebec would put up a better effort than a kid who wasn't or that it's the idea. That's not true, because i've watched several Quebec born players (one who currently plays for the team) come here and show the same level of committment and passion as anyother non-Quebec born player who played for the Habs. Eric Chouinard was a Habs fan who was born and bread in Quebec and was drafted by the Habs in the 1st round, did he 'bleed' more for the Habs than Andrei Markov has who was drafted in the same draft 5 rounds later? Andrei Markov I suspect was not a Habs fan and was born and bread half way across the world, it hasn't stopped him from being a guy who gives his all on the ice in every game.

Even Quebec born players have turned their backs on the Habs because it simply doesn't matter to them. So why does it matter to so many???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I said this and I will say it again: the problem is not with Timmins-the guy is just going for who he thinks are the best. The problem is with the organisational philosophy. They should be more agressive in getting talented french players. And this should be enforced by Bob. Even if say...Timmins loves Max Pac, the GM stand his ground and say "look we're getting Perron". Timmins should just continue doing what he does.
No...they should be more agressive in getting talented players, period.

Unless being able to speak french magically gets a player more goals or hits, IT DOESN'T FRICKEN MATTER!


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 03-31-2009 at 08:48 AM.
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03-30-2009, 02:58 PM
  #47
j c petit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I said this and I will say it again: the problem is not with Timmins-the guy is just going for who he thinks are the best. The problem is with the organisational philosophy. They should be more agressive in getting talented french players. And this should be enforced by Bob. Even if say...Timmins loves Max Pac, the GM stand his ground and say "look we're getting Perron". Timmins should just continue doing what he does.
What if the GM had stood his ground and said "look we're getting Esposito"?

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03-30-2009, 03:00 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Viau View Post
Damn it's impossible to argues Timmins decisions on hfboards? I get erased, blocked, or whatever. That guy isn't God ; I'm tired of people defending him at all cost. I know hockey for long enough to have my own opinion about him. Get over it if you like or love him, but I can still question some of his decisions!
It's not so much as it being criticism, but rather the base on which the criticism lies.

Other than Grachev last year, I can't say I wasn't OK with the decisions on draft day.

The point is, people take a look at the draft after (this is important, since they don't care enough to follow the prospects before or after the draft until they get close to NHL ready) and start whining when at the time, it was a perfectly reasonable decision.

That makes me hate a lot of people so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
No...they should be more agressive in getting talented players, period.

Unless being able to speak french magically gets a player more goals or hits, IT DOESN'T FRICKEN MATTER!
Look, the Habs are a different organisation with a different fanbase. If you want the Habs to be like any other team, then fine, but just watch it lose it's mysticism.

I'd like the Habs to target some Q players and go more agressively after those (by trading up or down), but not pass up better players just for the sake of it.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 03-31-2009 at 08:49 AM.
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03-30-2009, 03:06 PM
  #49
Pascal
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It's funny how every single language-based criticism of the Habs is so easily shot down.

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03-30-2009, 03:10 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
so I computed a few stats so before saying that I'm all biased with my stats, at least I search for something and bring SOME stats, while all you bring is stereotypes and Me Thinks that's what happens
I am all for good statistical analysis, but again, your methodology is off.

If you want to do this properly, there is a simple cure:

-Divide by position. Analyze forwards, defenseman and goalies separately.
-Include all players drafted, not just those who make the NHL. You're arguing we draft French players, there is no way to know who will pan out at the time of the draft.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest focusing solely on scorers. Take the top 25 scorers in the QMJHL, WHL and OHL in three separate years. Then figure out the total NHL production all three at the NHL level and divide by 25. This will include guys who made it and guys who never made it and we'll get a clearer sense of which league truly translates better in the NHL.

You argue we should be drafting more Quebec born players, so by that logic the numbers that actually make it matter a lot. This is why you need to factor in guys who were drafted and never made it or guys that never got drafted.

Another way to look at this is, if the Q truly does have better talent than the NHL gives it credit for, how many undrafted Q players make it to the NHL later on? I assume any alaysis of undrafted players would greatly advantage the NCAA, FYI, which is actually an argument for more American drafting, not less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
Look, the Habs are a different organisation with a different fanbase. If you want the Habs to be like any other team, then fine, but just watch it lose it's mysticism.

I'd like the Habs to target some Q players and go more agressively after those (by trading up or down), but not pass up better players just for the sake of it.
As an English-speaking Canadian, I agree with this second part. I am all for the Habs targeting and focusing in on good French speaking players. There is nothing wrong with a team wanting to have some local talent, so long as they don't let it blind them to talent in general.

Frankly though, the last truly can't miss French Canadian prospect was Lecavalier and sometimes getting that top pick isn't possible. I don't think Perron qualifies as that level of prospect.

And honestly, with very rare exceptions, I do not believe its generally worth it to pry that top pick out of people. The price is too high for an unproven talent. For as nice as it would be to have Vinny since he was drafted, imagine if we'd sold the farm for Daigle


Last edited by Lucius: 03-30-2009 at 03:15 PM.
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