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04-08-2009, 03:10 PM
  #251
Mike Krushelnyski
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A few euro players signed just this past season to rookie max contracts that have never played in the NHL:

Detroit Red Wings
Ville Leino
Salary: $875,000

Dallas Stars
Fabian Brunnstrom
Salary: $875,000

Pittsberg Penguins
Janne Pesonen
Salary: $875,000

Toronto Maple Leafs
Nikolai Kulemin
Salary: $850,000 (just shy of rookie max)

No guaranteed roster spots for any of them... but the money is there. So why are other organizations willing to sign 'unproven' talent to those contracts if it's that much of an adverse gamble?

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04-08-2009, 03:12 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjlee View Post
Hey, first time on the oilers board, but after reading the interviews with Omark and Harju in Swedish, I thought some pertinent points have been rather lost in the discussion. As has already been mentioned, Omark speaks of the limited interest Edmonton has shown him, and no there is absolutely no mention of money or bonuses or such things, but that Edmonton have spoken of him being small and that their roster is already filled with small players, and that he gets the feeling he doesn't fit with their future plans.
If that's true, then this ship really is driven by the bunch of clueless clowns I thought it was. Should be a hell of a few years of more KLowe and MacT. (It's like communism--it just won't go away.)

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04-08-2009, 03:12 PM
  #253
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Personally I like that we didn't sign.

Why are so many people forgetting that this would have been a gamble, and an emotional signing? We just finished a bad season, if we start scrambling to change things we're bound to make mistakes. This is especially true if we start signing unproven 5'9'' European players.

A year from now if he ended up being a bust, all of you complaining about not getting him signed would be tearing the organization a new one for taking such a big gamble with one of our top 6 roster spots.

It's time to look at the big picture here... sure he has some great youtube clips, but lets not forget what a disaster he could end up being.

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04-08-2009, 03:15 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Krushelnyski View Post
A few euro players signed just this past season to rookie max contracts that have never played in the NHL:

Detroit Red Wings
Ville Leino
Salary: $875,000

Dallas Stars
Fabian Brunnstrom
Salary: $875,000

Pittsberg Penguins
Janne Pesonen
Salary: $875,000

Toronto Maple Leafs
Nikolai Kulemin
Salary: $850,000 (just shy of rookie max)

No guaranteed roster spots for any of them... but the money is there. So why are other organizations willing to sign 'unproven' talent to those contracts if it's that much of an adverse gamble?
and look at where 3 of those 4 teams ended up this year. Dallas and Toronto are absolutely irrelevant and Pittsburgh almost ended up being a bubble team with 2 of the league's 3 top scorers. Detroit has shown that they know how to scout internationally time and time again, have we?

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04-08-2009, 03:15 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBell84 View Post
Personally I like that we didn't sign.

Why are so many people forgetting that this would have been a gamble, and an emotional signing? We just finished a bad season, if we start scrambling to change things we're bound to make mistakes. This is especially true if we start signing unproven 5'9'' European players.

A year from now if he ended up being a bust, all of you complaining about not getting him signed would be tearing the organization a new one for taking such a big gamble with one of our top 6 roster spots.

It's time to look at the big picture here... sure he has some great youtube clips, but lets not forget what a disaster he could end up being.
How is $875,000 that much of a gamble? This guy is one of the most talented players to ever hit the ice in Sweden. If he is a bust... so what? He is $875,000 DOLLARS. Thats like $50,000 more than POULIOT!

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04-08-2009, 03:16 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBell84 View Post
Personally I like that we didn't sign.

Why are so many people forgetting that this would have been a gamble, and an emotional signing? We just finished a bad season, if we start scrambling to change things we're bound to make mistakes. This is especially true if we start signing unproven 5'9'' European players.

A year from now if he ended up being a bust, all of you complaining about not getting him signed would be tearing the organization a new one for taking such a big gamble with one of our top 6 roster spots.

It's time to look at the big picture here... sure he has some great youtube clips, but lets not forget what a disaster he could end up being.
If he ended up being a bust, nothing would be lost but some cash form our billionaires pocket book.

And again, anyone who says Omark is just guy with nice youtube clips doesn't know what he is talking about, if thats what you were implying.

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04-08-2009, 03:17 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Terva View Post
Zetterberg scored four points more than Horcoff the same season. Omark racked up greater numbers than Zetterberg did at the same age. That´s a proof for that Omark has the potential. Then it is up to his employer to give him all the conditions needed to succeed.
It's only proof that it's possible -- "it" being "someone can be a high scorer in the SEL and also be a high scorer in the NHL". It really does not mean a whole lot on the confidence scale overall.

I think 20 games in the AHL or more importantly the NHL will be a much better indicator than even an entire season in the SEL.

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04-08-2009, 03:18 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Krushelnyski View Post
No guaranteed roster spots for any of them... but the money is there. So why are other organizations willing to sign 'unproven' talent to those contracts if it's that much of an adverse gamble?
Can they each have their own reasons, or must they all dance to the same tune?

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04-08-2009, 03:18 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Seachd View Post
If he is considered a defected player, he doesn't have a choice which NHL team he signs with when his KHL contract is up.
he wouldn't become a UFA at some point? i find it hard to believe that we would just hold his rights *forever*

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04-08-2009, 03:18 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terva View Post
Today, 05:38
smackdaddy
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"Yeah, I can see that. And it wouldn't surprise me for this organization to take such a shallow analysis of their prospects. 4th round? And he wants max?"


Today, 05:53
copperandblue
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"Another consideration that I haven't seen touched on yet is the trickle down effect if the Oilers capitulated on Omark's demands and not only paid him the max (which is obviously out of scale for a 4th round pick) but gauranteed him a roster spot on top of it."
Sorry. Swing and a miss.

You said "impossible".

Neither of those posters said it was impossible for a 4th rounder to become a top player.

Rather, I see healthy skepticism about the potential for 4th rounders in general, and justifiably so.

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04-08-2009, 03:19 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Terva View Post
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"Another consideration that I haven't seen touched on yet is the trickle down effect if the Oilers capitulated on Omark's demands and not only paid him the max (which is obviously out of scale for a 4th round pick) but gauranteed him a roster spot on top of it."
No offence but you're out to lunch.

I have no pre-concieved notion what so ever of how good or bad Omark is and where he was drafted doesn't even enter the equation in terms of assessing him as a talent.

All I was saying with my point is that a player needs to be given a spot based on merit, not demand. It's up to the player to prove it in camp against what would be his peers.

My mention of him being a 4th round pick was only in regards to salary. 4th round players simply do not get the same salary that 1st rounders do. It may not seem fair but it is what it is.

Point of interest, Zetterberg averaged 775k a year in his first contract and that was pre-lockout where more than a few teams were tossing money around like it was candy including Detroit.

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04-08-2009, 03:20 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
Of all the things I've read in this rather large thread, this is the one thing that truly angered me:

"Edmonton has said that they have enough small players, that there's nothing wrong with me, but that Im small. That doesnt feel that nice to hear, so it's not just about the money. I want to be in the NHL, not in the AHL."
-Omark

You would've thought the Oilers would have learned from the disaster of their 2003 draft, where they passed on Parise because of these exact same sentiments that they relayed to Omark.

5 years later, and they haven't learned a thing.

IMO the Oilers come across as pack of bumbling idiots. After tantalizing the fanbase with videos of him on their own bloody website, after Kevin Lowe gushing about his talents on HNIC After Hours for a national audience, after Tambellini gushing about him on the radio, now the Oilers fail to sign him after all that buildup??

He may never amount to much, but there's no denying he was one of the few pieces of good news we've had this year on the prospect front. And now he's gone, because the Oilers have this fixation on draft position dictating what a player's potential will be.

If Omark had been a first or 2nd round pick and had the exact same career progression as he's shown so far, there's no doubt in my mind that the Oilers would've signed him, or at the very least offered him the max deal they could under the current CBA...but because he was a 4th round pick, we get the "we have a lot of small guys" speech. Never mind that we have no idea how many of our current <6' tall group will even be on the roster 2 years from now.

Oh well, on to the next circus act.
Thanks KLowe, another brilliant assessment.

Omark is too small.
Bobby Ryan is too big.
Comrie is too rich.
Parise is too little.
Burke is too loud.

Nothing will ever change with this team. What a ****en group of clowns we have running this organization.

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04-08-2009, 03:21 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by awesomo View Post
How is $875,000 that much of a gamble? This guy is one of the most talented players to ever hit the ice in Sweden. If he is a bust... so what? He is $875,000 DOLLARS. Thats like $50,000 more than POULIOT!
Great point! The Oilers are going to spend the same amount of money on a known quantity with little upside. I would rather see them spend the money on an unknown with unknown, but possibly huge upside.

Now watch Tamellini sign Plante to a max contract

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04-08-2009, 03:21 PM
  #264
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Just another dissapointment to this season....the kid is the top scorer in the Swedish Elite League for Christ Sake...They will spend over $4MM on Penner but not offer a prospect that their own scout drafted? Even if he didnt pan out i am sure they could trade him for something. Horrible asset management imo as they have just lost him fore nothing. God forbid we have players with skill.

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04-08-2009, 03:22 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awesomo View Post
How is $875,000 that much of a gamble? This guy is one of the most talented players to ever hit the ice in Sweden. If he is a bust... so what? He is $875,000 DOLLARS. Thats like $50,000 more than POULIOT!
If he's not willing to take a 2-way, that extra near million dollars goes a long way in the UFA market this offseason. It's not smart practice to throw a million dollars worth of cap space away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic View Post
If he ended up being a bust, nothing would be lost but some cash form our billionaires pocket book.

And again, anyone who says Omark is just guy with nice youtube clips doesn't know what he is talking about, if thats what you were implying.
He's not a billionaire because he wastes money on everything that comes along.

...and thanks for your input on the second part. Do you know something I don't that is relevant to north american hockey? There are countless examples of pretty numbers in Europe that mean nothing out here (Horcoff being one that hits home pretty hard)

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04-08-2009, 03:25 PM
  #266
Mike Krushelnyski
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Originally Posted by JBell84 View Post
and look at where 3 of those 4 teams ended up this year. Dallas and Toronto are absolutely irrelevant and Pittsburgh almost ended up being a bubble team with 2 of the league's 3 top scorers. Detroit has shown that they know how to scout internationally time and time again, have we?
The point is that with the exception of maybe Pesonen, though he's having a decent season in the AHL, all of those 'gambles' paid off and all of those players appear to be intergral parts to those teams moving forward.

It would have been nice to see the Oil step up and roll the dice themselves... they might have crapped out, or they might have rolled a hard six, but at least they would have been in the game. Now they have absolutely nothing.

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04-08-2009, 03:26 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post

All I was saying with my point is that a player needs to be given a spot based on merit, not demand. It's up to the player to prove it in camp against what would be his peers.
And I totally understand that you guys, who never seen him play a single game, don´t acknowledge his performance over here as a merit. But obviously Brunnström got the maximum salary and he wasn´t even drafted.

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04-08-2009, 03:26 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
The way I understand it is, because there's no transfer agreement with IIHF and the fact that the NHLPA lost it's challenge to the current CBA (Article 8.6 or i.e Cherepanov) back in late 2008, all unsigned drafted Europeans essentially turn "Defected Status". Which means each team (this case EDM and TB) still retain their rights (Indefinately)

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=546690

http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2008...ed_player.html

"November 4, New York Post: The league's victory in that grievance as awarded by arbiter Richard Bloch, essentially gives teams the rights to these players into perpetuity for as long as there is no IIHF transfer agreement between the NHL and international hockey federations."

"The NHLPA lost the grievance it filed against the league based on testimony by deputy commissioner Bill Daly as to communications with, and the intent of, former PA executive director Ted Saskin when the sides agreed via a letter agreement on July 22, 2005 to temporarily adopt "defected player" status in the absence of a transfer agreement."

"Though the letter agreement had expired and the PA did not agree to extend it, the NHL sent a May 19 memo to league general managers advising them that it was reinstituting "defected player" status."
Thanks for pointing this out. As a Business Board mod I should have been more on top of this. It might be worth asking kdb and the experts there what their take on the current status is. I'll do this and if I get anything back will post it here.

In any case, it looks to me like the Oilers retain his NHL rights.

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04-08-2009, 03:26 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by JBell84 View Post
If he's not willing to take a 2-way, that extra near million dollars goes a long way in the UFA market this offseason. It's not smart practice to throw a million dollars worth of cap space away.




He's not a billionaire because he wastes money on everything that comes along.

...and thanks for your input on the second part. Do you know something I don't that is relevant to north american hockey? There are countless examples of pretty numbers in Europe that mean nothing out here (Horcoff being one that hits home pretty hard)
As far as i know, and read on this board. He HAD to take a 2 way, it wasn't about that. It was how the Oilers didn't believe in him because he is too small and all he has are tons of youtube videos. They guy was in the top scoring in the SEL, what more do they want?


How is it a waste? Omark was basically the Oilers free agent this year, it was like everyone trying to sign Brunnstrom last year. It was a low risk, high reward deal and they totally blew it.

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04-08-2009, 03:27 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Mike Krushelnyski View Post
A few euro players signed just this past season to rookie max contracts that have never played in the NHL:

Detroit Red Wings
Ville Leino
Salary: $875,000

Dallas Stars
Fabian Brunnstrom
Salary: $875,000

Pittsberg Penguins
Janne Pesonen
Salary: $875,000

Toronto Maple Leafs
Nikolai Kulemin
Salary: $850,000 (just shy of rookie max)

No guaranteed roster spots for any of them... but the money is there. So why are other organizations willing to sign 'unproven' talent to those contracts if it's that much of an adverse gamble?
You have 3 free agent signings and a 2nd rounder on your list.

The situations are not comparable.

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04-08-2009, 03:27 PM
  #271
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Hey, first time on the oilers board, but after reading the interviews with Omark and Harju in Swedish, I thought some pertinent points have been rather lost in the discussion. As has already been mentioned, Omark speaks of the limited interest Edmonton has shown him, and no there is absolutely no mention of money or bonuses or such things, but that Edmonton have spoken of him being small and that their roster is already filled with small players, and that he gets the feeling he doesn't fit with their future plans.

What apparently tipped the scales and made a difficult decision easy was that he can play another year with his best buddy, and that Weinhandl has spoken very highly to him of the Dynamo organisation. A direct quote from him to end the interview is, "It has been a difficult decision but from what my agent has told me, Edmonton doesn't really believe in me." Now this can be interpreted two ways, either the agent was pushing really hard for Omark to sign with Dynamo (possibly gaining himself a fat bonus) or he was told things by the Edmonton brass that made him tell his client not to sign there, or it could mean that the agent was pushing hard for the money and Edmonton didn't want to play ball. Food for thought in any case... Omark repeats that his ultimate goal is the NHL and that this is just a step on the way.

PS. Heh, the article below the interview with Omark is an interview with Erik Karlsson where he speaks of being rushed over to NA by the Sens. I wonder how much their sudden determination to get him over NOW is because they've panicked over the thought of the KHL poaching their prospect
If this is true the Oilers are the laughing stock in the league. Agents suggesting to their clients its better to go sign in KHL then play for the Edmonton Oilers is a huge blemish that someone from the Oilers should have to answer to.

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04-08-2009, 03:29 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by JBell84 View Post
If he's not willing to take a 2-way, that extra near million dollars goes a long way in the UFA market this offseason. It's not smart practice to throw a million dollars worth of cap space away.




He's not a billionaire because he wastes money on everything that comes along.

...and thanks for your input on the second part. Do you know something I don't that is relevant to north american hockey? There are countless examples of pretty numbers in Europe that mean nothing out here (Horcoff being one that hits home pretty hard)
The pure fact that you just said he wouldn't accept a two way contract shows you don't know what your talking about. It has to be a two way contract, we wouldn't commit to the max AHL and NHL salary.

Again, if you are saying Omark is not going to be successful because Horcoff was successful you need to take a step back and realize Horcoff is an extremely good hockey player, that's why he is in the NHL. If he turned out to be as good as Horcoff, a completely different player you are comparing him to by the way, we would be laughing.

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04-08-2009, 03:30 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Valic View Post
The pure fact that you just said he wouldn't accept a two way contract shows you don't know what your talking about. It has to be a two way contract, we wouldn't commit to the max AHL and NHL salary.

Again, if you are saying Omark is not going to be successful because Horcoff was successful you need to take a step back and realize Horcoff is an extremely good hockey player, that's why he is in the NHL. If he turned out to be as good as Horcoff, a completely different player you are comparing him to by the way, we would be laughing.
Even if he became a horcoff, he would be a much cheaper one LOL

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04-08-2009, 03:31 PM
  #274
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You have 3 free agent signings and a 2nd rounder on your list.

The situations are not comparable.
They are not comparable because Omark had a way better season than all of the players you listed.

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04-08-2009, 03:31 PM
  #275
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Even if he became a horcoff, he would be a much cheaper one LOL
I wish Horcoff was a cheaper Horcoff and we could just keep him instead.

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