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NYR-TOR Proposal.

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Old
09-10-2004, 08:14 AM
  #26
Bacchus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoman
I was just counter proposaling darkblue's proposal of antro+berg for blackburn

unless you mean Berg>Late round pick.
Yes, that's what I meant. I know, some of you Leafs-guys may see that different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
First off, it looks like the Rags may be finally rebuilding, not sure though. Trading Rachunek kind of seems Counter-Productive. Anyway, Antropov isn't worth close to what Rachunek is in my opinion. At this point, I would give a 3rd round pick for Antropov. As for Rachunek, he may be able to fetch you a First, if not a Second I would think
Some posters here on the board want to trade Rachunek. He didn't look good in his short stint after the deadline and it seems that this scares some people around here.
But I highly doubt that Sather wants to trade Rachunek.

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Old
09-10-2004, 08:18 AM
  #27
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I have no interest in trading Antropov right now.

He's a pretty good 3rd line player as it is. And he still has the potential to be much more.

That's way too big of a risk to take to acquire a mid-level prospect or 3rd round pick.

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Old
09-10-2004, 03:58 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Yes, that's what I meant. I know, some of you Leafs-guys may see that different.



Some posters here on the board want to trade Rachunek. He didn't look good in his short stint after the deadline and it seems that this scares some people around here.
But I highly doubt that Sather wants to trade Rachunek.
oh really? well lets talk Dealing Berg then, 3rd rounder?

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Old
09-10-2004, 07:03 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protoman
oh really? well lets talk Dealing Berg then, 3rd rounder?
Sorry, no spot left for Berg.

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Old
09-11-2004, 11:09 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancid
What about Antropov for a 2nd Round Pick and Patrick Aufiero? If that's not good maybe Nathan Guenin?
Aufiero cant even keep a job in the ECHL. He has negative value.

And we wont trade Guenin for Antropov. Guenin has the talent to make a name for himself in the NHL.

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Old
09-11-2004, 12:16 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desperateblue
No way, you can forget about the leafs trading away anymore of thier 1st round picks.Its not gonna happen. Id love to see antropov moved but not for holik or a 4-5 d man. how about antro and berg for blackburn ???
rangers aren't going to move blackburn till he returns from his injury because his value is at an all-time low right now...eventually they will have to look to move either blackburn, montoya or lundqvist at some point. but before they do that they will wait for blackburn to return and hope he bounces back and has a solid year in hartford.

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Old
09-11-2004, 12:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Great
Ya what's up with Blackburn and the Rangers taking Montoya.As for trading Antro to the rangers I would trade him straight up for Balej
rangers theory is that you can never have enough goalies...goaltending is the most important position and until that young guy takes over as an established #1 goalie nothing is guaranteed. there are questions about blackburn's shoulder and lundqvist has never played on a north american rink...so the theory is that by adding montoya to the mix they feel that they have increased their odds that atleast 1 of them will turn into an elite #1 and make them rock solid in net. and hopefully best case scenario all 3 will work out and then we'll be able to deal 1 or 2 of them down the road to fill another need (ie drafting best asset)

as for balej, i highly doubt that the rangers will look to move balej unless they are getting a really good player in return (and antropov isn't at that level) the rangers expect huge things from balej and he is one of our best young skill forwards, who will be a big part of the rebuild in ny. i expect him to be the #2 right wing for years to come and it would take something big to change that.

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Old
09-11-2004, 12:39 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancid
your stretching calling Rachunek a potential #2, I say 4-5 dman.
Maybe
then
Rachunek
for
Antropov, conditional.
Rachunek (at least here in Ottawa) showed that he could be a top 4 dman for sure. Remember, he is still very young for a defenceman in this league. He's a Right handed shot and can move the puck...which is pretty rare.

I'd LOVE to get Coon back...but I know he'll never play for the Sens again no matter what.

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Old
09-11-2004, 12:50 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownbutfamous
No i am not streching his potential. He is a top four Dman right now at 24, in a couple years he could start moving into a top 2 role, unlikely, but he has the potential to be.
I think this is fair

NYR gives:
Bobby Holik (NYR eats $4 million a season of his salary)
2006 3rd Round Pick
2005 3rd Round Pick

TOR gives:
Nik Antropov
2005 1st Round Pick
Thats just terrible Holik at even 5 million is worth a hockey bag and a couple of pucks. What incentive does Toronto have trading their first round pick AND their first round pick from a couple of years ago for that crap

More Realistic offer

Holik and a 3rd 2006
For
2nd 2006

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Old
09-11-2004, 01:09 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Thats just terrible Holik at even 5 million is worth a hockey bag and a couple of pucks. What incentive does Toronto have trading their first round pick AND their first round pick from a couple of years ago for that crap

More Realistic offer

Holik and a 3rd 2006
For
2nd 2006
Well, when Holik was a UFA, he was worth around 8 mil for TO.

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Old
09-11-2004, 02:20 PM
  #36
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The only thing the Leafs would get to make giving up Antropov to the Rangers would be to keep Leetch a while longer.

Hey, I actually kinda like that idea...

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Old
09-11-2004, 02:29 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Well, when Holik was a UFA, he was worth around 8 mil for TO.
Thats nice 8 million for Toronto is alot different than giving up a 1st rounder in a good draft and a functional player

Give your head a shake if you think its even close at all

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Old
09-11-2004, 04:14 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Thats nice 8 million for Toronto is alot different than giving up a 1st rounder in a good draft and a functional player

Give your head a shake if you think its even close at all
Okay I gave it a shake.
Still think that Holik at 5 mio is worth more than "a hockey bag and a couple of pucks" (not only given that TO two years ago wanted to pay him 8 mio)...
I never said that the proposal with the 1st is close, but your counter-proposal isn't either. You're not only giving up "a funcional player" you get one back! And one that might be of more value to the Leafs as of now - next year might be their last chance for a while to win the cup (Leetch, Belfour, Roberts won't get any younger). And I tend to think that Holik can help there a little more than Antropov.

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Old
09-11-2004, 04:45 PM
  #39
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How about then.....

Antropov

for

LaBarbera and a 3rd.

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Old
09-11-2004, 05:28 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknownbutfamous
Yea lets give up a potential #2 defenseman(worst case #4 DMan) for most likely a third line center with possibly 2nd line potential.
I love the way you're so positive with Rachunek's potential and so negative with Antropov's. I agree that Rachunek has good upside and Antropov is looking more and more like he will never be a big point producer, but let's keep things in perspective here. Rachunek is pretty much a second pairing, #4 defenseman right now while Antropov is pretty much a third line center. Neither has proven much, but both could make decent players out of themselves. Their value is probably about comparable when you consider Antropov's injury history, draft history and all that stuff. I'd say this deal is about equal, but I'm not convinced it makes sense. The Rangers do lack size, but they don't have a heck of a lot on defense other than Tjutin, Pock, Rachunek and Poti, meaning I doubt they'd move Rachunek. And as someone mentioned, Antropov's value is low so the Leafs would be wise to hang on to him and cross their fingers and hope he gets his career back on track.

 
Old
09-11-2004, 06:33 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancid
How about then.....

Antropov

for

LaBarbera and a 3rd.
No

How about we all decide these 2 teams are not good trading partners and leave it like that

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Old
09-11-2004, 06:37 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Okay I gave it a shake.
Still think that Holik at 5 mio is worth more than "a hockey bag and a couple of pucks" (not only given that TO two years ago wanted to pay him 8 mio)...
I never said that the proposal with the 1st is close, but your counter-proposal isn't either. You're not only giving up "a funcional player" you get one back! And one that might be of more value to the Leafs as of now - next year might be their last chance for a while to win the cup (Leetch, Belfour, Roberts won't get any younger). And I tend to think that Holik can help there a little more than Antropov.
8 Million 2 years ago, and 8 million today are 2 different things. Holik has a Yashin type contract that you won't get anything back for if you trade him...so whats the sense. Holik the player is VERY interesting. Holik the contract is untradable just about.

You have to think why you are trading him, and its because of a salary dump. Do you honestly think a team like Toronto can afford to take on more salary and even better to get rid of 2 lower end salaries (Antro and the 1st.)

The 2 teams just are not good trading partners unless we had a salary dump and the only one would be Nolan and I would not be interested in swapping those 2 either

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Old
09-11-2004, 07:01 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
8 Million 2 years ago, and 8 million today are 2 different things. Holik has a Yashin type contract that you won't get anything back for if you trade him...so whats the sense. Holik the player is VERY interesting. Holik the contract is untradable just about.

You have to think why you are trading him, and its because of a salary dump. Do you honestly think a team like Toronto can afford to take on more salary and even better to get rid of 2 lower end salaries (Antro and the 1st.)

The 2 teams just are not good trading partners unless we had a salary dump and the only one would be Nolan and I would not be interested in swapping those 2 either
Holiks contract is half as log as Yashins!
I don't think Holik at 5 mio would be untradable, but anyway, I agree with you that they don't make good trading partners.
I'd rather keep Holik anyway (not only because we don't have to drop him salary-wise) and I'm sure most of you Leafs fans want to keep Antropov.

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Old
09-11-2004, 09:36 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Thats just terrible Holik at even 5 million is worth a hockey bag and a couple of pucks. What incentive does Toronto have trading their first round pick AND their first round pick from a couple of years ago for that crap

More Realistic offer

Holik and a 3rd 2006
For
2nd 2006
Craig Conroy signed for four years at about $4 million, right? Brian Rolston, four years, at about $4 million, right? Keith Primeau got a shade more than that, right? Heck, Nylander got three years at $3 million from the Rangers.

Why do I bring this up?

Because Conroy, Rolston, Primeau, and Nylander all played for playoff teams last year and Holik played for the hideously bad Rangers.

Now who scored the most? Holik. Admittedly Nylander and Primeau got hurt, but Nylander is not the defensive prescence or physical specimen. Primeau is probably worth a bit more, but it's hardly a slam dunk.

Even during a lockout, a 6'5" mountain of angry forward who never gets hurt, plays defense like a fanatic, is a top face-off man, and chips in 50 points a season is worth quite a bit. How many of those above four players would you rather have than Holik? Primeau I'll give you, but he isn't available, nor is any other player like him.

Holik at $5 million a season is pretty reasonable money. Not great, but pretty reasonable. Now you may wish to debate if he's worth a first, and that's certainly open for argument. But if the Rangers were dangling him out there at this price? They'd get phone calls, for certain. And the Leafs would be morons not to get involved. Or would you prefer he return to Jersey?

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Old
09-12-2004, 06:15 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubera55
Craig Conroy signed for four years at about $4 million, right? Brian Rolston, four years, at about $4 million, right? Keith Primeau got a shade more than that, right? Heck, Nylander got three years at $3 million from the Rangers.

Why do I bring this up?

Because Conroy, Rolston, Primeau, and Nylander all played for playoff teams last year and Holik played for the hideously bad Rangers.

Now who scored the most? Holik. Admittedly Nylander and Primeau got hurt, but Nylander is not the defensive prescence or physical specimen. Primeau is probably worth a bit more, but it's hardly a slam dunk.

Even during a lockout, a 6'5" mountain of angry forward who never gets hurt, plays defense like a fanatic, is a top face-off man, and chips in 50 points a season is worth quite a bit. How many of those above four players would you rather have than Holik? Primeau I'll give you, but he isn't available, nor is any other player like him.

Holik at $5 million a season is pretty reasonable money. Not great, but pretty reasonable. Now you may wish to debate if he's worth a first, and that's certainly open for argument. But if the Rangers were dangling him out there at this price? They'd get phone calls, for certain. And the Leafs would be morons not to get involved. Or would you prefer he return to Jersey?

Your missing the bigger issue here. Holik is a 9 million dollar player not 5. Say the Rangers "offer" to cover 4 million of his contract thats great the Leafs would "pay" 5 million BUT for any sort of a "cap" it would be in the books as "9 million"

All of a sudden Conroy, Rolston, Primeau, and Nylander's contracts look better eh?

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Old
09-12-2004, 07:34 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Burke
I love the way you're so positive with Rachunek's potential and so negative with Antropov's. I agree that Rachunek has good upside and Antropov is looking more and more like he will never be a big point producer, but let's keep things in perspective here. Rachunek is pretty much a second pairing, #4 defenseman right now while Antropov is pretty much a third line center. Neither has proven much, but both could make decent players out of themselves. Their value is probably about comparable when you consider Antropov's injury history, draft history and all that stuff. I'd say this deal is about equal, but I'm not convinced it makes sense. The Rangers do lack size, but they don't have a heck of a lot on defense other than Tjutin, Pock, Rachunek and Poti, meaning I doubt they'd move Rachunek. And as someone mentioned, Antropov's value is low so the Leafs would be wise to hang on to him and cross their fingers and hope he gets his career back on track.
All im saying was that Rachunek is a top 4 right now, but can improve to be a #2. You said it yourself "Antropov is pretty much a third line center".

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Old
09-12-2004, 10:32 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NataSatan666
Your missing the bigger issue here. Holik is a 9 million dollar player not 5. Say the Rangers "offer" to cover 4 million of his contract thats great the Leafs would "pay" 5 million BUT for any sort of a "cap" it would be in the books as "9 million"

All of a sudden Conroy, Rolston, Primeau, and Nylander's contracts look better eh?
Sorry Nata, I don't mean to jump all over you, but I've seen this idea stated as fact repeatedly over the last several months, and I have no clue why.

Yeah, sure, Bettman threatened the idea of face-value-valuation under a cap. Of course, that's a still-to-be-negotiated-detail of any new CBA. And unlike the hard-cap, the UFA age, or any number of other issues, it's very hard to figure out who exactly is going to be pushing so hard for it.

Who benefits from such a rule? The NHLPA isn't going to be interested in it. It restricts player movement. Are big-market owners interested in it? No, they want to be able to move portions of 'unfortunate' contract decisions even under a cap. How about small market teams? God no. They have the opportunity to get marquee names and talents, directly subsidized by the bigger market clubs. Remember, a hard Cap keeps payroll down, but it doesn't re-distribute any of the revenue advantage that New York, Philadelphia, or Toronto hold. So small market teams are still going to hope that they can get slid some money under the table, right?

So who's fighting for this? Why isn't this just an empty threat from Bettman pre-lockout to try and scare down player salaries? And even if it's an eventual feature of the future CBA, how on earth would it benefit ANYONE by making it apply retro-actively to pre-lockout contracts? All that does is paralyze big payroll clubs and doom them to 2-3 years of an unmarketable product. Does Bettman, the NHLPA, or any owner gain something by television ratings in New York, Toronto, Detroit, St.Louis, and Philadelphia all simultaneously dropping off the face of the earth?

No. No they don't.

Sure, there is at least a theoretical risk that Bettman will get this particular provision through. It's there and I won't deny it. But to say that it's a certainty, or even a very likely outcome is, I think, clearly mistating the probabilities.

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Old
09-12-2004, 04:35 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Sorry, no spot left for Berg.
damn, oh well can't win em all.

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Old
09-13-2004, 02:35 PM
  #49
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As others have mentioned, Antropov's value isn't too high right now and won't fetch what he is really worth.

I still think the kid can play. He has great hands and passing, and has very good defensive instincts. At minimum, he can be a solid #2/#3 centre who scores 50 points and provides some size. The Leafs would be unwise to give up on him at this point.

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Old
09-13-2004, 06:45 PM
  #50
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yeah Antropov has the tools to dominate, he just needs to put them together, I doubt he'll ever reach his potential of a dominating PF, but if he can learn to play a smart game by using his size he can be a good player, someone to shut down top line players? possible net a few goals himself.

He's 6 foot 6 230+ pounds, I mean aside form your Chara's no one should be able to move this guy or keep him from going to the net.

Roberts is puny compared to Nik and he manages to do this even with crease clearing D-men around him, he just refuses to get out of that spot, if Nik had Roberts Heart, well his stock would be a little higher to say the least.

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