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Knuble may not be a Flyer next year

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Old
03-29-2009, 11:31 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
Lupul and all the players mentioned had contracts come up and that set the market price.
I agree that the Lupul contract is "market value" when you take into account points as they compare to the other players you mentioned. That said, it doesn't mean the Flyers have to be the ones to pay that market value for Lupul, and I am of the opinion that they should not.

Its fine to look at players with similar numbers and similar ages and declare market value. But when you watch guys like Lupul on the ice, as compared to others you mentioned, there is a BIG difference in the "fire" they play with on every shift.

So while its fine and technically true to look at Lupul's production and declare it "market value", when you take into account his inconsistencies and lazy play, you are going to have a hard time convincing others on this board that the Flyers should be paying that "market value".

When exactly does inconsistent and lazy play affect market value in a negative fashion? Dustin Penner technically makes market value as well, but I bet the Oilers are as unhappy paying that value as most Flyers fans are about paying Lupul the same kind of coin.

I understand market value, and I also understand how the case can be made that Lupul will be paid correctly, as it pertains to that value. But after watching Lupul for 2 seasons in Philly, I can confidently tell you without any hesitation that he is not worth that amount of money, regardless of what the market says.

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03-30-2009, 09:16 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TehBBA View Post
Honestly, I'd rather see Carle gone. He joins the rush way too much. he seems to forget that he is NOT a forward.
LOL I had serious cap / injury issues in NHL 09 and moved Carle to my third line lol. He didnt suck there lol.

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Old
03-30-2009, 10:25 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I urge you to do the same.

Have you seen what Lupul is making next year? Knuble's status shouldn't affect Lupul's one bit. Lupul's contract is so pathetic for what he brings to this team. No heart. No work ethic. Just hot and cold streaks of offensive ability that Giroux can replace in a heartbeat. Oh yeah, offensive ability that was non-existant this year until he was put on a line with Carter.

Knuble's real value, besides still being one of the best powerplay guys in the league (in front of the net) is his veteran savvy on a team filled with young party guys. He's a great voice in the room, he has a great work ethic that everyone should look up to, he's great with the media, and he still plays on the PK and does a pretty damn good job of it. These are all things you need to consider. I haven't seen any change in his speed since he got there and he's one of the few guys willing to do the dirty work in the trenches.

Contrary to what you said, we don't have enough vets. This team is still frightfully young. We have Timonen, Briere, and Gagne to a lesser extent. None of those guys can replace what Knuble brings. He's the oldest guy on the team, but still manages to be the 5th leading scorer. Yeah that's right. He's outscoring the $4.25M man. He's been nothing but consistant for this team.

Will he start to decline? Absolutely. But I'd rather have a declining Knuble making a couple million and providing a ton of intangibles, than pay Joffrey Lupul a ******** of money to show up when he feels like it.

If we let Knuble walk - fine. That doesn't mean it's ok to pay Lupul such an insane amount of money when he'll be lucky to crack 50 points this year. If he's on the team next season - we're ****ed financially.
I was about to reply to the Lupul vs. Knuble argument and then I saw your post and you took the words right out of my mouth.

I think the point people are missing is that its not that Lupul sucks or is above market value. Its the fact we're in cap trouble and at 4.25 Lupul can be replaced(giroux, jvr) while knuble at 2.5 or so will be tougher to replace. If theres no cap I would gladly keep lupul over knuble after this year just because of the ages of the 2 players but since there is a cap I cant think of any reason you wouldnt do your best to move lupul in the offseason.

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03-30-2009, 02:54 PM
  #79
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Its not like we would waive Lupul for nothing. We would get something in return. Maybe trade Him/Carle or Jones in a package for Harding and Clutterbuck.

Sbisa replaces Carle/Jones

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03-30-2009, 03:11 PM
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I heard no one moaning when lupul scored two goals to save us from losing to the isles the other night. Also putting in the perfect pass to set up the other goal. Lupul is here to stay. Deal with it

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03-30-2009, 03:15 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I heard no one moaning when lupul scored two goals to save us from losing to the isles the other night. Also putting in the perfect pass to set up the other goal. Lupul is here to stay. Deal with it
Lazy ass Lupul plays every other game (if we are lucky). You cant agree with the contract he is going to get next year.

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03-30-2009, 03:38 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I heard no one moaning when lupul scored two goals to save us from losing to the isles the other night. Also putting in the perfect pass to set up the other goal. Lupul is here to stay. Deal with it
Of course I didn't complain about him scoring, but I still had to get out of my seat to yell "****ing skate Lupul" a couple times during that game. My problem with Lupul is not skill, but consistency of effort.

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03-30-2009, 03:40 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I heard no one moaning when lupul scored two goals to save us from losing to the isles the other night. Also putting in the perfect pass to set up the other goal. Lupul is here to stay. Deal with it
Who you shedding to keep him? Going into next year, we have significant cap problems...and that's before you factor in signing someone like JVR.

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03-30-2009, 04:08 PM
  #84
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Knuble retires as a Flyer.

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03-30-2009, 04:14 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
I heard no one moaning when lupul scored two goals to save us from losing to the isles the other night. Also putting in the perfect pass to set up the other goal. Lupul is here to stay. Deal with it
Nevermind the fact that those 2 goals are Lupul's only points in 6 games.

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03-30-2009, 04:25 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Brophy View Post
Knuble retires as a Flyer.
Eh, I wouldn't be so sure.

I think it's entirely possible that Lupul and Knuble could be gone this offseason. Hopefully they win the Cup this year, so nobody is butt-hurt about what happens this offseason. It'll be interesting regardless.

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03-30-2009, 04:35 PM
  #87
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Speaking of Lupul's 2 goals...his first one was when he was out there with 4 liners I believe to which I said to my friend...

"I figured out how to get more production out of Lupul. When he plays with good players he tries to be a team player and it just doesn't work for some reason. When he plays with scrubs, he just decides he's better than them and goes end to end. The solution is....play him with scrubs."

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Old
03-30-2009, 05:17 PM
  #88
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I'm not reading through this whole thing, but does it seem kind of like with all this talk involving Sbisa with the Flyers full time next season the Flyers will move Carle or Jones?

They become kinda excess pieces right? I may be wrong, but whatever. Read the recent article on Flyers.nhl.com about Sbisa. He thinks he's going to be here full time starting next season. If we move Jones or Carle we can keep Lupul AND re-sign Knuble short term.

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Old
03-30-2009, 09:21 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I agree that the Lupul contract is "market value" when you take into account points as they compare to the other players you mentioned. That said, it doesn't mean the Flyers have to be the ones to pay that market value for Lupul, and I am of the opinion that they should not.

Its fine to look at players with similar numbers and similar ages and declare market value. But when you watch guys like Lupul on the ice, as compared to others you mentioned, there is a BIG difference in the "fire" they play with on every shift.

So while its fine and technically true to look at Lupul's production and declare it "market value", when you take into account his inconsistencies and lazy play, you are going to have a hard time convincing others on this board that the Flyers should be paying that "market value".

When exactly does inconsistent and lazy play affect market value in a negative fashion? Dustin Penner technically makes market value as well, but I bet the Oilers are as unhappy paying that value as most Flyers fans are about paying Lupul the same kind of coin.

I understand market value, and I also understand how the case can be made that Lupul will be paid correctly, as it pertains to that value. But after watching Lupul for 2 seasons in Philly, I can confidently tell you without any hesitation that he is not worth that amount of money, regardless of what the market says.
So, jordan staal plays with the same fire every night, malone, hartnell, etc??? then why don't they have 50 goals? maybe it's not the fire but that they don't have the ability to play at that level every night against the competition...maybe there are nights when the competition just out plays them...there are players that can reach the same level of play every night regardless of competition and their names are AO, malkin, vinny cav.
for the first three months of last season when hartnell could only score EN goals everyone talked about how he was overpaid and lupul was a great pickup...at the end of the season hartnell ended up w/ 20+ goals and everyone loved him and didn't mind his contract.
i understand the logic of moving lupul because we are so stacked at forward that he is a luxury but that doesn't mean he was a bad signing or that should just be moved because we need to sign a 35+ y/o forward looking for an increase who also doesn't play with the same fire every night.
lupul and hartnell should get some credit for playing on one of the best lines in NHL most of the season and for posting the goals they have w/o a playmaking center.

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03-30-2009, 10:17 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Its not like we would waive Lupul for nothing. We would get something in return.
Woooord. I think people forget this.

When people look him over in the off-season, they'll see a 25g/25a 25-year-old with good size.

Over the summer, reputation blemishes sort of come out in the wash. Someone is going to hand us a bag of goods and step on the Lupul landmine.

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03-30-2009, 10:34 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Scarfo View Post
Woooord. I think people forget this.

When people look him over in the off-season, they'll see a 25g/25a 25-year-old with good size.

Over the summer, reputation blemishes sort of come out in the wash. Someone is going to hand us a bag of goods and step on the Lupul landmine.
Exactly. Just like we saw this skilled forward with good hands, speed and scoring ability. Hes a better player now than he was then but its no shock hes been moved around so much in such a short career. Someone will see a good player when looking at the numbers and fork over some goods for Lupul in the offseason. I mean really, it cant be THAT hard to convince someone to take a player who has shown he can be a potential 60+ point player and play top 6 minutes at a young age. Only we will know he has less heart than the tinman.

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03-30-2009, 10:53 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
So, jordan staal plays with the same fire every night, malone, hartnell, etc??? then why don't they have 50 goals? maybe it's not the fire but that they don't have the ability to play at that level every night against the competition...maybe there are nights when the competition just out plays them...there are players that can reach the same level of play every night regardless of competition and their names are AO, malkin, vinny cav.
I fail to see your point. I don't care if Lupul outscores all of those guys you just mentioned. He is not consistent, nor does he bring any intangibles to the ice. I don't care what the market value is, there is no way you are gonna convince me he is worth the same amount as Staal, Malone or Hartnell (who all bring much more than scoring to the ice on a more consistent basis than Lupul). My guess is that you won't be able to convince anyone who understands there's more to hockey than points and goals that Lupul is worth as much either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
for the first three months of last season when hartnell could only score EN goals everyone talked about how he was overpaid and lupul was a great pickup...at the end of the season hartnell ended up w/ 20+ goals and everyone loved him and didn't mind his contract.
Who is everyone? Hopefully you aren't referring to me, because to me Hartnell has always been worth his contract. Yes, he got off to a slow start numbers-wise last season, but the intangibles and gritty play have always been there. The same can certainly NOT be said about Lupul. Its ridiculous to even be having a discussion that they are in the same ballpark worth-wise, as it pertains to what they bring to the ice. The best GM's in this league understand their is a difference between market values, and actual value as it pertains to importance to their hockey team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
i understand the logic of moving lupul because we are so stacked at forward that he is a luxury but that doesn't mean he was a bad signing or that should just be moved because we need to sign a 35+ y/o forward looking for an increase who also doesn't play with the same fire every night.
That 35 yr old forward you refer to is superior in almost every facet of the game, and shows alot more consistency and fire than Lupul. Just because someone is younger with more upside doesn't make them a more important or valuable player. You can't just look at it as choosing an older player over a younger player. You are really choosing a more valuable player, at a better cap hit, while unloading an inconsistent player with no intangibles for what is likely a decent return of assets (draft picks).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
lupul and hartnell should get some credit for playing on one of the best lines in NHL most of the season and for posting the goals they have w/o a playmaking center.
No, Hartnell should get credit for the way he plays. Lupul will get proper credit when he learns to play with the same level of consistency and desire as Hartnell.

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Old
03-30-2009, 10:56 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Exactly. Just like we saw this skilled forward with good hands, speed and scoring ability. Hes a better player now than he was then but its no shock hes been moved around so much in such a short career. Someone will see a good player when looking at the numbers and fork over some goods for Lupul in the offseason. I mean really, it cant be THAT hard to convince someone to take a player who has shown he can be a potential 60+ point player and play top 6 minutes at a young age. Only we will know he has less heart than the tinman.
I hope GMs don't read HF...


By the way, I didn't see it mentioned, but Knuble was nominated for an Atlantic Division sportsmanship award: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=415952

It would be rad if when Knuble retired, there was The Mike Knuble Award given annually to the player with the most goals that had nothing to do with a hockey stick.

The trophy would be a big, golden skate.

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03-30-2009, 11:25 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I fail to see your point. I don't care if Lupul outscores all of those guys you just mentioned. He is not consistent, nor does he bring any intangibles to the ice. I don't care what the market value is, there is no way you are gonna convince me he is worth the same amount as Staal, Malone or Hartnell (who all bring much more than scoring to the ice on a more consistent basis than Lupul). My guess is that you won't be able to convince anyone who understands there's more to hockey than points and goals that Lupul is worth as much either.


Who is everyone? Hopefully you aren't referring to me, because to me Hartnell has always been worth his contract. Yes, he got off to a slow start numbers-wise last season, but the intangibles and gritty play have always been there. The same can certainly NOT be said about Lupul. Its ridiculous to even be having a discussion that they are in the same ballpark worth-wise, as it pertains to what they bring to the ice. The best GM's in this league understand their is a difference between market values, and actual value as it pertains to importance to their hockey team.


That 35 yr old forward you refer to is superior in almost every facet of the game, and shows alot more consistency and fire than Lupul. Just because someone is younger with more upside doesn't make them a more important or valuable player. You can't just look at it as choosing an older player over a younger player. You are really choosing a more valuable player, at a better cap hit, while unloading an inconsistent player with no intangibles for what is likely a decent return of assets (draft picks).


No, Hartnell should get credit for the way he plays. Lupul will get proper credit when he learns to play with the same level of consistency and desire as Hartnell.
lupul played like **** the first month or so of the season but since then has played on one of the better lines in the NHL, he will end up w/ 25 goals or more most likely and can play on both special teams...he isn't an untouchable obviously, he is a streaky player but he isn't this a lazy, albatross around the flyers neck...people make like he is friggin' pavel brendl. he is a luxury due to our forward depth but there are other contracts i would explore moving before his, like paying carle or jones to be third pairing dman which they will likely be next season.
and if i am going to pay more then $2MM for knuble i would look at guys like moen or clowe first.

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03-30-2009, 11:26 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
lupul played like **** the first month or so of the season but since then has played on one of the better lines in the NHL, he will end up w/ 25 goals or more most likely and can play on both special teams...he isn't an untouchable obviously, he is a streaky player but he isn't this a lazy, albatross around the flyers neck...people make like he is friggin' pavel brendl. he is a luxury due to our forward depth but there are other contracts i would explore moving before his, like paying carle or jones to be third pairing dman which they will likely be next season.
and if i am going to pay more then $2MM for knuble i would look at guys like moen or clowe first.
Lupul doesn't play the PK. He's one of the last options for it. You keep mentioning that he does but it isn't true at all.

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03-30-2009, 11:42 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel Banker View Post
lupul played like **** the first month or so of the season but since then has played on one of the better lines in the NHL, he will end up w/ 25 goals or more most likely and can play on both special teams...he isn't an untouchable obviously, he is a streaky player but he isn't this a lazy, albatross around the flyers neck...people make like he is friggin' pavel brendl. he is a luxury due to our forward depth but there are other contracts i would explore moving before his, like paying carle or jones to be third pairing dman which they will likely be next season.
and if i am going to pay more then $2MM for knuble i would look at guys like moen or clowe first.
Unlike Carle and Jones, the Flyers would actually get something decent in return for Lupul. Thats the point, its not that he sucks, its just that we need to move some money off the cap and moving lupul would do just that AND get us something in return(goalie prospect?) while knuble wouldnt since hes a FA. I would much rather have knuble resigned, lupul moved for an NHL ready goalie prospect and 4.25 off the cap than Lupul on the team, knuble gone for nothing and 2.75 off the cap.

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03-31-2009, 12:40 AM
  #97
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I would take Knuble and his "Knuble'd" any day of the week over the one dimentional Joffrey Lupul.
It would be a mistake to let Knuble walk away because we have an albotross of a contract in Lupul. I dont care what anyone says Lupul's contract is terrible. Never should have given him that contract. period.

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03-31-2009, 12:50 AM
  #98
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When did Knuble stop being the board's whipping boy?

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03-31-2009, 12:55 AM
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When did Knuble stop being the board's whipping boy?
What was the date Lupul signed that contract?

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03-31-2009, 12:58 AM
  #100
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What was the date Lupul signed that contract?
on or around July 21,2008

http://cbs3.com/sports/Joffrey.Lupul....2.776150.html

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