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Old
04-03-2009, 11:18 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
What I mean is when people say "Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo and Giroux". That's utter BS.

Yeah, there's a point to be made that we needed cap space for an injury call-up. However (and I've said this before), I would've rather sent Giroux down for two games if Kimmo has the flu and keep Upshall for a playoff run. What's the big deal in that? Are we at the point where Giroux is so essential to our success that we can't send him down for a few days?

We're 7-7 since the trade deadline and have been fortunate to win some of those games. I don't think we've looked like the same team as before the deadline.
This cant be stressed enough. Especially the second part. This team has been so lethargic lately. I mean that last game made me wanna vomit. Powe was the only guy with a jump in his step.

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04-03-2009, 11:20 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
Correlation does not equal causation. If losing their 9th best forward really made that much of a difference to this team they have much bigger problems than the Upshall trade.
Team chemistry is a funny thing. You can't ignore it as a factor. It's not particularly encouraging that they'd start to play like **** because Upshall was traded, but they did look like their dog died in that Calgary game and have failed to produce many stellar efforts since.

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04-03-2009, 11:24 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Team chemistry is a funny thing. You can't ignore it as a factor. It's not particularly encouraging that they'd start to play like **** because Upshall was traded, but they did look like their dog died in that Calgary game and have failed to produce many stellar efforts since.
I'm seeing the same thing, and I forgive them the first game. But if they are in this continued lethargic slump simply because their friend got traded, I'd be very disappointed in this team's leadership.

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04-03-2009, 11:27 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
I'm seeing the same thing, and I forgive them the first game. But if they are in this continued lethargic slump simply because their friend got traded, I'd be very disappointed in this team's leadership.
I think its more or less the fact that they fed off of his energy and enthusiasm more than anything. Energy is contagious.

Ive had many co workers, some come into work full of life and other come in all disgusted and tired. And it effected me, I dont see it would be different for a hockey player. People feed off other peoples energy, be it positive or negative


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04-03-2009, 11:27 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
What I mean is when people say "Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo and Giroux". That's utter BS.

Yeah, there's a point to be made that we needed cap space for an injury call-up. However (and I've said this before), I would've rather sent Giroux down for two games if Kimmo has the flu and keep Upshall for a playoff run. What's the big deal in that? Are we at the point where Giroux is so essential to our success that we can't send him down for a few days?

We're 7-7 since the trade deadline and have been fortunate to win some of those games. I don't think we've looked like the same team as before the deadline.
I don't think it's BS, but that's just me. I remember reading the day before, IIRC, that we had like $23,000 cap room.

I don't feel, at the time that Giroux was that essential but clearly something had to give. What if other injuries/sickness set in? We'd have been ****ed. In many regards, we still are.

What Holmgren did was ease the cap pressure and brought in another player (Carcillo) who is signed cheaper, and thru next season. In doing so, it allowed Giroux to stay with the team...which has proven effective.

I think we can all say that if there was no cap, Upshall would most likely still be a Flyer.

While team chemisty is something of importance, to suggest that Upshall is the reason for the 7-7 record, IMO, is stretching it. Yes he was an energy player that went balls to the wall with pretty much every shift, but he was producing numbers where it would make that kind of difference. At least not to me.

I have nothing against Upshall, I like him here, still do like him...he's an easy guy to like and a player you like having on your team. At the end of the day though, this is Scottie Upshall we're talking about...he only had 7 goals.

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04-03-2009, 11:42 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
I think it was more of an Injury flexibility plan for the stretch run. iuno. I would have traded Jones for a cheaper dman to create that flexibility.
So then a guy goes on IR, misses a week, and you call someone up. Like everyone else does.


I will add on to one of FlyHigh's points. A question was 'if we trade Jones, do you go to Syvret?'

If Syvret would have gotten a chance to play earlier in the season, like he should have, and he played well (Keith Jones seemed pretty sure was going to happen back in the fall, not that he is the the sharpest knife in the drawer), maybe he impresses well enough that you can trade Jones for something this team actually needed. They ended up trading for Carle, who has a longer contract, so someone in that front office knew Jones wasn't going to be the answer when he came back.

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04-03-2009, 11:43 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This is why you trade Lupul. Short-term and long-term helps the salary cap, paired with the fact that Briere theoretically "replaces" his offense in the lineup.

Gagne-Richards-Knuble
Hartnell-Carter-Briere
Upshall-Giroux-Powe/Asham

I would be a happy camper...nevermind that I think we should have fixed this problem a bit sooner so that we could have kept Metro, who was perfectly fine as a 3rd line center.
I can see this argument, but from the pure talent standpoint, I'd just try to keep Lupul and make a bit of a run this year and then do a slight rebuild by jettisoning Lupul in the summer and giving a bigger role to Giroux and maybe JVR as well.

I mean, I hate to say it, but Scotty is very, very replaceable from within the organization. We have potential 3rd liners coming out the wazoo and the team has drafted extremely well at forward no matter where they're picking.

Also, on the team chemistry, while I'm not saying it's totally insignificant, there are loads of examples of teams that hated each other and still won. Look at some of the Laker teams in history (Kobe and Shaq, even a couple of the Magic teams) and the 90s Cowboys.

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04-03-2009, 11:46 AM
  #33
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Shame he's RFA and not UFA. I'm pretty sure he'd take less to come back to Philly.

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04-03-2009, 11:47 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
\
I will add on to one of FlyHigh's points. A question was 'if we trade Jones, do you go to Syvret?'

If Syvret would have gotten a chance to play earlier in the season, like he should have, and he played well (Keith Jones seemed pretty sure was going to happen back in the fall, not that he is the the sharpest knife in the drawer), maybe he impresses well enough that you can trade Jones for something this team actually needed. They ended up trading for Carle, who has a longer contract, so someone in that front office knew Jones wasn't going to be the answer when he came back.
I dunno, who are you going to bench so that Syvret can play? I don't want to have the Carle debate (again!), but I think he's been a positive factor overall for the team. Like I've said, nobody wants to trade for Kaberle anymore...

I mean, Jones does do a good job most of the time. He and Alberts have formed a pretty decent 3rd pairing. Obviously he's overpaid and I think we can replace him from within for next year, but he fulfills a specific function on this team that I wouldn't trust Syvret to do.

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04-03-2009, 11:49 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
upshall is nothing special.
I was never a big fan but it seems clear (to me, anyway) that they miss his gusto.

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04-03-2009, 11:55 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I dunno, who are you going to bench so that Syvret can play? I don't want to have the Carle debate (again!), but I think he's been a positive factor overall for the team. Like I've said, nobody wants to trade for Kaberle anymore...

I mean, Jones does do a good job most of the time. He and Alberts have formed a pretty decent 3rd pairing. Obviously he's overpaid and I think we can replace him from within for next year, but he fulfills a specific function on this team that I wouldn't trust Syvret to do.
It's more of a Syvret v. Jones with a little of 'Sbisa should have never been on the team,' than a debate on Carle. If Syvret plays, maybe you decide you don't need Jones, or you're at least more comfortable using him if it comes to that. Instead they called him up for 2 games hoping he wasn't going to bomb, which they could have been past if they would have used him earlier in the season like they should have.

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04-03-2009, 11:58 AM
  #37
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What about Lasse Kukkonen as an option. Never had a real issue with him either. Hes a good 6 or 7 d-man. If we traded Jones for picks, Id have no issue with Lasse taking his spot.

I do know that Stevens hates him for some reason.

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04-03-2009, 11:58 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I don't think it's BS, but that's just me. I remember reading the day before, IIRC, that we had like $23,000 cap room.

I don't feel, at the time that Giroux was that essential but clearly something had to give. What if other injuries/sickness set in? We'd have been ****ed. In many regards, we still are.

What Holmgren did was ease the cap pressure and brought in another player (Carcillo) who is signed cheaper, and thru next season. In doing so, it allowed Giroux to stay with the team...which has proven effective.

I think we can all say that if there was no cap, Upshall would most likely still be a Flyer.

While team chemisty is something of importance, to suggest that Upshall is the reason for the 7-7 record, IMO, is stretching it. Yes he was an energy player that went balls to the wall with pretty much every shift, but he was producing numbers where it would make that kind of difference. At least not to me.

I have nothing against Upshall, I like him here, still do like him...he's an easy guy to like and a player you like having on your team. At the end of the day though, this is Scottie Upshall we're talking about...he only had 7 goals.
I agree with a lot of this. I keep seeing people say well if A dman gets hurt we can just send giroux down for a couple games. Well what they arent thinking about is that if someone like Timonen gets hurt essentially giroux gets hurt too. What if Kimmo was hurt for like 10 games? We would lose the two of them, a valuable top 9 forward AND out best player for 10 games. We would be ****** and possibly miss the playoffs completely.

What upshall does on another team really doesnt matter because he WAS NOT going to do it here, ever! He was going tobe let go in the offseason. From what ive heard he was asking for 2.5+ next year. No I dont have a link, Its just what ive heard from a couple people I know working with the Flyers. I guess we will see what he gets this summer and we can decide how terrible this trade is. I mean, yes Upshall is a better player than Carcillo but its not like he was producing here either. He was playing 10-12 minutes a night so anyone that says that he sparked the team with his energy is ridiculous. The guy got like 3-4 shifts a period.

The team chemistry thing is stupid too. Come on, these guys are professionals. If they are sad because their little buddy is gone and that is effecting their play then they dont deserve to win anyway. Chemistry is one thing, but being friends is another. Chemistry ON THE ICE is what im worried about. Like dont break up big time scoring lines. Was the chemistry on Upshalls line so good that it hurt the team to break them up? No.

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04-03-2009, 12:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's more of a Syvret v. Jones with a little of 'Sbisa should have never been on the team,' than a debate on Carle. If Syvret plays, maybe you decide you don't need Jones, or you're at least more comfortable using him if it comes to that. Instead they called him up for 2 games hoping he wasn't going to bomb, which they could have been past if they would have used him earlier in the season like they should have.
That's fair enough. I didn't mind giving Sbisa the 9 game look, but he never should have been up for 40 games.

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04-03-2009, 12:02 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
What about Lasse Kukkonen as an option. Never had a real issue with him either. Hes a good 6 or 7 d-man. If we traded Jones for picks, Id have no issue with Lasse taking his spot.

I do know that Stevens hates him for some reason.
No, he cleared waivers, which means he can't play hockey.


He can be recalled on an emergency basis.

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04-03-2009, 12:07 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I agree with a lot of this. I keep seeing people say well if A dman gets hurt we can just send giroux down for a couple games. Well what they arent thinking about is that if someone like Timonen gets hurt essentially giroux gets hurt too. What if Kimmo was hurt for like 10 games? We would lose the two of them, a valuable top 9 forward AND out best player for 10 games. We would be ****** and possibly miss the playoffs completely.

What upshall does on another team really doesnt matter because he WAS NOT going to do it here, ever! He was going tobe let go in the offseason. From what ive heard he was asking for 2.5+ next year. No I dont have a link, Its just what ive heard from a couple people I know working with the Flyers. I guess we will see what he gets this summer and we can decide how terrible this trade is. I mean, yes Upshall is a better player than Carcillo but its not like he was producing here either. He was playing 10-12 minutes a night so anyone that says that he sparked the team with his energy is ridiculous. The guy got like 3-4 shifts a period.

The team chemistry thing is stupid too. Come on, these guys are professionals. If they are sad because their little buddy is gone and that is effecting their play then they dont deserve to win anyway. Chemistry is one thing, but being friends is another. Chemistry ON THE ICE is what im worried about. Like dont break up big time scoring lines. Was the chemistry on Upshalls line so good that it hurt the team to break them up? No.
Ok, for real? Upshall played at 110% everytime on the ice. He would fly in on the forecheck, and as a player on the bench that HAS to get you excited. Who on this team does that? Who. Powe is the only person i see who resembles that. They arent playing like **** because they miss their buddy. They are playing like crap because noone is picking up that energy Upshall left. They play so lethargic. They dump the puck in and lazily skate in the zone, by then the puck is cleared and they lazily skate out. Ive said it before, energy is contagious, and when you see a guy trying everytime hes on the ice its gotta inspire you. This is where our ****ing captain needs to grab the team by the balls and show em how its done. Its just since the break they havent played inspired hockey. They have guys who can create a buzz on the bench, and they need to start doing it (Richards, Hartnell in particular)

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04-03-2009, 12:11 PM
  #42
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Yeah, I don't buy the whole "the team is playing badly cause Upshall left" stuff for a second.

First of all, we have a team CAPTAIN and guys like Hartnell, Kimmo, Gagne, Danny, and Knuble so that this tough doesn't happen. This game is a business. If these guys aren't going to give effort because their friend got traded, that's pathetic and there's no excuse for that.

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04-03-2009, 12:15 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
So then a guy goes on IR, misses a week, and you call someone up. Like everyone else does.
Why have you not figured out why this was a problem yet? It's been explained time and again. The problem was that the Flyers were SO tight to the cap that they could not call up someone without sending down someone else. Thus, when Timonen got sick and they needed to bring Guenin to fill in for him, that meant Giroux had to go back down because they didn't have the cap space to bring another player onto the roster to fill in for anyone if it was a short-term injury.

So, no, we couldn't just call someone up like everyone else does...that was specifically the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I can see this argument, but from the pure talent standpoint, I'd just try to keep Lupul and make a bit of a run this year and then do a slight rebuild by jettisoning Lupul in the summer and giving a bigger role to Giroux and maybe JVR as well.
Lupul certainly does have talent, but he's pretty damn one-dimensional...and the problems were created by bringing up another one-dimensional player. He doesn't give you all that much if you move him down the lineup.

Quote:
I mean, I hate to say it, but Scotty is very, very replaceable from within the organization. We have potential 3rd liners coming out the wazoo and the team has drafted extremely well at forward no matter where they're picking.
Scotty wasn't a third liner, though, that's the real point. He's a tweener, who was playing on the third line for us...which is why he was such a valuable commodity. How many true "third liners" do we have on our team right now that you'd really want to see playing on the 1st or 2nd lines in a jam? Powe? No, and, in fact, he's really a fourth liner who doesn't embarrass himself on the third line. Asham? No.

Guys coming up in the next couple of years? Who the F knows. Upshall was a cheap player, who provided energy with his shifts, and was flexible throughout the lineup. Now we have these goofy lines and are struggling...I mean, seriously, that trade led directly to them trying to make this roster work with Richards, our leading scorer, centering the third line with Carcillo...who is now a fourth liner, on his wing.

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04-03-2009, 12:17 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I agree with a lot of this. I keep seeing people say well if A dman gets hurt we can just send giroux down for a couple games. Well what they arent thinking about is that if someone like Timonen gets hurt essentially giroux gets hurt too. What if Kimmo was hurt for like 10 games? We would lose the two of them, a valuable top 9 forward AND out best player for 10 games. We would be ****** and possibly miss the playoffs completely.
If he got hurt that significantly, you put him on LTIR and then you don't have a problem with the salary cap. The problem was specific to short-term injuries where you wouldn't place the player on LTIR, you would put them on IR.

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04-03-2009, 12:19 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah, I don't buy the whole "the team is playing badly cause Upshall left" stuff for a second.

First of all, we have a team CAPTAIN and guys like Hartnell, Kimmo, Gagne, Danny, and Knuble so that this tough doesn't happen. This game is a business. If these guys aren't going to give effort because their friend got traded, that's pathetic and there's no excuse for that.
Don't ever assume that the "it's a business" discussion can be applied so stridently. While it is factually true that it is operated as such, in human terms on the ground it's far more complex at times. There's a reason players do sign for "hometown discounts" at times, and there's a reason why a team might not react well to certain personnel movements a GM might make.

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04-03-2009, 12:21 PM
  #46
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Scotty wasn't a third liner, though, that's the real point. He's a tweener, who was playing on the third line for us...which is why he was such a valuable commodity. How many true "third liners" do we have on our team right now that you'd really want to see playing on the 1st or 2nd lines in a jam? Powe? No, and, in fact, he's really a fourth liner who doesn't embarrass himself on the third line. Asham? No.

Guys coming up in the next couple of years? Who the F knows. Upshall was a cheap player, who provided energy with his shifts, and was flexible throughout the lineup. Now we have these goofy lines and are struggling...I mean, seriously, that trade led directly to them trying to make this roster work with Richards, our leading scorer, centering the third line with Carcillo...who is now a fourth liner, on his wing.
I agree with you, but I think the roster shakeup has a **** of a lot more to do with Briere having come back, than Upshall being traded.

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04-03-2009, 12:25 PM
  #47
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Lupul certainly does have talent, but he's pretty damn one-dimensional...and the problems were created by bringing up another one-dimensional player. He doesn't give you all that much if you move him down the lineup.
Yeah but we shouldn't be moving him down anyways. The Olde City line was our best one for most of the season.

If I'm going into a 7 game series, I'd much rather have Lupul on the roster than Scottie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Scotty wasn't a third liner, though, that's the real point. He's a tweener, who was playing on the third line for us...which is why he was such a valuable commodity. How many true "third liners" do we have on our team right now that you'd really want to see playing on the 1st or 2nd lines in a jam? Powe? No, and, in fact, he's really a fourth liner who doesn't embarrass himself on the third line. Asham? No.

Guys coming up in the next couple of years? Who the F knows. Upshall was a cheap player, who provided energy with his shifts, and was flexible throughout the lineup. Now we have these goofy lines and are struggling...I mean, seriously, that trade led directly to them trying to make this roster work with Richards, our leading scorer, centering the third line with Carcillo...who is now a fourth liner, on his wing.
Look at what this team has at F. Richie, Gagne, Hartnell, Carter, Briere, Giroux are basically guarantees to be here for at least the next 2 years. Lupul or Knuble is still going to be here next year. Nodl is skilled enough to be at least a 3rd liner, just needs to bring his D to an NHL level. Maroon and Matsumoto are certainly still question marks, but definite possibilities. Ross is a very intriguing guy because he definitely has offensive upside.

Plus, as I said, this team has traditionally drafted extremely well at forward.

Ultimately, the loss of Scottie should not affect this team too much. Barely a truly horrific set of injuries, he wasn't going to play a top-6 role in the playoffs and he's replaceable in the future.

If the team is playing this much worse because of him leaving, that's inexcusable.

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04-03-2009, 12:25 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Ok, for real? Upshall played at 110% everytime on the ice. He would fly in on the forecheck, and as a player on the bench that HAS to get you excited. Who on this team does that? Who. Powe is the only person i see who resembles that. They arent playing like **** because they miss their buddy. They are playing like crap because noone is picking up that energy Upshall left. They play so lethargic. They dump the puck in and lazily skate in the zone, by then the puck is cleared and they lazily skate out. Ive said it before, energy is contagious, and when you see a guy trying everytime hes on the ice its gotta inspire you. This is where our ****ing captain needs to grab the team by the balls and show em how its done. Its just since the break they havent played inspired hockey. They have guys who can create a buzz on the bench, and they need to start doing it (Richards, Hartnell in particular)
I never said he didnt give 110%. I guess we can just agree to disagree on the energy thing. I know I for one have never sat on the bench between shifts and watched an energy guy go out and run around like crazy and say ok thats what I need to do. Half the time your on the bench you are barely paying attention to the game. Your talking with your defensive partner, or your wingers about what happened that shift. Yes, he picks up the tempo of the game when hes out there but to suggest that a 3rd liner that put up very little points and played 10 minutes a game is the reason we have played badly lately is something I just dont agree with. Im not saying your wrong, maybe that is it, Im just not buying it.

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04-03-2009, 12:27 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Don't ever assume that the "it's a business" discussion can be applied so stridently. While it is factually true that it is operated as such, in human terms on the ground it's far more complex at times. There's a reason players do sign for "hometown discounts" at times, and there's a reason why a team might not react well to certain personnel movements a GM might make.
I'm sorry, but if a performance like the one against TOR is a consequence of the team being upset at a player leaving, that's just a horrific job of leadership by guys like Richie and Kimmo.

Guys need to move on and focus on the season.

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04-03-2009, 12:28 PM
  #50
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it still amaze me, people writes that Jones is overpaid, can't shoot, can't pass, can't skate, etc., on the other hand they keep saying trade him... I bet every other GM in the league can't wait for chance to trade him, probably Flyers don't trade him on the trade deadline just because they have too many lucrative offers...

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