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Old
04-03-2009, 12:33 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah but we shouldn't be moving him down anyways. The Olde City line was our best one for most of the season.

If I'm going into a 7 game series, I'd much rather have Lupul on the roster than Scottie.
Filling what role?

When fully healthy, I think Upshall is a far more useful player to this lineup.

Quote:
Look at what this team has at F. Richie, Gagne, Hartnell, Carter, Briere, Giroux are basically guarantees to be here for at least the next 2 years. Lupul or Knuble is still going to be here next year. Nodl is skilled enough to be at least a 3rd liner, just needs to bring his D to an NHL level. Maroon and Matsumoto are certainly still question marks, but definite possibilities. Ross is a very intriguing guy because he definitely has offensive upside.
Nodl is nowhere near being a contributing NHL forward.

Quote:
Ultimately, the loss of Scottie should not affect this team too much. Barely a truly horrific set of injuries, he wasn't going to play a top-6 role in the playoffs and he's replaceable in the future.
Upshall did lots of little things over the course of the game. Hartnell gets in a fight? Upshall takes his shift...now it's Asham. When the lines are messed up after a PP/PK, you could put him out there on the upper lines.

It isn't just injuries where a guy like Upshall pops up and helps out further up the lineup.

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If the team is playing this much worse because of him leaving, that's inexcusable.
It's a host of factors, I wouldn't be shocked if that's one of 'em. They lost Metro, Vaananen, and Upshall in quick succession...all guys who had been filling roles on this team from the beginning of the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm sorry, but if a performance like the one against TOR is a consequence of the team being upset at a player leaving, that's just a horrific job of leadership by guys like Richie and Kimmo.

Guys need to move on and focus on the season.
Unfortunately, rationality isn't always a human strength.

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Old
04-03-2009, 12:36 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiD View Post
it still amaze me, people writes that Jones is overpaid, can't shoot, can't pass, can't skate, etc., on the other hand they keep saying trade him... I bet every other GM in the league can't wait for chance to trade him, probably Flyers don't trade him on the trade deadline just because they have too many lucrative offers...
um...no.

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04-03-2009, 12:42 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Filling what role?
When fully healthy, I think Upshall is a far more useful player to this lineup.
The Olde City line role. I think Carter and Harts have obviously been key to the line, but Lupul has filled a nice spot as the big-bodied sniper on that line. I don't think there's any way Upshall does what Lupul can do there. That line has consistently been our best one all year.

The 2 goals Lupul scored at NYI that turned the game around, that's something Upshall is much less likely to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Nodl is nowhere near being a contributing NHL forward.
I wouldn't say that, he's had an interesting first AHL season with a solid .5 PPG pace and keeping an even rating on a team without many positive players outside of Ross. Plus, he had the rep as a good defensive player at St. Cloud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Upshall did lots of little things over the course of the game. Hartnell gets in a fight? Upshall takes his shift...now it's Asham. When the lines are messed up after a PP/PK, you could put him out there on the upper lines.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you always maintained that there's no fighting in the playoffs? I mean, if Hartnell is fighting in the playoffs, I have a serious problem with that.

As far as the post PK shift, you are talking about a max of 5-6 shifts per game where Asham might play 30 secs instead of Upshall. That shouldn't be a determining factor in whether we win or lose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
It's a host of factors, I wouldn't be shocked if that's one of 'em. They lost Metro, Vaananen, and Upshall in quick succession...all guys who had been filling roles on this team from the beginning of the season.
Yeah, but Vaananen has been replaced by Parent, Metro was upgraded by Giroux, and we've had a slight downgrade from Upshall to Carcillo. The on-ice effect should be minimal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Unfortunately, rationality isn't always a human strength.
Somebody needs to get up in that locker room and say, "Look, Scottie got traded, it sucks, but WE NEED TO FOCUS ON WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP."

If that hasn't been done, that's a flat-out ****** job of leadership.

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Old
04-03-2009, 12:53 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The Olde City line role. I think Carter and Harts have obviously been key to the line, but Lupul has filled a nice spot as the big-bodied sniper on that line. I don't think there's any way Upshall does what Lupul can do there. That line has consistently been our best one all year.
Yes, but now I have Briere to put on that line. We're not talking about Upshall playing with Carter and Hartnell, we have yet another one-dimensional forward we can stick on that spot in the lineup.

Again...look at the disjointed lines we've put together since then trying to make this group work as lines 1-3.

Quote:
The 2 goals Lupul scored at NYI that turned the game around, that's something Upshall is much less likely to do.
Lupul is also far more likely to be invisible the next day.

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I wouldn't say that, he's had an interesting first AHL season with a solid .5 PPG pace and keeping an even rating on a team without many positive players outside of Ross. Plus, he had the rep as a good defensive player at St. Cloud.
I'm sorry, 6 goals in 40 games or whatever in the AHL isn't impressing me one iota.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you always maintained that there's no fighting in the playoffs? I mean, if Hartnell is fighting in the playoffs, I have a serious problem with that.
Yes, but we're struggling in the regular season right now, aren't we?

Quote:
As far as the post PK shift, you are talking about a max of 5-6 shifts per game where Asham might play 30 secs instead of Upshall. That shouldn't be a determining factor in whether we win or lose.
That crap adds up man...you just said Asham is skating with some of our better players for 2.5-3 minutes a game.

Quote:
Yeah, but Vaananen has been replaced by Parent, Metro was upgraded by Giroux, and we've had a slight downgrade from Upshall to Carcillo. The on-ice effect should be minimal.
And everyone needed to work out playing with new people...I mean, seriously, we babble about turnover being a problem at the beginning of the season...Vaananen was playing 20 minutes a night shortly before being benched and then waived. Metro was playing a regular shift and out there on the PK...and Carcillo is a significant downgrade in talent from what I've seen.

For a team to be making significant changes in personnel this late in the season...that's a big deal. It's something you want to avoid...and Holmgren clearly didn't want to do it, but was ultimately forced to. The fact that he wasn't more preemptive in dealing with it is why it went down the way it did.

Quote:
Somebody needs to get up in that locker room and say, "Look, Scottie got traded, it sucks, but WE NEED TO FOCUS ON WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP."

If that hasn't been done, that's a flat-out ****** job of leadership.
Maybe...maybe you have a group of players who don't respond to that type of stuff. If leadership was so easy...there wouldn't be so few good leaders, and developing leadership wouldn't be such a process.

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Old
04-03-2009, 01:08 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, but now I have Briere to put on that line. We're not talking about Upshall playing with Carter and Hartnell, we have yet another one-dimensional forward we can stick on that spot in the lineup.

Again...look at the disjointed lines we've put together since then trying to make this group work as lines 1-3.
Again, not helped by the fact that we have a coach who can't keep set lines for more than 30 minutes.

I honestly didn't have a huge problem with giving the Carcillo-Richards-Lupul line a try. I said this a while ago, but if Richie could turn that line into a line that could go up against Crosby or someone else, that would be a phenomenal achievement. Of course, developing that kind of chemistry and defensive presence would take some time, they got 4 games. Richie and Lupul had some chemistry last year too, so I wouldn't say we're totally marooning Richie. Unfortunately, we gave that line about 40 minutes of game time and decided it would never work.

Then you try Hartnell-Carter-Briere (guess we'll never know how that would have turned out) and Gagne-Giroux-Knuble.

Unfortunately now we have 1 good ES line (Olde City), 1 inconsistent ES line (Gagne-Richards-Knuble) and 1 ****-up (Asham/Carcillo-Giroux-Briere).

I honestly blame coaching for a lot of the flat-out retarded decisions we've seen over the past 2-3 weeks, but that's Holmgren's job too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Yes, but we're struggling in the regular season right now, aren't we?
I don't think Hartnell fighting/not fighting has anything to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
That crap adds up man...you just said Asham is skating with some of our better players for 2.5-3 minutes a game.
Upshall had 7 goals when he left us, probably would have ended up with 10-12. Asham has 8. Not a huge downgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
And everyone needed to work out playing with new people...I mean, seriously, we babble about turnover being a problem at the beginning of the season...Vaananen was playing 20 minutes a night shortly before being benched and then waived. Metro was playing a regular shift and out there on the PK...and Carcillo is a significant downgrade in talent from what I've seen.

For a team to be making significant changes in personnel this late in the season...that's a big deal. It's something you want to avoid...and Holmgren clearly didn't want to do it, but was ultimately forced to. The fact that he wasn't more preemptive in dealing with it is why it went down the way it did.
That isn't an excuse for the effort dumps this team takes on a nightly basis. You can't blame the defensive lack of effort vs. Toronto or the NYI on "getting to know each other." It's because they aren't trying hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Maybe...maybe you have a group of players who don't respond to that type of stuff. If leadership was so easy...there wouldn't be so few good leaders, and developing leadership wouldn't be such a process.
Honestly, do you think a Sutter/Tortorella/Julien coached team would be getting ******* weepy about it? No, they'd move on.

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Old
04-03-2009, 01:09 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
What about Lasse Kukkonen as an option. Never had a real issue with him either. Hes a good 6 or 7 d-man. If we traded Jones for picks, Id have no issue with Lasse taking his spot.

I do know that Stevens hates him for some reason.
I just wanted to point out real quick, Lasse Kukkonen is a free agent after this season. I'm almost 100% positive we won't be seeing him next year.

Apologies is this has been pointed out, prior to my posting.

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Old
04-03-2009, 01:09 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Why have you not figured out why this was a problem yet? It's been explained time and again. The problem was that the Flyers were SO tight to the cap that they could not call up someone without sending down someone else. Thus, when Timonen got sick and they needed to bring Guenin to fill in for him, that meant Giroux had to go back down because they didn't have the cap space to bring another player onto the roster to fill in for anyone if it was a short-term injury.

So, no, we couldn't just call someone up like everyone else does...that was specifically the problem.
Wrong.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=6198168&postcount=25

It counts, but the team can go over the upper limit to replace the salary for as long as he is out INJURY OR ILLNESS. He only had to be on IR for 7 days, and could have been done retroactively. LTIR had nothing to do with it. LTIR only states that if the player misses 40 games his salary becomes prorated, he has to be on for at least 24 days, and you have to file the exemption with the league.

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Old
04-03-2009, 01:19 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
I never said he didnt give 110%. I guess we can just agree to disagree on the energy thing. I know I for one have never sat on the bench between shifts and watched an energy guy go out and run around like crazy and say ok thats what I need to do. Half the time your on the bench you are barely paying attention to the game. Your talking with your defensive partner, or your wingers about what happened that shift. Yes, he picks up the tempo of the game when hes out there but to suggest that a 3rd liner that put up very little points and played 10 minutes a game is the reason we have played badly lately is something I just dont agree with. Im not saying your wrong, maybe that is it, Im just not buying it.
im not trying to blame our **** play on the trade directly. i do think its played a factor. the main reason this team has sucked is the fact they havent played with any emotion or interest lately. we have other energy guys who arent playing at their high level

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Old
04-03-2009, 01:26 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiD View Post
it still amaze me, people writes that Jones is overpaid, can't shoot, can't pass, can't skate, etc., on the other hand they keep saying trade him... I bet every other GM in the league can't wait for chance to trade him, probably Flyers don't trade him on the trade deadline just because they have too many lucrative offers...
Your kidding right? I hope we have atleast one taker on him...

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Old
04-03-2009, 02:13 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Wrong.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=6198168&postcount=25

It counts, but the team can go over the upper limit to replace the salary for as long as he is out INJURY OR ILLNESS. He only had to be on IR for 7 days, and could have been done retroactively. LTIR had nothing to do with it. LTIR only states that if the player misses 40 games his salary becomes prorated, he has to be on for at least 24 days, and you have to file the exemption with the league.
Dude, you need to read some stuff again.

1) That question is specifically about LTIR.

2) That quote specifically refutes what you are saying.

LTIR allows you to exceed the salary cap while replacing a player, IR does not allow you.

I mean, seriously, do you think they sent Giroux down for ***** and giggles? Were you not paying attention to what was going on while Timonen was hurt at all?

The difference between IR and LTIR is the specific reason why they felt they needed to make a trade.

I mean, seriously, go friggin read: www.nhl.com/cba/2005-CBA.pdf

Page 226 of the NHL CBA:
Quote:
(a) All Player Salary and Bonuses paid to Players on an NHL Active Roster,
Injured Reserve or Non Roster that are Unfit to Play –being either injured or suffering
from an illness –shall be counted against a Club's Upper Limit, Actual Club Salary and
Averaged Club Salary, as well as against the Players' Share. Notwithstanding the
preceding sentence, a Club shall be permitted to exceed the Upper Limit (but Leaguewide
Player Compensation shall never be permitted to exceed the Players' Share) by
virtue of the Bona-Fide Long-Term Injury/Illness Exception set forth in subsection (d) below.
There is a difference between IR and LTIR for a reason. If IR worked the way you claim/think it does, there would be no reason to distinguish between the two.

Further:

Quote:
(b) The Player Salary and Bonuses for any Players that are added to a Club's
NHL Roster under emergency conditions shall count against any such Club's Upper
Limit, Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, as well as against the Players'
Share.
As to the IR situation, page 86 of the CBA:

Quote:
(d) Once a Player is placed on the Injured Reserve List, the Club may replace
said Player on its NHL Active Roster with another Player, and during such period of his
designation as an Injured Reserve Player he will not count against the Club's Active
Roster limit, provided, however, that the Injured Reserve Player's Player Salary and
Bonuses and his replacement's Player Salary and Bonuses are each included in
calculating a Club's Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, and the Players'
Share, for purposes of Article 50.
IR lets you bring a guy up without it counting against the roster limit, it DOES NOT mean you get that guy for free against the salary cap.

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Old
04-03-2009, 02:23 PM
  #61
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You think I would pull out a post from 3 years ago without reading it? He asked about LTIR, but the answer was expressed simply as injured players, not LTIR.

I said they're allow to replace it while he's injured, it essentially doesn't count, only because you're allowed to replace it, as long as you're under the cap when he comes off.

What's the point of allowing guys to go on IR retroactively is there is no point in doing it?

I already explained why IR and LTIR are different, because there are different policies for LTIR.

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Old
04-03-2009, 02:30 PM
  #62
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Thing is, Giroux did have to go down to let Guenin replace Timonen in the lineup short term. So you can argue semantics and quote the CBA back and forth at each other, but it doesn't change the fact that in practice the Flyers had to send Giroux down to allow a player from a different position to be replaced.

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Old
04-03-2009, 02:34 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
You think I would pull out a post from 3 years ago without reading it? He asked about LTIR, but the answer was expressed simply as injured players, not LTIR.
You clearly did not read it, or do not understand what it's saying.

Quote:
I said they're allow to replace it while he's injured, it essentially doesn't count, only because you're allowed to replace it, as long as you're under the cap when he comes off.
NO! That is specifically not what is happening.

If a player is on IR...you have to be under the cap the entire time he is hurt. If the player is on LTIR, you can exceed the salary cap while he is hurt and then must be back under it when he comes back.

From the Flyers this year:

1) Briere was on LTIR and the Flyers were allowed to exceed the salary cap while he was hurt, but had to go back under when he came back.

2) Timonen was hurt, they had to send Giroux back down in order to bring Guenin back up.

Quote:
What's the point of allowing guys to go on IR retroactively is there is no point in doing it?
It gives you greater roster flexibility.

Quote:
I already explained why IR and LTIR are different, because there are different policies for LTIR.
Yes, there are different policies. With LTIR you can replace the salary on the roster while the player is hurt...with IR, you cannot replace the salary on the roster. While a player is on IR both the injured player and his replacements salary count against the salary cap.

When Timonen was hurt they called up Nate Guenin...Timonen's salary counted against the cap, and Guenin's did too. This would have put the Flyers over the salary cap, so they shipped Giroux to the Phantoms for that Devils game because that brought us back under the salary cap.

So, you shouldn't be explaining the difference...cuz you don't seem to know the difference.

I hate the Upshall trade, but the rational for making a deal was perfectly reasonable and accurate. They had a real salary cap problem if they did not make a deal. We would have been unable to call up a short-term injury replacement if anyone got hurt for the rest of the regular season without sending someone down (likely Giroux), which was a BIG problem. So, they made a deal. I think they made the wrong one, but this isn't a case of Holmgren inventing a false problem and solving it.

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04-03-2009, 02:38 PM
  #64
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I sent out the bat signal to get an answer. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I wouldn't argue about it this long if it's not something I haven't been told in the past, as every CBA discussion we've had, I've always asked someone who has the answer.

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04-03-2009, 02:39 PM
  #65
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It's what happens when you have have two supremely overpaid forwards in Lupul and Briere. The third liner with an OK contract becomes the casualty.

They could have kept Upshall and dumped somebody else. Waiving Jones would have worked for me.

Oh well...

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04-03-2009, 02:41 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
It's what happens when you have have two supremely overpaid forwards in Lupul and Briere. The third liner with an OK contract becomes the casualty.

They could have kept Upshall and dumped somebody else. Waiving Jones would have worked for me.

Oh well...
Lupul is on a very nice contract this year...and I wouldn't even say Briere is "supremely overpaid." The problem is that we have two other centers that are better than him and also making non-trivial cash.

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04-03-2009, 02:46 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I sent out the bat signal to get an answer. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I wouldn't argue about it this long if it's not something I haven't been told in the past, as every CBA discussion we've had, I've always asked someone who has the answer.
The other problem with what you are saying is that you assume these injuries would have qualified for IR anyway. If a guy was going to miss a game or two, we most likely would not have wanted to use IR anyway...for example, they clearly were expecting Timonen to come back quicker than he did. In which case, you don't want to place him on IR in the first place.

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04-03-2009, 02:46 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Lupul is on a very nice contract this year...and I wouldn't even say Briere is "supremely overpaid." The problem is that we have two other centers that are better than him and also making non-trivial cash.
Exactly, Briere is only vastly over paid on this roster. He is a bona fide top 2 center, and a healthy Briere earns 6.5 on most other teams.

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04-03-2009, 02:47 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
I don't think it's BS, but that's just me. I remember reading the day before, IIRC, that we had like $23,000 cap room.

I don't feel, at the time that Giroux was that essential but clearly something had to give. What if other injuries/sickness set in? We'd have been ****ed. In many regards, we still are.

What Holmgren did was ease the cap pressure and brought in another player (Carcillo) who is signed cheaper, and thru next season. In doing so, it allowed Giroux to stay with the team...which has proven effective.

I think we can all say that if there was no cap, Upshall would most likely still be a Flyer.

While team chemisty is something of importance, to suggest that Upshall is the reason for the 7-7 record, IMO, is stretching it. Yes he was an energy player that went balls to the wall with pretty much every shift, but he was producing numbers where it would make that kind of difference. At least not to me.

I have nothing against Upshall, I like him here, still do like him...he's an easy guy to like and a player you like having on your team. At the end of the day though, this is Scottie Upshall we're talking about...he only had 7 goals.



Thanks for being a voice of reason Opus. Carcillo has been fine in replacement of Upshall.

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04-03-2009, 02:49 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Thanks for being a voice of reason Opus. Carcillo has been fine in replacement of Upshall.
He has four points and has been dropped to the 4th line. Carcillo is no longer replacing Upshall. Asham is.

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04-03-2009, 02:53 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Thanks for being a voice of reason Opus. Carcillo has been fine in replacement of Upshall.
Carcillo got moved to fourth line duty... thats hardly replacing Upshall

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04-03-2009, 02:55 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The other problem with what you are saying is that you assume these injuries would have qualified for IR anyway. If a guy was going to miss a game or two, we most likely would not have wanted to use IR anyway...for example, they clearly were expecting Timonen to come back quicker than he did. In which case, you don't want to place him on IR in the first place.
First of all, you are right, the first time I asked the question, I apparently was not given the right information (because I asked it when I first read the excerpts a few years ago). So now that that's out of the way, and I'm accused of not admitting when I'm wrong (since I know a lot of people seem to think that), I've been given the right answer (and since summoned the person I originally talked to to correct him).

Illness or injury qualifies for IR. 7-day or long-term. If you physically can't play, you can go on IR, as you CAN do it retroactively.

http://www.nhlscap.com/definitions.htm

Quote:
INJURED RESERVE LIST (IR) - the list of players who are not able to play for their team due to injury or illness. Players designated for IR must be on for a minimum of seven (7) days; assignments to IR can be made retroactively.

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04-03-2009, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Illness or injury qualifies for IR. 7-day or long-term. If you physically can't play, you can go on IR, as you CAN do it retroactively.

http://www.nhlscap.com/definitions.htm

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Yes, but if you don't think you're dealing with a 7-day injury/illness...then you're not going to use IR anyway, because that locks you into losing the guy for 7-days.

As you might recall, with Timonen he was out much longer than anyone expected. They kept expecting him to be back for the next game and then he wasn't ready to go.

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04-03-2009, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He has four points and has been dropped to the 4th line. Carcillo is no longer replacing Upshall. Asham is.


Doubt he was brought in to get points. It's not like Upshall got many. If I'm not mistaken, Carcillo's playing 10 1/2 minutes. That's replacing Upshall in my books. When Carcillo starts playing 3 to 4 minutes a game I'll change my tune.

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04-03-2009, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, but if you don't think you're dealing with a 7-day injury/illness...then you're not going to use IR anyway, because that locks you into losing the guy for 7-days.

As you might recall, with Timonen he was out much longer than anyone expected. They kept expecting him to be back for the next game and then he wasn't ready to go.
But he still could have been put on retroactively. If they would have done that on Day 6 and he was ready on Day 8, he could have been activated.

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