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So, the prob with this team was obviously Carbo..

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Old
04-03-2009, 05:06 PM
  #151
Coldplay
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With Carbo here, we'd be eliminated from contention already and Kovalev/Koivu would be hunted down by the racist mother****ers at l'Antichambre and 110%.

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04-03-2009, 05:17 PM
  #152
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carbo was a major part of the problem.....we now play a more structured game overall and especially on defense. Something carbo was not able to fix given all this time. Gainey did it within 2 weeks. Now our defense looks stronger with the same ppl in place, we let way less shots which in turn has given our goalies a chance at regaining their confidence(esp. price). Carbo was just too stubborn and claimed many times he has no idea what to do now and its all on the players. They may have stopped listening to him, speculation at this point, but we clearly see now that with a system in place we can become a good team once again.

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04-03-2009, 05:28 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by DaHabMan View Post
carbo was a major part of the problem.....we now play a more structured game overall and especially on defense. Something carbo was not able to fix given all this time. Gainey did it within 2 weeks. Now our defense looks stronger with the same ppl in place, we let way less shots which in turn has given our goalies a chance at regaining their confidence(esp. price). Carbo was just too stubborn and claimed many times he has no idea what to do now and its all on the players. They may have stopped listening to him, speculation at this point, but we clearly see now that with a system in place we can become a good team once again.
The two main problems with Carbo was his lack of communications with his player, + his stubborness of playing 4 lines all game long, even if he did not have the horses to play that kind of game this year.

He lost his "room".

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04-03-2009, 05:34 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
The two main problems with Carbo was his lack of communications with his player, + his stubborness of playing 4 lines all game long, even if he did not have the horses to play that kind of game this year.

He lost his "room".
The other major issue was that his system which he tried to adapt after the Bruins and Flyers dismantled it last year, didn't work. Last year teams took awhile to catch on, but once they did we folded like a suitcase. Now that Gainey has brought them back to some semblance of a system, the players are buying into it and we look like a team again.

Coaching when you're first overall is easy - it's when it became tough that his inexperience showed. IE - You should NEVER say you don't know what to do in public. You're the leader and the leader always knows what to do, even if they don't. Otherwise, why would anyone follow you? You're not the leader anymore.

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04-03-2009, 06:04 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by DaHabMan View Post
carbo was a major part of the problem.....we now play a more structured game overall and especially on defense. Something carbo was not able to fix given all this time. Gainey did it within 2 weeks. Now our defense looks stronger with the same ppl in place, we let way less shots which in turn has given our goalies a chance at regaining their confidence(esp. price). Carbo was just too stubborn and claimed many times he has no idea what to do now and its all on the players. They may have stopped listening to him, speculation at this point, but we clearly see now that with a system in place we can become a good team once again.
lol do you seriously think the inconsistency issue with this team is now part of the past? Watch the next few games and repeat me what you just said without laughing.. Gainey took a good decision putting his vets on the same line, something I myself suggested on this board before it happens, our vets took themself in hands and were able to make a difference in about every games since they are playing togheter, but there's still some major issues, what will be more evident in the upcoming games.. You are pretty naive to believe Gainey has adressed all the probs of this team and that we will surprise everyone in playoffs, as I said the last 2 games have been smokescreen, we won against one of the worst actual team in the NHL and agaisnt an AHL team the other night.. Yes this team has been playing better for 3-4 games in a row but we all know about their tendency to come back at their bad habits, never forget it my friend, this team is unconsistent and nothing let me believe thats something that will be adresses for good..

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04-03-2009, 06:10 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Actually, it should be clear to everyone now that the problem WAS the coach. The Habs are playing their best hockey since November in my opinion - the first line is dynamite (you're loving Kovy's performances I'm sure), and everyone else is giving their all out there. They look like a renewed team over the last 6 games, defensive play is way better, PP is working, and the goalies have their confidence back. We're finally playing as a TEAM, and I no longer have to sit and watch line 4 on the ice with 2 mins left in the game when we need a goal. I no longer have to see Kosto on the top line. etc. Once the second line gets going (look at the injuries they have had, how many games has Pleks and the Kosty brothers had together? 1? 2?) we'll be all good.

You want heart? The Habs are showing it to you now because they BELIEVE in their new coach. It took awhile for them to adjust, but I knew it would. You can't just change from one system to another and know what is expected of you immediately. These things take time.

The Habs are back baby, and even if they don't go that far I'll be happy knowing that they at least left it all on the ice. We all should be.
I agree with most of what you wrote. I always liked Carbo, but I started changing my opinion when he was making weird decisions that never seemed to work..

A coach's job is more then just X's and O's. It's also about finding solutions to problems and knowing how to get the most out of your players. Carbo once said, "Everyone knows it, 1/3 of your team hates you, 1/3 likes you and you try and sway the remaining 1/3". Well Guy, you better make sure that the 1/3 that like you are the ones with talent who can win you games.. Star players my not like a coach, but for a team to win, you have to find a way to make your team like it should play.

THis is my opinion... The Habs can be sensitive. So you have to make sure to motivate them and keep their confidence up. Carbo didn't know how to do that and I think it was a major reason Gainey had to step in. Carbo was doing a good job when the players had confidence. But Bob only realized after the team could not come out of their slump that Carbo wasn't capable of doing so.. A good coach knows what to say to get their team to play to it's potential. Whatever Carbo was saying wasn't working..

Again, that is my opinion..

Yes, there were injuries, but the team has to play with confidence even with a few guys out... I don't blame Carbo for not finishing 1st like last year. I blame him for his recent coaching decisions and for letting the team lose confidence and having them be out-shot every night and not think it was such an issue...

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04-03-2009, 06:20 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
lol do you seriously think the inconsistency issue with this team is now part of the past? Watch the next few games and repeat me what you just said without laughing.. Gainey took a good decision putting his vets on the same line, something I myself suggested on this board before it happens, our vets took themself in hands and were able to make a difference in about every games since they are playing togheter, but there's still some major issues, what will be more evident in the upcoming games.. You are pretty naive to believe Gainey has adressed all the probs of this team and that we will surprise everyone in playoffs, as I said the last 2 games have been smokescreen, we won against one of the worst actual team in the NHL and agaisnt an AHL team the other night.. Yes this team has been playing better for 3-4 games in a row but we all know about their tendency to come back at their bad habits, never forget it my friend, this team is unconsistent and nothing let me believe thats something that will be adresses for good..
I honestly believe that Kovalev, A. Kostitsyn and Plekanec all have lots of talent and can help win hockey games. Unfortunately They have all had their inconsistencies that has lead to the Habs struggling at times. As much as I think Pleky is a real team player and gives 100% every night, I expect the Habs to see who they can trade for or sign to replace these 3 players next season. They all have talent and can all get the Habs something in return.. But if no one is available, I expect Kovy to go first, then A. Kostitsyn and last Pleky. If they can get 2 guys and replace Kovy and Kosty, then maybe they will keep Plecky because he's easier to return and has a great attitude.. It depends on the cap and who they can sign...

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04-03-2009, 06:22 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
lol do you seriously think the inconsistency issue with this team is now part of the past? Watch the next few games and repeat me what you just said without laughing.. Gainey took a good decision putting his vets on the same line, something I myself suggested on this board before it happens, our vets took themself in hands and were able to make a difference in about every games since they are playing togheter, but there's still some major issues, what will be more evident in the upcoming games.. You are pretty naive to believe Gainey has adressed all the probs of this team and that we will surprise everyone in playoffs, as I said the last 2 games have been smokescreen, we won against one of the worst actual team in the NHL and agaisnt an AHL team the other night.. Yes this team has been playing better for 3-4 games in a row but we all know about their tendency to come back at their bad habits, never forget it my friend, this team is unconsistent and nothing let me believe thats something that will be adresses for good..
Yes, I think most of the issues have been fixed with the firing of Carbo for this simple reason... we proved last season how well this team can play WHEN IT WANTS TO. We proved that we have the talent to compete and be consistent. All this team needs is confidence and hard work, they have the system and the ears of the coach now - the rest will take care of itself. And you can mark THOSE words.

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04-03-2009, 06:30 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
lol do you seriously think the inconsistency issue with this team is now part of the past? Watch the next few games and repeat me what you just said without laughing.. Gainey took a good decision putting his vets on the same line, something I myself suggested on this board before it happens, our vets took themself in hands and were able to make a difference in about every games since they are playing togheter, but there's still some major issues, what will be more evident in the upcoming games.. You are pretty naive to believe Gainey has adressed all the probs of this team and that we will surprise everyone in playoffs, as I said the last 2 games have been smokescreen, we won against one of the worst actual team in the NHL and agaisnt an AHL team the other night.. Yes this team has been playing better for 3-4 games in a row but we all know about their tendency to come back at their bad habits, never forget it my friend, this team is unconsistent and nothing let me believe thats something that will be adresses for good..
That AHL team you're talking about shutout the Red Wings 2-0 two weeks ago and lost to the Flyers, Canes and Bruins by 1 goal. The same NYI team who beat the Habs at home 3 weeks ago, outshotting them 39-26. Or perhaps you were talking about the Thrashers, who are 10-3 in their last 13 games?

Firing Carbo might not have solved all the problems, you're right about that. We still need a big center (Lang) and we still need a 2nd line that produces. But at least Gainey uses his players like they're supposed to be and he takes advantage of the Habs speed by forechecking with 2 guys in a 2-1-2 system instead of Carbo's mother****ing 1-2-2 trap. And it works, they're playing as a team again. Higgins hasn't been that good in a looong time, the 1st line is on fire, Komo's a lot better than he used to be and so are the goalies. Is the parade back on? Nope, but at least we'll make the playoffs and they'll put up a fight.

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04-03-2009, 06:53 PM
  #160
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It's kind of a funny thing. I think Carbo (like several other coaches) is the kind of guy who does well with a good team without any adversity. When things get tough the coaches can go in two directions. They make lots of changes or do nothing at all.

Was Carbo the problem? I think partly yes. Was he part of the solution? Unfortunately no.

I still like the guy. I'm sure a lot of the players do too. Unfortunately his way of doing things just didn't fly when adversity hit. At that time more than ever you need to have everybody working on the same page. That did not appear to be happening. The tension and lack of confidence was so obvious it was scary

Are we out of the woods yet? Definitely not. Are they playing together and building some confidence now? I think so

How well we compete over the last few games will tell the story

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04-03-2009, 06:55 PM
  #161
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You're quick at pointing to Begin, but you're forgetting Kostopoulos, Lapierre and Pacioretty, all character guys who he was playing a fair bit. Begin was starting to get over the hill and he's not getting much ice time in Dallas either and that coming from a fan of his.

I'm talking about true grit with skills and leadership here. Watch Carbonneau have a great career as a head coach...
Where the hell did you get Pacioretty being a character guy.He is in his first half season and no one has ever mentioned character .

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04-03-2009, 07:25 PM
  #162
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That AHL team you're talking about shutout the Red Wings 2-0 two weeks ago and lost to the Flyers, Canes and Bruins by 1 goal. The same NYI team who beat the Habs at home 3 weeks ago, outshotting them 39-26. Or perhaps you were talking about the Thrashers, who are 10-3 in their last 13 games?

Firing Carbo might not have solved all the problems, you're right about that. We still need a big center (Lang) and we still need a 2nd line that produces. But at least Gainey uses his players like they're supposed to be and he takes advantage of the Habs speed by forechecking with 2 guys in a 2-1-2 system instead of Carbo's mother****ing 1-2-2 trap. And it works, they're playing as a team again. Higgins hasn't been that good in a looong time, the 1st line is on fire, Komo's a lot better than he used to be and so are the goalies. Is the parade back on? Nope, but at least we'll make the playoffs and they'll put up a fight.
Did you really see them forechecking hard with 2 guys in the last 2 games?? Come on.. They did it for some games but it didnt last very long.. They came back playing their erratic "trap" awaiting their opponents in the neutral zone.. It worked against a young and unexperimented team playing his worst hockey of the season and it worked the other night against a team filled of AHLers..

Islanders played without their best defenseman and without their best foward the other night, (Streit and Okposo) McCammond, a tough guy to play against was also missing, so this team was already missing skills, losing their Markov, their Tanguay and their Lapierre was even more desastrous since they were already short in term of quality depth.. While I agree that the Islanders all surprised us @ MTL and that they offered a pretty strong opposition, last night was quite a different story, this team had 0 drive, 0 chimestry, no soul, they were ready to be beat, it has nothing to do with the structured and dedicated team we saw @ MTL..

You could think that I wish our team some trouble but thats not the case, I want them to be ready to compete at a high level for the rest of the season cause we will have to be at our best to make the playoffs, I just feel we could hit a wall if the guys arent mentally ready individually and collectively for that big challenge coming up... Toronto will do everything they can to make our way tougher, in their house... Ottawa as well... against the Rags it will be a do or die game for both teams.. @Boston, nothing more to add... finally Pittsburg, quite transformed since the deadline, they are looking unbatable at the moment.. I hope my feeling is wrong but I didnt like what I saw in our last 2 games, yeah even despite 2 wins..


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04-03-2009, 07:39 PM
  #163
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Did you really see them forechecking hard with 2 guys in the last 2 games?? Come on.. They did it for some games but it didnt last very long.. They came back playing their erratic "trap" awaiting their opponents in the neutral zone.. It worked against a young and unexperimented team playing his worst hockey of the season and it worked the other night against a team filled of AHLers..

Islanders played without their best defenseman and without their best foward the other night, (Streit and Okposo) McCammond, a tough guy to play against was also missing, so this team was already missing skills, losing their Markov, their Tanguay and their Lapierre was even more desastrous since they were already short in term of quality depth.. While I agree that the Islanders all surprised us @ MTL and that they offered a pretty strong opposition, last night was quite a different story, this team had 0 drive, 0 chimestry, no soul, they were ready to be beat, it has nothing to do with the structured and dedicated team we saw @ MTL..

You could think that I wish our team some trouble but thats not the case, I want them to be ready to compete at a high level for the rest of the season cause we will have to be at our best to make the playoffs, I just feel we could hit a wall if the guys arent mentally ready individually and collectively for that big challenge coming up... @Totonto Ottawa @Rangers @Boston Pittsburg... I hope my feeling is wrong but I didnt like what I saw in our last 2 games, yeah even despite 2 wins..
I don't expect Gainey to change everything in a week or two.

The fact remains that he has cobbled together some dependable lines with players earlier deemed undependable. That is a huge change because without those guys playing their games we were going nowhere fast.

Without those basic improvements I had no sense of this team being competitive at all. That is not the same now.

As for the weaknesses you discussed, they need to be addressed. But it is easier to deal with now under present circumstances. It's the difference between trying to deal with a couple of issues amidst a host of crises versus settling those issues in a calmer environment. At least now it can be worked on

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04-03-2009, 08:52 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by BadHabit View Post
Actually, it should be clear to everyone now that the problem WAS the coach. The Habs are playing their best hockey since November in my opinion - the first line is dynamite (you're loving Kovy's performances I'm sure), and everyone else is giving their all out there. They look like a renewed team over the last 6 games, defensive play is way better, PP is working, and the goalies have their confidence back. We're finally playing as a TEAM, and I no longer have to sit and watch line 4 on the ice with 2 mins left in the game when we need a goal. I no longer have to see Kosto on the top line. etc. Once the second line gets going (look at the injuries they have had, how many games has Pleks and the Kosty brothers had together? 1? 2?) we'll be all good.

You want heart? The Habs are showing it to you now because they BELIEVE in their new coach. It took awhile for them to adjust, but I knew it would. You can't just change from one system to another and know what is expected of you immediately. These things take time.

The Habs are back baby, and even if they don't go that far I'll be happy knowing that they at least left it all on the ice. We all should be.
Well said. We have now have specific roles for every player on the ice. When you hit rough times, the best thing to do is simplify. We've loaded our top line, now have dedicated penalty killers, and dedicated attackers, grit lines, and defensive lines. Not to mention that we actually shorten our bench now when we're in need of a goal.

I was always mistified when Koivu, Kovalev, Plekanec and Tanguay were on the PK when we have Lapierre, Higgins, Kostopolous, Metropolit and previously Begin who were all made to kill penalties. Gainey's approach keeps our guys fresher and lets them spend more minutes in areas that they excel.

Also worth noting is Gainey's ability to communicate with the players and the media calmly to settle things down. Man management is so key in business and you have to appreciate that each employee needs to be handled in a particular way. Some excel through giving space, others through motivation, others through keeping them on their toes. That's something that Gainey is great at. If we continue the way we have in the last 5 games, I'd suggest bringing Lever in as an assistant next season but leaving Gainey behind the bench. His demeanor is so key for us.


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04-03-2009, 10:40 PM
  #165
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Actually, it should be clear to everyone now that the problem WAS the coach. The Habs are playing their best hockey since November in my opinion - the first line is dynamite (you're loving Kovy's performances I'm sure), and everyone else is giving their all out there. They look like a renewed team over the last 6 games, defensive play is way better, PP is working, and the goalies have their confidence back. We're finally playing as a TEAM, and I no longer have to sit and watch line 4 on the ice with 2 mins left in the game when we need a goal. I no longer have to see Kosto on the top line. etc. Once the second line gets going (look at the injuries they have had, how many games has Pleks and the Kosty brothers had together? 1? 2?) we'll be all good.

You want heart? The Habs are showing it to you now because they BELIEVE in their new coach. It took awhile for them to adjust, but I knew it would. You can't just change from one system to another and know what is expected of you immediately. These things take time.

The Habs are back baby, and even if they don't go that far I'll be happy knowing that they at least left it all on the ice. We all should be.
Let's face the facts... we've had a very disappointing home stand in March after Carbo was let go. I truly believe that the team would have turned things around WITH Carbonneau, perhaps even sooner than this. Cudos to the team to pick their socks, Kovalev included, but Carbo wasn't the problem. As Kovalev goes, so does the team... unfortunately.

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04-03-2009, 11:11 PM
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Let's face the facts... we've had a very disappointing home stand in March after Carbo was let go. I truly believe that the team would have turned things around WITH Carbonneau, perhaps even sooner than this. Cudos to the team to pick their socks, Kovalev included, but Carbo wasn't the problem. As Kovalev goes, so does the team... unfortunately.
It baffles the mind how you still think Carbonneau was never the problem and that Kovalev has always been.

We'd be leading the division with a competent coach all year.

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04-03-2009, 11:21 PM
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I dont know but last game, the 4 lines played similar time..

1st line played 12 minutes..

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04-03-2009, 11:52 PM
  #168
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It baffles the mind how you still think Carbonneau was never the problem and that Kovalev has always been.

We'd be leading the division with a competent coach all year.
We led the conference last year with Carbonneau and a motivated Kovalev, that's why! The difference this year? A not so motivated Kovalev. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make reality go away.

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04-04-2009, 12:00 AM
  #169
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I dont know but last game, the 4 lines played similar time..

1st line played 12 minutes..
Because the game was already over by the second period and Gainey wanted to show respect to the opponent. That's why, after Komi's goal, he didn't put Koivu's line on at the beginning of PPs.

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04-04-2009, 12:00 AM
  #170
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We led the conference last year with Carbonneau and a motivated Kovalev, that's why! The difference this year? A not so motivated Kovalev. Hiding your head in the sand doesn't make reality go away.
Congratulations. You realize Carbonneau never had a clue on how to manage his own talent. And that goes just as much for Tanguay than for Kovalev. Tried and tried to make them play a system made for grinders and ended up messing with their heads.
Instead of going and talking with them about their roles on the team like Gainey did. And they're on fire since then. So whichever way you choose, it ends up coming back on Carbo either way.

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04-04-2009, 12:09 AM
  #171
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Carbo was the problem, thats it, thats all, ..he inherited a GREATLY talented team last year that they themselvesmade it to 1st in the conference, and carbo was just riding the horse, he didnt really do anything, and you could tell they didnt respect him anyways, this year was just the final straw

where as kovalev, has led our team in scoring everytime we make the playoffs, and his 84 point year wasnt too shabby for the first time a hab player hit 80 points in TEN FREAKIN YEARS

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04-04-2009, 12:59 AM
  #172
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Let's face the facts... we've had a very disappointing home stand in March after Carbo was let go. I truly believe that the team would have turned things around WITH Carbonneau, perhaps even sooner than this. Cudos to the team to pick their socks, Kovalev included, but Carbo wasn't the problem. As Kovalev goes, so does the team... unfortunately.
False.

The players didnt want to play for him. He was disliked by the vast majority of his team, from the 1st liners to the 4th liners... He was a poor coach. I'm anxious to se how he will do with another team, pretty sure he'll suck.

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04-04-2009, 01:11 AM
  #173
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The Wild are a perfect fit for Carbonneau with all their grinders his system will work but they will still go nowhere because of the lack of talented players.

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Old
04-04-2009, 10:05 AM
  #174
RushDP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHabsEra View Post
Did you really see them forechecking hard with 2 guys in the last 2 games?? Come on.. They did it for some games but it didnt last very long.. They came back playing their erratic "trap" awaiting their opponents in the neutral zone.. It worked against a young and unexperimented team playing his worst hockey of the season and it worked the other night against a team filled of AHLers..

Islanders played without their best defenseman and without their best foward the other night, (Streit and Okposo) McCammond, a tough guy to play against was also missing, so this team was already missing skills, losing their Markov, their Tanguay and their Lapierre was even more desastrous since they were already short in term of quality depth.. While I agree that the Islanders all surprised us @ MTL and that they offered a pretty strong opposition, last night was quite a different story, this team had 0 drive, 0 chimestry, no soul, they were ready to be beat, it has nothing to do with the structured and dedicated team we saw @ MTL..

You could think that I wish our team some trouble but thats not the case, I want them to be ready to compete at a high level for the rest of the season cause we will have to be at our best to make the playoffs, I just feel we could hit a wall if the guys arent mentally ready individually and collectively for that big challenge coming up... Toronto will do everything they can to make our way tougher, in their house... Ottawa as well... against the Rags it will be a do or die game for both teams.. @Boston, nothing more to add... finally Pittsburg, quite transformed since the deadline, they are looking unbatable at the moment.. I hope my feeling is wrong but I didnt like what I saw in our last 2 games, yeah even despite 2 wins..
The problem with your analysis is that you ignore steady progression and all the little things that are working and being corrected. This is a work in progress not a fix everything in one day type scenario where Gainey makes a moving speech and we peel off 10 straight wins.

I'm sure BG prepares the team for each game and defines what he wants from each player. Not through the media like the previous coach but personally one on one with complete clarity. I didn't like the odd man rushes I saw against the islanders but I realize that the shot totals are down, our goalies are more confident, our D looks so much better and our forwards are clicking on 3 of 4 lines. With the same attention paid to the second line by BG I am certain it will turn around for them as well.

As for our few remaining games, our competition is tough but we have confidence and the team seems united on the bench. Little things like Lappy tapping Koivu's glove when he missed a pass he should have received and just generally more talking to each other is a great sign. Sorry but I can't share your pessimism because I see too many things turning around, just in time to make a run and create a momentum into the playoffs.

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Old
04-04-2009, 10:26 AM
  #175
lxzred
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This thread makes me LOL

IMO - anyone who doesn't see the improvement in this team is either a blind hater or just plain and simply blind.

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