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Old
04-05-2009, 07:38 AM
  #26
zenator
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counter offer:

Chris Phillips + 2010 1st round pick + 2009 2nd round pick

for

Luke Schenn + 2009 3rd round pick



This deal would never be done by the Leafs, just as the Sens would never do the first deal.

It makes no sense to trade 6-7 years of a very promising youngster for 2 years of the older guy.

These deals would make sense IF the Leafs/Sens were Boston: in immediate cup contention. It would be like a Nieuwendyk - Iginla trade.

Schenn is obviously more proven than Karlsson, but given the TSN 7th rank, Karlsson is projected to be as good offensively as Schenn is defensively.

Also, Kaberle > Phillips

That's why the Sens give 2 draft picks, while the Leafs only gave a 2nd rounder in their deal.

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Old
04-05-2009, 07:47 AM
  #27
grabo84
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It wasn't an unfair deal, perhaps just not suited to Ottawa's team needs.

We'll see what Murray does though, he hasn't been afraid to deal picks so far this year. I think he wants to do a Flyers rebuild, and get back into the playoffs next year. We'll see what happens this summer anyways.

Edit: Zenator1, the difference between Ottawa and Toronto is that Ottawa has their core players already locked into contracts. Ottawa can't go into a three or four year rebuilding process unless they give up on that core. Toronto isn't in the same boat, so saying that they're both rebuilding teams who won't trade youth isn't very accurate.

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Old
04-05-2009, 08:58 AM
  #28
Jackie Treehorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
It wasn't an unfair deal, perhaps just not suited to Ottawa's team needs.

We'll see what Murray does though, he hasn't been afraid to deal picks so far this year. I think he wants to do a Flyers rebuild, and get back into the playoffs next year. We'll see what happens this summer anyways.

Edit: Zenator1, the difference between Ottawa and Toronto is that Ottawa has their core players already locked into contracts. Ottawa can't go into a three or four year rebuilding process unless they give up on that core. Toronto isn't in the same boat, so saying that they're both rebuilding teams who won't trade youth isn't very accurate.
that's the reason why Ottawa needs to hang on to guys like Karlsson and their 1st rounder this year. Because they have their core locked up they need some cheap help to fill out the roster.

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Old
04-05-2009, 09:03 AM
  #29
grabo84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayjay54 View Post
that's the reason why Ottawa needs to hang on to guys like Karlsson and their 1st rounder this year. Because they have their core locked up they need some cheap help to fill out the roster.
Could very well be. Like I said, it depends how quick they expect this team to turn around.

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Old
04-05-2009, 09:04 AM
  #30
AlMo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Canadian View Post
I know a trade between arch rivals this large would be slim but anyways..

(DRAFT DAY)

To Tor:

Karlsson
1st 09 ( 8-10 range)


To OTT:

Kaberle
2nd/3rd


It gets Ottawa the puck moving defensemen they need and Toronto 2 nice prospects. Im thinking that Ottawa wants Karlsson to become their Kaberle.

Anyways, Flame Away.
The Sens are not doing this......no way, now how!

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Old
04-05-2009, 11:48 AM
  #31
Dick Whitman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
It wasn't an unfair deal, perhaps just not suited to Ottawa's team needs.

We'll see what Murray does though, he hasn't been afraid to deal picks so far this year. I think he wants to do a Flyers rebuild, and get back into the playoffs next year. We'll see what happens this summer anyways.

Edit: Zenator1, the difference between Ottawa and Toronto is that Ottawa has their core players already locked into contracts. Ottawa can't go into a three or four year rebuilding process unless they give up on that core. Toronto isn't in the same boat, so saying that they're both rebuilding teams who won't trade youth isn't very accurate.
It is actually a very unfair deal. Would you trade Schenn and your first for Andrei MArkov?

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Old
04-05-2009, 11:50 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
It wasn't an unfair deal, perhaps just not suited to Ottawa's team needs.

We'll see what Murray does though, he hasn't been afraid to deal picks so far this year. I think he wants to do a Flyers rebuild, and get back into the playoffs next year. We'll see what happens this summer anyways.

Edit: Zenator1, the difference between Ottawa and Toronto is that Ottawa has their core players already locked into contracts. Ottawa can't go into a three or four year rebuilding process unless they give up on that core. Toronto isn't in the same boat, so saying that they're both rebuilding teams who won't trade youth isn't very accurate.
I definitely agree on the first part. Kaberle could return a first and a good prospect, and while I don't believe that pick will be top-10, the biggest issue of this deal is that it doesn't work for these two teams.

You're also right in that Murray looks to going after a Flyers re-tool on the fly. I hope that he doesn't try and mortgage our future to get there though. I don't mind a late first for an very cheap puck mover with Campoli, but I'd draw the line at this deal.

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Old
04-05-2009, 11:54 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
It is actually a very unfair deal. Would you trade Schenn and your first for Andrei MArkov?
Like I said, it depends on a team's needs. If the Leafs had a solid core (like the sens) and thought they could be a playoff team very quickly, it would make a lot of sense to trade a young D like Schenn and a 1st for a top defenceman like Markov.

Any sens fans that want to see a wholesale rebuild, or a youth movement, will obviously not like this deal. I'm just saying, it's not at all lopsided in terms of value, but it might not suit team needs. I dont know what Murray is thinking, so who knows where he sees this team going.

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Old
04-05-2009, 12:00 PM
  #34
Dick Whitman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Like I said, it depends on a team's needs. If the Leafs had a solid core (like the sens) and thought they could be a playoff team very quickly, it would make a lot of sense to trade a young D like Schenn and a 1st for a top defenceman like Markov.

Any sens fans that want to see a wholesale rebuild, or a youth movement, will obviously not like this deal. I'm just saying, it's not at all lopsided in terms of value, but it might not suit team needs. I dont know what Murray is thinking, so who knows where he sees this team going.

I think the problem with this deal is the cost and not the vision of the team. We're talking about a top 10 pick (most likely top 7 or 8) in an extremely deep draft that could very well yield a first line player and an excellent young dman who was a top dman at the showcase junior tournament and considered to be the missing link for this team and a player with a lot of potential.

Perhaps if the pick was more of a mid-range 15-20 pick and the prospect was something we had an excess of, this deal would make sense. But the ideal of potentially trading away 2 kaberles (Karlsson and OEL for example) for 2 years of a seemingly declining Kaberle just doesn't seem worth it in any scenario, especially when there are equal or better options out there that would cost less.

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Old
04-05-2009, 12:00 PM
  #35
Nazem Gretzky
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I am not sure that Kaberle is going anywhere to be honest.

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Old
04-05-2009, 12:09 PM
  #36
grabo84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
I think the problem with this deal is the cost and not the vision of the team. We're talking about a top 10 pick (most likely top 7 or 8) in an extremely deep draft that could very well yield a first line player and an excellent young dman who was a top dman at the showcase junior tournament and considered to be the missing link for this team and a player with a lot of potential.

Perhaps if the pick was more of a mid-range 15-20 pick and the prospect was something we had an excess of, this deal would make sense. But the ideal of potentially trading away 2 kaberles (Karlsson and OEL for example) for 2 years of a seemingly declining Kaberle just doesn't seem worth it in any scenario, especially when there are equal or better options out there that would cost less.
Well, Ottawa's problem is that they don't have a lot of prospect depth. That really makes a deal like this tough for them to pull off. A team like LA can pull off a deal like this without really feeling a hit on their pipeline. But like I said, that's more to do with team needs and situation than value.

So far as value goes, Toronto was still adding a second round pick, so I figured that evened out the value of the pick a bit.

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Old
04-05-2009, 12:10 PM
  #37
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I don't think that there's anyway that Ottawa does this. Also it might save time to make all future Kaberle trades like this:

You Get:
Kaberle

Leafs Get:
Your best prospect
1st round pick


That way you could just sub in teams and players, you know like JVR, Cory Schneider, Hodgson etc. That way teams could turn down the trade ahead of time

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Old
04-05-2009, 12:38 PM
  #38
Asquaredx2
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The Ottawa organization is in love with Karlsson. They're not dealing him AND a top-10 pick for Kaberle.

Frankly, I don't think they'd deal either.

So, pass.

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Old
04-05-2009, 12:54 PM
  #39
JackBauer
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the rough equivalent would be the leafs trading Luke Schenn to us for Anton Volchenkov or Chris Phillips. i know i might get flamed because phillips isn't a "star" like kaberle.

i don't think schenn is as good as phillips right now, but he projects to be as good in a couple of years, if not better. but there's no point to the leafs trading schenn now, because his upside is high.

one of ottawa's biggest weaknesses has been lack of secondary scoring and the pick put them in a position to draft someone who can help with that. let alone we are hoping karlsson will turn into a kaberle type player in a couple of years. right now, all signs point to that being very likely.

the ottawa organization is very high on karlsson, and as good as kaberle is, he's not worth the 1st and karlsson to us.

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Old
04-05-2009, 01:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Canadian View Post
I know a trade between arch rivals this large would be slim but anyways..

(DRAFT DAY)

To Tor:

Karlsson
1st 09 ( 8-10 range)


To OTT:

Kaberle
2nd/3rd


It gets Ottawa the puck moving defensemen they need and Toronto 2 nice prospects. Im thinking that Ottawa wants Karlsson to become their Kaberle.

Anyways, Flame Away.
Incredibly unrealistic. Zero chance that Burke does this, zero chance that Murray does this. Poor trade for both sides...Burke could squeeze more out of Kaberle than one prospect (albeit a fairly good one) and a 1st (again albeit a 1st pick in a good spot). Although if it DID happen, it would probably be to trade both our first and Ottawa's first to TB or NYI to try and get the first or second overall.

As the NYI, would you rather have the #1 overall or two picks in the 5-10 range?

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Old
04-05-2009, 01:10 PM
  #41
grabo84
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Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
the rough equivalent would be the leafs trading Luke Schenn to us for Anton Volchenkov or Chris Phillips. i know i might get flamed because phillips isn't a "star" like kaberle.
This doesn't make much sense. Kaberle is much, much more valuable than either Phillips or Volchenkov, and is signed to a bargain contract. The Leafs are in a much deeper rebuild than the Sens, and need to build around young players - the sens have the luxury of an established young core.

Add to that the fact Schenn is a much higher rated prospect than Karlsson, and is playing in the NHL right now. He's arguably played better than either of those guys this year. That's really a bad example.

Quote:
the ottawa organization is very high on karlsson, and as good as kaberle is, he's not worth the 1st and karlsson to us.
This makes a lot of sense though, and its probably true.

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Old
04-05-2009, 01:29 PM
  #42
Hale The Villain
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Kaberle is good, but I think we want to hold on to Karlsson and our first more

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Old
04-05-2009, 05:46 PM
  #43
Asquaredx2
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Originally Posted by Ace88 View Post
Incredibly unrealistic. Zero chance that Burke does this, zero chance that Murray does this. Poor trade for both sides...Burke could squeeze more out of Kaberle than one prospect (albeit a fairly good one) and a 1st (again albeit a 1st pick in a good spot). Although if it DID happen, it would probably be to trade both our first and Ottawa's first to TB or NYI to try and get the first or second overall.

As the NYI, would you rather have the #1 overall or two picks in the 5-10 range?
You think you can get more for Kaberle than Erik Karlsson and the 8th over-all pick?

Tomas "31 points, -14, 29 hits this year, 31 year old" Kaberle?

So to reverse this, what would Jason Spezza get from Toronto? Since obviously Schenn and your 1st isn't enough.

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Old
04-05-2009, 05:53 PM
  #44
grabo84
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
You think you can get more for Kaberle than Erik Karlsson and the 8th over-all pick?

Tomas "31 points, -14, 29 hits this year, 31 year old" Kaberle?

So to reverse this, what would Jason Spezza get from Toronto? Since obviously Schenn and your 1st isn't enough.
The proposal had a 2nd going Ottawa's way as well.

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Old
04-05-2009, 05:57 PM
  #45
iPunch
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Originally Posted by Phantasmagorical View Post
In a couple years Karlsson will be as good as Kaberle.
Thats one hell of a limb you're climbing out on there.

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Old
04-05-2009, 05:57 PM
  #46
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Wow, no way.

I wouldn't do either Karlsson or the 1st rounder for Kaberle...and I like Kaberle a lot. The Sens haven't had this kind of defencive prospect for a long, long time - and with our terrible season are in line for another excellent prospect. Finally the prospect pool is getting better, we simply can't afford to start tearing it apart again - especially in a cap system.

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Old
04-05-2009, 05:58 PM
  #47
Nunymare
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In a couple years Karlsson will be as good as Kaberle.

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Old
04-05-2009, 06:12 PM
  #48
The Fuhr
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If the goal is to win a cup before Alfie the heart of the team retires then ya I'd make this deal.

Alfie is 36 and will be 37 in December.
A PPG play who plays 20 minutes a game in every situation.
Is the Sens inspirational leader.

Does he or the Sens have the time to wait for prospects to develop to take a run at the cup?
You have a guy whose window is closing as an elite player and someone you will not be able to replace when he is gone.

The team will need to rebuild when Alfredsson retires.

If the Sens do not want to try and win a cup with Alfredsson they hold on to the prospect and pick, but if they want to go for it before the best Senator in Ottawas history retires. They make the deal.

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Old
04-05-2009, 06:13 PM
  #49
The Fuhr
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Like I said, it depends on a team's needs. If the Leafs had a solid core (like the sens) and thought they could be a playoff team very quickly, it would make a lot of sense to trade a young D like Schenn and a 1st for a top defenceman like Markov.
I agree with this.

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Old
04-05-2009, 06:23 PM
  #50
grabo84
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Originally Posted by Phantasmagorical View Post
In a couple years Karlsson will be as good as Kaberle.
You guys have to take it easy with the expectations on this kid. It's tough for a defenceman to make an impact in the NHL right after he comes over, so you don't want to set the bar too high for him. There aren't a lot of D who can be top pairing guys in their early twenties, it takes time.

btw, can any Sens fan tell me if he's planning on playing in NA next year?

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