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Tomas Kaberle

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Old
04-06-2009, 09:12 PM
  #51
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
Unfortunately, the Leafs have to get something good if they're going to trade a 4-time allstar.

It wouldn't be done simply to make the Flyers happy. Sorry.





Good one.


This will be short so you'll actually read it. I've said a number of times that the Flyers are NOT ideal trading partners for the Leafs because A) we already have a #1 dman in Timonen so we don't have any urgent need to get one and B) we are so tight to the cap tha the Leafs would almost HAVE to take back significant salary in return. The Leafs will have money to spend this off-season so they could probably get about equal players for about the same price as the ones the Flyers would have to send back to Tor.

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04-06-2009, 09:58 PM
  #52
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I don't really think the Flyers are ideal partners. BB is looking for a C, he may look at the free agent pool but isn't likely to sign anyone long term, or someone that commands more than 6M a year. So if a pretty good C is coming back I think BB will consider making a deal with kaberle

Some guys that I think he should target in free agency are Franzen, and Cammi.

Via trade I would really look at Zajac on the Devils if I was Burke.

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04-06-2009, 10:03 PM
  #53
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Kaberle will become a Lightning in the offseason. Im calling it now. For what, i dont know, but im almost positive he'll be on the lightning next season.

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04-06-2009, 10:25 PM
  #54
phlocky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schennanigans View Post
I don't really think the Flyers are ideal partners. BB is looking for a C, he may look at the free agent pool but isn't likely to sign anyone long term, or someone that commands more than 6M a year. So if a pretty good C is coming back I think BB will consider making a deal with kaberle

Some guys that I think he should target in free agency are Franzen, and Cammi.

Via trade I would really look at Zajac on the Devils if I was Burke.

If you go back to the bottom of page 2 you'll see where we discussed a trade with the Caps. I think it's pretty reasonable return for Kaberle. You get a solid center, a 2nd pairing dman and a #1 pick. Neither player may be elite but both are solid players and the Leafs need that. I don't know how the Caps fans feel about the deal so I can't tell you if it's fair from their POV. I also don't know if they have a center to replace whom they lose and if they don't then that may be a deal breaker (as much as they could use a player like Kabs they CAN'T leave themselves with only 1 viable line).

If Burke was able to make this trade for Kabs then I think the next thing he should do is to make certain he get Boumeester. I'd offer him 35 mil over 5 years, I think that's the best offer he's going to get. The Leafs certainly have the cap space to make some signings/trades to revamp their team asap. Just an FYI, only Gagne Knuble, Richards, Carter, Jones and Nittimaki remain on the Flyers opening day roster from just 2 years ago when they finished dead last in the league. Of all the rest only Giroux was a prospect already in our system at that time. You have a lot of picks and you don't have to use them all to draft players. You can trade some to get players like Scotty Upshall. Burke can make some lateral moves where he trades one player for a player of about equal ability but fits the mold he wants for the team better (like after we got Timonen we didn't "need" Pitkanen any more so we traded our problem child Pitkanen for another problem child Lupul, both are doing much better in new environments). I don't think the Leafs are that far away from being competative again. I DO think that Burke will remake this team in his image very quickly and that you will likely see another 2 or 3 players moved before FA opens up. Burke is one of the best GM's out there and I think he'll be very active in turning the Leafs around quickly. I'd actually be very excited as a Leafs fan right now (honestly, they ARE my 2nd favorite team, I can't understand all the hate for the Leafs). I know everyone wants to speculate because I guess it gives them some comfort that the future looks better than the present but you guys are just going to have to trust that Burke knows what he is doing. I mena just look as what he did out west with a team that tied one hand behind his back. He can to Tor because he knew he wouldn't have to fight with one financial hand tied behind his back anymore. Just wait, he's going to do right by the Leafs and he's going to bring in the "right" kind of players. The ones who aren't commited won't sniff the Leafs roster for long, he'll get rid of them. He'll bring in players who are hungry and dedicated. I personally htink he's probably the best GM out there right now.

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04-06-2009, 10:37 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schennanigans View Post
I don't really think the Flyers are ideal partners.
No they certainly are not.

The ideal team is one that lacks a Kaberle but has a hard time attracting free agents and/or doesn't have the time/patience to draft and develope their own. It seems many teams fans have their hearts set on Bouwmeester but theres only one.

Burkes saving grace is that Kaberle is on a good contract and therefore easy to justify keeping. Brian didn't put a gun to his own head like the silver fool did with the McCabe debacle.

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04-06-2009, 11:04 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by leaflover View Post
No they certainly are not.

The ideal team is one that lacks a Kaberle but has a hard time attracting free agents and/or doesn't have the time/patience to draft and develope their own. It seems many teams fans have their hearts set on Bouwmeester but theres only one.

Burkes saving grace is that Kaberle is on a good contract and therefore easy to justify keeping. Brian didn't put a gun to his own head like the silver fool did with the McCabe debacle.
If the Leafs DON'T get a deal that knocks their socks off is it really so terrible of a thing to just keep Kaberle??? I don't think so.

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04-06-2009, 11:12 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
If the Leafs DON'T get a deal that knocks their socks off is it really so terrible of a thing to just keep Kaberle??? I don't think so.
No not at all. There is however a fairly high percentage of leaf fans that either wanted or expected a complete obliteration of the veterans and nothing else will do. In other words criticism is imminent, though the same is true of all fanbases.

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04-06-2009, 11:31 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by AlMo View Post
No they aren't. 4.25 million dollar all star dmen, in the prime of their career, aren't given away for free.

Now if you were to say those teams wouldn't be interested is one thing, but to say it's too much is just false.
What exactly does the phrase "all star" mean? So, he has played in the all star game. Big deal. I've seen a lot of so-so players from J. Modry to Scott Lachance player in the All star game. Do we want to label those guys "all stars?"

To me, all star means, NHL end-of-the-season All Star team. That makes you among the 4 best dman in the league that season and is quite an accomplishment - an accomplishment Kaberle has never achieved, btw.

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04-07-2009, 12:05 AM
  #59
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Much has been said about Tomas Kaberle in the many threads that have popped up on HF over the last few months. Many have said that his value is equal to a 1st rndr + top prospect (such as 1st + Bergfors). Others have said that his value is equal to a 1st rndr + mid level prospect + solid young NHLer (such as 1st + Kevin Marshall + Matt Carle / Joffrey Lupul).

Now, I don't pretend to know what fair value would be as a return for a player of Tomas Kaberle's abilities. All I can realistically hope for is that, in the event that TK does get traded, the return(s) will be eminently useful in helping the Leafs get better either next season or the season after that.

I understand that should TK be traded, the Leafs will likely have to take back some sort of contract, which is fine by me. It's all part of the give-and-take of a trade. Now that the Leafs have committed themselves to a re-build (however long it ends up taking), I just want it to be done correctly. If it means trading TK, then so be it. I'm sure that Brian Burke has a pretty good handle on the situation and will get the Leafs the best deals possible, not only for TK but for all the other players who may find themselves out the door during this summer's off-season. Should any of my favorite Leaf players get moved out, I will likely get miffed about it, but I will likely learn to love the new arrivals, provided they play reasonably well.


Last edited by EucaLEAFtys: 04-07-2009 at 06:20 AM.
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Old
04-07-2009, 05:24 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
If the Leafs DON'T get a deal that knocks their socks off is it really so terrible of a thing to just keep Kaberle??? I don't think so.
What would be the point of keeping him? His game is peaking right now, and he is too old to still be around for the glory years when (if) this team actually does rebuild properly. I think the Leafs should trade him to get a couple building blocks for the future, as long as the deal has AT MINIMUM a 1st Rounder in 2009 or 2010, and a decent prospect/youngster.

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04-07-2009, 07:27 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
What exactly does the phrase "all star" mean? So, he has played in the all star game. Big deal. I've seen a lot of so-so players from J. Modry to Scott Lachance player in the All star game. Do we want to label those guys "all stars?"

To me, all star means, NHL end-of-the-season All Star team. That makes you among the 4 best dman in the league that season and is quite an accomplishment - an accomplishment Kaberle has never achieved, btw.
Yeah, well those "accomplishments" are severely flawed in the way they are chosen. But anyways, no he's not a top 4 dman, I don't even think he's top 10 or even top 15. He is largely overrated by the Leaf fanbase. His numbers are dipping every single year, and it seems his defensive capabilities are dipping as well, which is the most important aspect. However, he should garner quite a return considering his hype and contract.

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04-07-2009, 11:12 AM
  #62
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What about Kaberle for Tampa or LA's 1st rounder this year straight up?

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04-07-2009, 11:17 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by audfroid View Post
What about Kaberle for Tampa or LA's 1st rounder this year straight up?
What about Mark Streit for Toronto's pick straight up?

That is about on par with what you are proposing. How does that sound to you?

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04-07-2009, 11:18 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by KewlBum View Post
Yeah, well those "accomplishments" are severely flawed in the way they are chosen. But anyways, no he's not a top 4 dman, I don't even think he's top 10 or even top 15. He is largely overrated by the Leaf fanbase. His numbers are dipping every single year, and it seems his defensive capabilities are dipping as well, which is the most important aspect. However, he should garner quite a return considering his hype and contract.
He certainly isn't a top 10 dman and he might not even bet top 15. But, he is still an excellent playmaker and I think he can return to form defensively. And, given his contract, he probably does have good market value. Maybe not what some Leaf fans suggest, but decent value.

Either way, I never liked the way the term "all star" gets bandied around here. Getting an invite to an all star game, or even multiple all star games, doesn't make you elite.

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04-07-2009, 11:26 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
To me, all star means, NHL end-of-the-season All Star team. That makes you among the 4 best dman in the league that season and is quite an accomplishment - an accomplishment Kaberle has never achieved, btw.
I don't know, I guess that depends how much faith you have in the Professional Hockey Writer's Association. At least GM's are the ones voting in the All-Star game roster (outside the starting line-up, obviously). The end of year roster is obviously a smaller list though, so it's more of an honour. Still, it's just a year to year honour, so a defenceman like McCabe or Campbell can make it on the list by having one great year, or being more hyped among sportswriters than other candidates. It doesn't really reward consistent excellence, unless a player is consistently the best in the NHL, like Lidstrom or Niedermayer.

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04-07-2009, 11:29 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
What about Mark Streit for Toronto's pick straight up?

That is about on par with what you are proposing. How does that sound to you?
Well, LA may very well consider shopping their pick, so it might not be that crazy an idea. I think Pronger is a more likely target for them though. Tampa doesn't make much sense.

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04-07-2009, 11:36 AM
  #67
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Well, LA may very well consider shopping their pick, so it might not be that crazy an idea. I think Pronger is a more likely target for them though. Tampa doesn't make much sense.

Following the Kings as closely as I do (I work about 10 minutes from the Staples center), I don't think there is any chance of them making that kind of move. Lombardi has got as clear as mandate as any GM in the league and total control. The Kings are also drawing pretty well and are in no rush in their development.

If they did make a move, it would be closer to the kind of deals the BJs have made over the years - trading a pick for a youngish vet who can step in and stay under contract for years.

Put simply, the Leafs have no chance whatsoever of getting that pick without putting prime young assets (i.e., Schenn) on the table.

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04-07-2009, 12:40 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Schennanigans View Post
I don't really think the Flyers are ideal partners. BB is looking for a C, he may look at the free agent pool but isn't likely to sign anyone long term, or someone that commands more than 6M a year. So if a pretty good C is coming back I think BB will consider making a deal with kaberle

Some guys that I think he should target in free agency are Franzen, and Cammi.

Via trade I would really look at Zajac on the Devils if I was Burke.

I wonder how Bruins fans feel about dealing Marc Savard for Kaberle. Maybe if Boston throws in a draft pick too? What is the value of the 29th pick overall? Is it worth Tomas Kaberle for one more season than we would have Savard?

Savard would give the Leafs an excellent first line center. However, he is only signed for next year at a 5 million cap number. It would fit under your qualification of less than $6 million and a short term contract.

I don't really know what Savard's exact value is but the Bruins have depth at the center position and would get Kaberle for 2 seasons at $4.25 million.

For Boston that would be a 750K savings we could use to resign Krejci, Kessel, Hunwick. Kaberle's addition would mean that Ference is on his way out because he has a similar skill set to Hunwick and we don't want 5 left-handed shooting d-men. However, that 750 K savings would only be on the first year and then we'd be gaining salary for 10-11' (the year all hell breaks loose?)

If it's true that "the Leafs don't know how to rebuild" then Savard would seem to make sense. Although he doesn't really make the Leafs "tougher to play against"

Flame away

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04-07-2009, 04:23 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by C77 View Post
I wonder how Bruins fans feel about dealing Marc Savard for Kaberle. Maybe if Boston throws in a draft pick too? What is the value of the 29th pick overall? Is it worth Tomas Kaberle for one more season than we would have Savard?

Savard would give the Leafs an excellent first line center. However, he is only signed for next year at a 5 million cap number. It would fit under your qualification of less than $6 million and a short term contract.

I don't really know what Savard's exact value is but the Bruins have depth at the center position and would get Kaberle for 2 seasons at $4.25 million.

For Boston that would be a 750K savings we could use to resign Krejci, Kessel, Hunwick. Kaberle's addition would mean that Ference is on his way out because he has a similar skill set to Hunwick and we don't want 5 left-handed shooting d-men. However, that 750 K savings would only be on the first year and then we'd be gaining salary for 10-11' (the year all hell breaks loose?)

If it's true that "the Leafs don't know how to rebuild" then Savard would seem to make sense. Although he doesn't really make the Leafs "tougher to play against"

Flame away
I'm pretty sure the Bruins fans would like this deal much more than the Leafs fans. ...Savard doesnt fit into Toronto's get bigger/younger/faster rebuild model.

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04-07-2009, 04:25 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by C77 View Post
I wonder how Bruins fans feel about dealing Marc Savard for Kaberle. Maybe if Boston throws in a draft pick too? What is the value of the 29th pick overall? Is it worth Tomas Kaberle for one more season than we would have Savard?

Savard would give the Leafs an excellent first line center. However, he is only signed for next year at a 5 million cap number. It would fit under your qualification of less than $6 million and a short term contract.

I don't really know what Savard's exact value is but the Bruins have depth at the center position and would get Kaberle for 2 seasons at $4.25 million.

For Boston that would be a 750K savings we could use to resign Krejci, Kessel, Hunwick. Kaberle's addition would mean that Ference is on his way out because he has a similar skill set to Hunwick and we don't want 5 left-handed shooting d-men. However, that 750 K savings would only be on the first year and then we'd be gaining salary for 10-11' (the year all hell breaks loose?)

If it's true that "the Leafs don't know how to rebuild" then Savard would seem to make sense. Although he doesn't really make the Leafs "tougher to play against"

Flame away
As a Leafs fan, I would do that in a minute. Not so sure Boston would want to give up their #1 center yet though. Is Krejci really all that? Or is he just having a good year?

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04-07-2009, 04:25 PM
  #71
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As a Leafs fan, I would do that in a minute. Not so sure Boston would want to give up their #1 center yet though. Is Krejci really all that? Or is he just having a good year?
I'd rather keep Kaberle.

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04-07-2009, 04:30 PM
  #72
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Savard has more value than Kaberle, so I don't see why Boston would trade him straight up. I'd imagine if they want to shred salary there are alot more better methods.

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04-07-2009, 04:52 PM
  #73
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Savard has more value than Kaberle, so I don't see why Boston would trade him straight up. I'd imagine if they want to shred salary there are alot more better methods.
I was thinking that Savard might have more value now than Kaberle because of Kaberle's health situation but I didn't want to offend Leaf fans. Just a few weeks ago I was thinking it would be crazy to trade Savard when I saw someone mention it but now I'm not so sure.

If Savard does have more value than Kaberle there could be additional pieces thrown in by both sides I guess.

Say for instance the Bruins want to trade Ward or Ference. I know Burke was quoted as saying that the Leafs could afford to take on salary in trades.

So maybe it goes something like this (if Savard has more value?)

Bruins get

Kaberle 2 years at 4.25 cap number
Ponikarovsky 1 year at 2.105 cap number

Leafs get

Savard -- 1 year at 5 million
Sturm or Ward -- 2 years at 3.5 million or 1 year at 2.5 million
Bruins 1st 09' #28 or 29

*Sturm has a limited no trade clause I think (not sure if he would want or could be forced to go to Toronto)

Please be kind...I'm new at this sort of thing

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04-07-2009, 04:55 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This will be short so you'll actually read it. I've said a number of times that the Flyers are NOT ideal trading partners for the Leafs because A) we already have a #1 dman in Timonen so we don't have any urgent need to get one and B) we are so tight to the cap tha the Leafs would almost HAVE to take back significant salary in return. The Leafs will have money to spend this off-season so they could probably get about equal players for about the same price as the ones the Flyers would have to send back to Tor.
I can read just fine, thanks. I never said they were ideal trading partners, just commenting on your trade, which was clearly one-sided.

Hope that helps.

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04-07-2009, 04:56 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by C77 View Post
Bruins get

Kaberle
Ponikarovsky

Leafs get

Savard
Sturm or Ward
Bruins 1st 09'
I probably should have elaborated on what I said about your first proposal, I suppose. I'd just be worried that we'd be trading for a guy with only a year left on his contract, who might want to leave for nothing. If we could trade Kaberle for Savard and extend Savard's contract on the same day, I'd be all for it.

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