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Mathias Brunet article on Timmins

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Old
03-30-2009, 05:29 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
But how can you know when the talent of two players are equal? You always like someone better than the other. For exemple, maybe Perron was close from Pacioretty on the Habs list, but one was a cocky player, and the other is a hard worker with good attitude. One can't be succesfull in a physical game and the other is made for it. There are always a few aspects that will make you take a player over the other...
I didn't say that talent had to be "equal", but similar. When it's close, they owe it to the fans to pick the local players. I'm certainly against picking French Canadians at any price, but from the draft history that I've posted this morning, it seems like we've "missed" several French Canadian players by picking guys that didn't even make it to the big leagues.

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
That's incorrect...French Canadians are a part of the Habs market, they do not represent their market as a whole.
They are the biggest part of their market, want it or not. The team is based in Montreal, in Quebec, a province with a vast majority of francophones. They get most of their tickets sales and sponsorhips, including their biggest TV contract from French sources and that's their main target.

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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
Attitude, style of play (how it will translate), physical attributes, work ethic, intangibles are all factors that should be considered in evluating a prospect.
And so is birth place. Proof? How many Russians have been drafted in recent years due to the lack of agreement in place with the IIHF and Russia?


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 03-31-2009 at 09:14 AM.
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03-30-2009, 05:31 PM
  #102
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Just pick the best players !!! thats all that matters!

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03-30-2009, 05:32 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Like you say, though, that's 20-20 hindsight drafting... and that makes it pretty pointless.

You can always note players a team "could" or "should" have drafted, regardless of language, but never mention the umpteen worse choices that could have been taken, such as the legions of French Canadian players that the Habs passed over and never made the NHL. Talent evaluation is a very inexact science. And for many years the Habs were quite terrible at it. Would it have been better if the Habs had picked local boys... but the ones that didn't make the NHL?

Then there's other considerations. As an example: someone could always say "oh my God we passed on MARTIN BRODEUR!" without context, but that context is very important: the Habs' goalie at the time was Patrick Roy, who already had a Conn Smythe at the time and was a better goaltender than Brodeur throughout his career, and so the Brodeur pick wouldn't have been particularly appropriate even if one could have told ahead of time he was going to become a very good goalie. (Besides, Martin Brodeur wouldn't be anywhere near the greatest-goalie-ever discussion if he'd been drafted by the Habs, but that's neither here nor there.)

Then there's the time they passed over a local to pick a local -- such as picking Gilbert Dionne over Gino Odjick.

I can make a terrific list of players that any given team has passed over at the draft, and conclude that all their scouting staffs are terrible. They're not -- it's just very difficult. It was not obvious at all at the time of the pick that the guys they picked were not superior players to the ones they didn't -- locals or not.

I can make a similar list for any team and use it to show that they badly discriminate against French Canadians and it's hurting them... but that's not the case at all, either.

When they picked Eric Chouinard over Simon Gagne, was that good?

You mentioned Marc-Edouard Vlasic, but should they have given up Carey Price for him?

Just making a list of locals the Habs might have picked is pretty meaningless. I don't think the amount of focus being put on locals is too low at all, and I don't think drafting after the fact is very productive.

Now, if you want to express concern about the success rate of Montreal first-round picks in the 90s, that is an horror story...
Awesome post

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03-30-2009, 05:34 PM
  #104
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And so is birth place. Proof? How many Russians have been drafted in recent years due to the lack of agreement in place with the IIHF and Russia?
I count that in attitude, not birth place.

Filatov and Grachev proved it means nothing. Being willing to learn the language also would be factored in attitude.

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03-30-2009, 05:35 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
if it's not based on raw talent nor production what is it based on? I love players with great attitude like Chichura, but I'd rather have players who'll be on my team.

Btw, I'm all for Pacioretty and hope the best and I know I can't win since Perron is in St Louis to stay and we can't remake history, so it's worth what it's worth.
And raw talent and production is good for everyone, even in high school...so McDo and Pacs were probably both BPA for the Habs...

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03-30-2009, 05:41 PM
  #106
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They are the biggest part of their market, want it or not. The team is based in Montreal, in Quebec, a province with a vast majority of francophones. They get most of their tickets sales and sponsorhips, including their biggest TV contract from French sources and that's their main target.
So the logic here is because their market speaks french, they have to make it a priority to draft francophones?

The other 29 NHL teams play in English speaking markets, do they have to make it a priority to darft english speaking players? Or do the Boston Bruins make it a priority to draft players of Irish descent because they have a large Irish community?

It makes absolutely no sense in a hockey environment...this is not a political venue. The Montreal Canadiens do not represent the province of Quebec, they represent the National Hockey League, some may not like that statement, but it's the truth. The Montreal Canadiens do not belong to the people of Quebec, i'm sorry, i'm not trying to be disrespectful but its just what I believe

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03-30-2009, 05:43 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by 417
So the logic here is because their market speaks french, they have to make it a priority to draft francophones?
The logic is that because of their market, they owe it to the team to draft local products at similar talent, yes.

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03-30-2009, 05:45 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by FSU Seminoles View Post
if it's not based on raw talent nor production what is it based on? I love players with great attitude like Chichura, but I'd rather have players who'll be on my team.

Btw, I'm all for Pacioretty and hope the best and I know I can't win since Perron is in St Louis to stay and we can't remake history, so it's worth what it's worth.
Your arguments are going to fall on deaf ears.
A) Pacioretty was a great pick and he fills a need for our team more than Perron ever will.
B) Giroux may or may not be a better pick than Fischer but Patrik Berglund was the better pick than both and filled an organizational need more than either of those players.

So why are we talking about picking players from the Q? We got Pacioretty who's great and we missed Patrik Berglund and he doesn't play for the Q. Why can't people not give ONE **** about WHERE they are being drafted. Understand that we're going to miss picks, we're going to hit on some picks and in the end Timmins hits more than he misses.

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03-30-2009, 05:49 PM
  #109
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I don't understand. Some people criticize the Canadiens for having too many of the same players in their system(small, talented, soft). Now that they manage to draft a future gritty power forward like Max Pacioretty, they complain that we should have drafted Perron instead, who is just as small as the rest of the players who are being criticized.

Timmins said so himself in an article (I forgot where though), the Canadiens already had too many finesse talented players, they didn't need another one like Perron if they could draft a player who could add a completely other dimension.

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03-30-2009, 05:51 PM
  #110
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I think that people need to shift the focus from Pacioretty and Perron and look at the big picture. We've missed on many, many French Canadians by picking players that haven't even made it to the NHL.

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Since 1990, here are the French Canadians (from Quebec) that we've drafted:

2008: No French Canadian
2007: Olivier Fortier (3rd round)
2006: Mathieu Carle (2nd round)
2005: Guillaume Latendresse (2nd round), Mathieu Aubin (5th round) and Philippe Paquet (7th round)
2004: Loic Lacasse (6th round) and Alexandre Dulac-Lemelin (9th round)
2003: Maxim Lapierre (2nd round) and Jimmy Bonneau (8th round)
2002: Michael Lambert (4th round) and Jonathan Ferland (7th round)
2001: No French Canadian
2000: Christian Larrivee (4th round) and Jonathan Gauthier (9th round)
1999: Marc-Andre Thinel (5th round) and Jerome Marois (9th round)
1998: Eric Chouinard (1st round), Mike Ribeiro (2nd round) and François Beauchemin (3rd round)
1997: No French Canadian
1996: Mathieu Garon (2nd round), Etienne Drapeau (4th round), Daneil Archambault (5th round) and Michel Tremblay (9th round)
1995: Jonathan Delisle (4th round), Stephane Robidas (7th round) and Eric Houde (9th round)
1994: Jose Theodore (2nd round), Martin Belanger (3rd round) and Jimmy Drolet (5th round)
1993: Sebastien Bordeleau (3rd round) and J-F Houle (4th round)
1992: Louis Bernard (4th round) and Christian Proulx (7th round)
1991: Yves Sarault (3rd round) and Sylvain Lapointe (4th round)
1990: Charles Poulin (3rd round), Rober Guillet (3rd round) and Gilbert Dionne (4th round)


Hindsight being 20-20, more alarming is to see who we passed on over the years, in many cases for players that never made the NHL:

Karl Dykhuis, Martin Brodeur, Felix Potvin, Gino Odjick, Yanic Perreault, Joel Bouchard, Ian Laperriere, Eric Daze, Patrick Lalime, Mathieu Dandenault, Andre Roy, Serge Aubin, Jean-Sebastien Giguere, Martin Biron, Denis Gauthier, Marc Denis, Georges Laraque, Jean-Sebastien Aubin, Yannick Tremblay, Daniel Briere, Steve Begin, Eric Belanger, Antoine Vermette, Michel Ouellet, Matthew Lombardi, Pascal Leclaire, Jason Pominville, Stephane Veilleux, Maxime Talbot, Steve Bernier, Marc-Antoine Pouliot, Patrice Bergeron, Alexandre Picard, Bruno Gervais, Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Kristopher Letang, Claude Giroux... and that's not even taking into consideration other francophones from Ottawa and/or the maritimes.

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03-30-2009, 05:56 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I think that people need to shift the focus from Pacioretty and Perron and look at the big picture. We've missed on many, many French Canadians by picking players that haven't even made it to the NHL.
We also picked many French Canadian players who never made it.

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03-30-2009, 05:56 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
The logic is that because of their market, they owe it to the team to draft local products at similar talent, yes.
There are 29 other teams scouting and drafting the same players, so matter how much they like local players or want to draft them, the odds they will get these players is still very low. You can trade up in the draft but you are risking more assets so it better be worth it and usually any players beyond the first handful in any draft year have question marks. These are usually 17 year old kids they are trying to eventually project in the NHL.

My only point is that just because they may not have drafted any local players in a draft year, doesn't mean they did not have some high on their draft list. The odds will always be against them getting the players they like best unless they have a top pick.

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03-30-2009, 05:57 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I think that people need to shift the focus from Pacioretty and Perron and look at the big picture. We've missed on many, many French Canadians by picking players that haven't even made it to the NHL.
Yeah well, we missed on many many players from elsewhere the same way.

And we've had hits where teams have failed.

Your point is really meh.

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03-30-2009, 05:58 PM
  #114
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The logic is that because of their market, they owe it to the team to draft local products at similar talent, yes.
Fair enough...but personally, i'm sorry, no one will ever be able to explain to me (and it make sense) that it matters what language a player speaks.

Maybe it's because i'm franco-ontarien??? Maybe if I was born and bread in Quebec, i'd think differently, that argument I can buy, but still. I can't see a scenario in which I give a **** about what language a player speaks. Not today in the year 2009.

If we're talking about the Prime-Minister of Canada, that's a different story, but the Montreal Canadiens are an NHL franchise, they don't belong to the Province of Quebec and I also don't buy that some kid in St-Leonard has more say in what the Habs do than I.

The Habs have had great players, both french and english and several languages in between. The history of this great franchise is litterred with the accomplishments and sacrifices of players who spoke both french and/or english. I also suspect that if you scanned the seats at the Bell centre on a game night, you could find people who speak several languages.

My opinion is not that the Habs shouldn't cater to their french speaking fans...my opinion is that it shouldn't matter at all. The real fans of this team just want to see a winning and competitive team and it's up to the people in charge of this team to ensure that happens by any means possible, not any linguistic means possible.

As long as the question of language is in the equation for the Habs, they will always be playing on an uneven playing field and it will always make winning the ultimate goal, that much more difficult

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03-30-2009, 05:59 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Chili View Post
There are 29 other teams scouting and drafting the same players, so matter how much they like local players or want to draft them, the odds they will get these players is still very low. You can trade up in the draft but you are risking more assets so it better be worth it and usually any players beyond the first handful in any draft year have question marks. These are usually 17 year old kids they are trying to eventually project in the NHL.

My only point is that just because they may not have drafted any local players in a draft year, doesn't mean they did not have some high on their draft list. The odds will always be against them getting the players they like best unless they have a top pick.
For one thing, players aren't eligible for the draft until they turn 18. Now I would love for the NHL to raise that age to 19, but the age of the draft is a whole other topic.

I do understand what you're saying about the other teams but it's not as much of a priority for them as it should be to us and for that reason, WE must spend more time and money scouting and interviewing our own.

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03-30-2009, 06:04 PM
  #116
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For one thing, players aren't eligible for the draft until they turn 18. Now I would love for the NHL to raise that age to 19, but the age of the draft is a whole other topic.

I do understand what you're saying about the other teams but it's not as much of a priority for them as it should be to us and for that reason, WE must spend more time and money scouting and interviewing our own.
What does this mean? What is this WE?

This is NOT political forum, we all the have same allegance to the Habs. This team does not represent a country, state, province, military, etc. They represent the NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE.

When you say WE, are you excluding me because i'm not from Quebec?

Come on man!

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03-30-2009, 06:08 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by MTLHabsAK46 View Post
Your point is really meh.
If my point is meh, why is it such a big issue in Quebec with sponsors, media and local fans (see RDS talkbacks)?

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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Fair enough...but personally, i'm sorry, no one will ever be able to explain to me (and it make sense) that it matters what language a player speaks.

Maybe it's because i'm franco-ontarien??? Maybe if I was born and bread in Quebec, i'd think differently, that argument I can buy, but still. I can't see a scenario in which I give a **** about what language a player speaks. Not today in the year 2009.

If we're talking about the Prime-Minister of Canada, that's a different story, but the Montreal Canadiens are an NHL franchise, they don't belong to the Province of Quebec and I also don't buy that some kid in St-Leonard has more say in what the Habs do than I.

The Habs have had great players, both french and english and several languages in between. The history of this great franchise is litterred with the accomplishments and sacrifices of players who spoke both french and/or english. I also suspect that if you scanned the seats at the Bell centre on a game night, you could find people who speak several languages.

My opinion is not that the Habs shouldn't cater to their french speaking fans...my opinion is that it shouldn't matter at all. The real fans of this team just want to see a winning and competitive team and it's up to the people in charge of this team to ensure that happens by any means possible, not any linguistic means possible.

As long as the question of language is in the equation for the Habs, they will always be playing on an uneven playing field and it will always make winning the ultimate goal, that much more difficult
I understand what you're saying. I moved to BC 17 years ago and work in an English environment, although I kept my French. But it's not keeping me from understanding the stand point of fans out there and who the team caters in their physical location. I know that there are most likely more English speaking fans than there are French ones, but not in Quebec, where the team plays. And that's where most of the sponsorships, TV and radio broadcasts and tickets sales take place. We just can't lose that focus because we're in a different geographical position.

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What does this mean? What is this WE?

This is NOT political forum, we all the have same allegance to the Habs. This team does not represent a country, state, province, military, etc. They represent the NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE.

When you say WE, are you excluding me because i'm not from Quebec?

Come on man!
Sorry, I think you misunderstood. WE as in the Habs.

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03-30-2009, 06:10 PM
  #118
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If my point is meh, why is it such a big issue in Quebec with sponsors, media and local fans (see RDS talkbacks)?


I understand what you're saying. I moved to BC 17 years ago and work in an English environment, although I kept my French. But it's not keeping me from understanding the stand point of fans out there and who the team caters in their physical location. I know that there are most likely more English speaking fans than there are French ones, but not in Quebec, where the team plays. And that's where most of the sponsorships, TV and radio broadcasts and tickets sales take place. We just can't lose that focus because we're in a different geographical position.


Sorry, I think you misunderstood. WE as in the Habs
.
lol! My fault...this topic gets me all worked up

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03-30-2009, 06:14 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
If my point is meh, why is it such a big issue in Quebec with sponsors, media and local fans (see RDS talkbacks)?

I'm all for drafting more Q players.

However, you're not bringing up the right point with that argument. It's just plain wrong to point that out while it could be said about other players.

For example, in 2005, we drafted Mathieu Aubin in the 5th round. Nobody is complaining, but that was a brutal pick if you want to look the players we passed up for him (though some of the better ones are with us).

Darren Helm 2 or 3 picks after, Kyle Cumiskey, Derek Joslin, Brett Sutter, Matt D'Agostini, Sergeï Kostitsyn, Anton Stralman...

Then again, you could do the same exercise just about every draft we missed out on a good Q prospect.

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03-30-2009, 06:14 PM
  #120
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For one thing, players aren't eligible for the draft until they turn 18. Now I would love for the NHL to raise that age to 19, but the age of the draft is a whole other topic.

I do understand what you're saying about the other teams but it's not as much of a priority for them as it should be to us and for that reason, WE must spend more time and money scouting and interviewing our own.
They're mostly 17 when they are being scouted for the upcoming draft, they are actually being scouted well before that really. And a number are 17 when they are drafted (they only have to turn 18 by Sept 15 of their draft year).

I agree with making sure they do their homework in their own backyard but I don't know that they aren't already doing that. We don't know by the draft picks they make, we would only know by seeing their actual draft list.

If you ever have the opportunity to attend a draft, I recommend it strongly. I have been at draft where teams get very frustrated when one the tables beside them picks the player they wanted one or two spots in front of them!

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03-30-2009, 06:16 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
Martin Brodeur, Felix Potvin, Yanic Perreault, Ian Laperriere, Eric Daze, Patrick Lalime, Martin Biron, Georges Laraque, Daniel Briere, Steve Begin, Eric Belanger, Antoine Vermette, Michel Ouellet, Matthew Lombardi, Pascal Leclaire, Jason Pominville, Stephane Veilleux, Maxime Talbot, Steve Bernier, Marc-Antoine Pouliot, Patrice Bergeron, Alexandre Picard, Bruno Gervais, Marc-Edouard Vlasic, Kristopher Letang, Claude Giroux... and that's not even taking into consideration other francophones from Ottawa and/or the maritimes.

HOLY **** I CAN'T READ A WHOLE POST!!!

Seriously, even the other names that I've removed, many of them were drafted AFTER we drafted players who didn't even make the NHL.
By itself, this is completely useless statistically. You need to compare this to the other teams draft performance if you want to actually answer the question.

Data is not the plurial of anecdote

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03-30-2009, 06:17 PM
  #122
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lol! My fault...this topic gets me all worked up
Hey no worries. I really enjoy exchanging on some hot topics with you. It's always filled with good knowledge and remains respectful. I wish more debates stayed that way. A difference in opinion doesn't make the others who think differently bad people, I strongly believe in that.

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They're mostly 17 when they are being scouted for the upcoming draft, they are actually being scouted well before that really. And a number are 17 when they are drafted (they only have to turn 18 by Sept 15 of their draft year).

I agree with making sure they do their homework in their own backyard but I don't know that they aren't already doing that. We don't know by the draft picks they make, we would only know by seeing their actual draft list.

If you ever have the opportunity to attend a draft, I recommend it strongly. I have been at draft where teams get very frustrated when one the tables beside them picks the player they wanted one or two spots in front of them!
I understand and I think that we basically agree for the most part. What this media circus has done though is that it's shed some light and awareness on our scouting staff and I wouldn't be surprised to see more being drafted in the next couple of seasons or others acquired by trade, as Pierre Boivin strongly hinted a few days ago.


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03-30-2009, 06:47 PM
  #123
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I think one of the thing about Q players is that it can't be that expensive to have a lot more scouts in your backyard than in Russia. The same can be said about some US teams or the Leafs, etc.

I mean, they can see the Q teams a bunch of times in Montréal, Shawi, Drummond and so on. Although it would help if there were more teams near Montréal, such as Laval, Trois-Rivières, Ste-Hyacinthe, Sherbrooke, etc.

And as far as the language goes, ultimately, I don't care that much about players from here, but the fact is that I'd rather have players that always wanted to play for the Habs and I think it's probably easy to guess where those come from. But then again, guys like Komi are another good example (his father being a huge habs fan) and Subban.

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03-30-2009, 07:04 PM
  #124
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I think one of the thing about Q players is that it can't be that expensive to have a lot more scouts in your backyard than in Russia. The same can be said about some US teams or the Leafs, etc.
They have one scout in Russia. It just happen that he's the best they have.

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03-30-2009, 07:04 PM
  #125
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,700
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I liked the article.. It's nice to see French Canadians support Timmins..

I still am not sure Timmins always makes the right decisions.. I think his team did make mistakes with A.Kostitsyn, Chipchura and Fischer, but it's too early to tell. Drafting Russians who prefer playing in Russia has also hurt the Habs but I'm sure that's hard to predict.

But at least it was made clear that he wasn't snubbing French Canadians..

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