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Old
04-13-2009, 11:26 PM
  #26
ph
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
For everyone clamoring for Coburn-Timonen to get back together, do you really want Carle-Parent trying to shut down Malkin?
It would be Jones-Parent I believe. It was something similar last time we played. Malkin was invisible and held to 0 SOG.

edit: actually I think it was Jones-Coburn with Timonen-Parent on Crosby.

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Old
04-13-2009, 11:26 PM
  #27
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Not gonna lie, I miss Ossi.

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Old
04-13-2009, 11:36 PM
  #28
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Jones is hobbled and physically cannot perform that role (2nd pairing) now, though.

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Old
04-14-2009, 07:03 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Not gonna lie, I miss Ossi.
I hear ya. Ossi was pretty reliable and a very good D partner. Guys tended to play better when paired with Ossi, especially Sbisa. The Carle trade created the in season cap mess, he needs to play well this playoffs.

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Old
04-14-2009, 08:05 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
No one is stating they are rocks, but Jones, in the 45 or 50 games he played, did ok. Coburn did not, and Kukkonen was a disaster in his limited time.
Coburn was a + player out there...he was a disaster? Coburn is a second year defenseman essentially, and given the makeup of our defense he's been asked to essentially play like a second no. 1.

Hardly characterize what he did this year as no doing OK. He certainly struggled in comparison to playing with Timonen last year, but that was to be expected...he also picked up his game in the final third of the year as he simplified what he was doing considerably.

Then there is the fact that he had Carle out there with him who is decidedly not OK defensively.

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Old
04-14-2009, 12:46 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'd honestly rather have that than Carle-Coburn, but I may be in the minority here.

I still think Parent makes a lot of mistakes, but not as many as Coburn and he's a stay at home guy too.
Jester kind of alluded to it in the post above mine, but I think the reason Coburn looks so much worse this season is because Timonen was taken away from him. Take Kimmo away from Parent and he's going to struggle just as much, but with a year less experience to boot. I'm not sure now is the time to start experimenting, but if the normal pairings stop working I'd like to see

Kimmo-Jones
Coburn-Parent
Carle-Alberts

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Old
04-14-2009, 12:51 PM
  #32
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Timonen's number are better with Coburn aswell. They compliment each other

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Old
04-14-2009, 02:00 PM
  #33
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So Coburn has looked worse because he hasn't had an elite world class partner? Groundbreaking analysis.

Coburn's seeming regression is only remarkable if one expects someone of his experience to be a truly solid defenseman, night in, night out. No one should have expected that (although that is clear only in retrospect).

Where experience is concerned, here is some good trivia: who has played the most career NHL games:

Matt Carle (fodder for trade because he makes mistakes),

Randy Jones (fodder for trade because he makes mistakes), or

Braydon Coburn (bright, bright, shutdown future, despite the fact that he makes mistakes)

?

ANSWERS BELOW (click and drag):

---

Matt Carle 227
Randy Jones 217
Braydon Coburn 216


---

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Old
04-14-2009, 02:14 PM
  #34
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Coburn's GA/g was Lower tha Kimmo's when they played together. We all know Coburn has had a rough year, but he's been solid lately. Jones would be fine if his hip wasn't messed up and Carle is alright most of the time.

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Old
04-14-2009, 02:17 PM
  #35
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Wow, its amazing that I am not on here for at least a month and we are having the same debates and discussions

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Jones actually wasn't bad. I still find the Jones-Carle comparisons to be totally asinine (Carle plays with a partner who's arguably weaker defensively than Alberts and he plays against much better players), but Jones wasn't bad.

I think everyone's issue with him has been the contract (not his fault) and the truly boneheaded mistakes he makes (Marty has bailed him out A LOT this year).

My issue with this team is that they have a 1.01 5 on 5 goal ratio which is absolutely pathetic and the starter finished with a .915, so it's not his fault.
I think the Jones/Carle comparisons are accurate in the sense that they are both dmen with decent offensive ability that make stupid boneheaded plays defensively....Carle has much more upside and potential than Jones, but it sure as heck has not been realized at this time.

They have both been ok in my opinion, certainly not earning their salaries.

I do agree that the Carle/Coburn pairing doesnt help either one of them. Carle needs a pure stay at home guy with him (Vaanaen would have been perfect or Parent) and Coburn should be playing with Timonen.

Unfortunately that moron is still behind the bench and hasnt been able to figure this one out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carle is weaker defensively than Coburn man. No offense to your fave player. I think that they play too similarly to be paired together anyway
Agreed 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by flountown View Post
I definitely feel Kukkonen should have gotten a lot more consistent play time last year. The guy is a quiet work horse, he blocks shots and plays solid, consistent, boring defense. And he also would join the list of Flyers with nice looking wives.

This year I felt he could have been the solid 6-7th defenseman, especially with the early season LTIR's, but last year I feel he should have been our 5-6.
Kukkonen is a solid 3rd pairing dman in the league when he actually gets sufficient playing time....Obviously Steven's has something against him....maybe he has something against Finnish dmen cause the handling of Vaananen was even more asinine

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
No way Carle is my favorite, I just feel bad for the guy cause he's trashed unfairly.

And I'm not saying Carle is better defensively than Coburn, but I think Coburn and Alberts are at a similar defensive level. Coby has picked it up recently, but the bonehead mistakes and dumb penalties are still there and I'd like him to show more consistent nastiness in the corners.

Anyways.

Kimmo-Coburn
Parent-Carle

I feel like a blind man in the desert that's been begging for these pairings forever.
Other than Timonen, they all make boneheaded plays....Because they are not taught NHL level defensive positioning from their coaching staff

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Old
04-14-2009, 02:24 PM
  #36
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Speaking of offense skill what happened to Randy's?

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Old
04-14-2009, 02:33 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Speaking of offense skill what happened to Randy's?
...he's a vulture. not a bad quality in a defenseman, but when he got taken away from the more skilled players his production was/is going to diminish because he doesn't create much of anything on his own. I'm sure the hip is a factor as well, but it isn't like Jones is all that great at leading rushes or setting up plays.

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Old
04-14-2009, 05:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
So Coburn has looked worse because he hasn't had an elite world class partner? Groundbreaking analysis.

Coburn's seeming regression is only remarkable if one expects someone of his experience to be a truly solid defenseman, night in, night out. No one should have expected that (although that is clear only in retrospect).
Wow, way to respond to the part that wasn't the point at all. In your infinite wisdom one can only attain through age, I would have expected you could follow a fairly simple conversation.

The point is, Coburn isn't good enough to carry Carle, so Parent's not going to be able to do it either.

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Old
04-14-2009, 06:01 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph View Post
It could also be argued a 3rd pairing defenseman would be playing more with the 3rd and 4th line forwards who are not going to score you as many goals, therefore you won't get as many goals for to offset your goals against. It all evens out in the end. The best reflection of how good the defenseman is defensively is in who they are being asked to defend.

In case you haven't noticed, our 4th line plays like 5 mins a game and we USUALLY put Timonen out there with them just so we don't get trapped in the situation you just discribed so no, it's NOT a job well done.

Second, also in case you haven't noticed we roll 3 SCORING LINES, we don't roll a traditional shut-down 3rd line that isn't set up to score goals. Again, your argument fails to hold water when you take it out of the fantasy/ideal hockey team situation and examine the ACTUALY Philadelphia Flyers 2008/2009 hockey team.

Last, again, in case you haven't noticed by actually watching the Flyers play hockey for the past 2 years, the Flyers don't EXPECT their dmen to add much to the scoring. We expect them to play DEFENSE. If you have any doubts about whether or not this is the true philosophy (right or wrong) of Stevens brand of hockey just look at Kimmo Timonens stats over the last 2 years. Either he's gotten old very quickly and that's why his scoring is down (most likely NOT the case bacause his defensive play is actually bitter here) or he's being asked to focus more on defense and less on offense.


Again, watch them actually play and who they play against. If you can't see the truth on the ice and you feel the need to cling to stats like this then this is a useless discussion. Numbers are fine but they NEVER tell the whole story. If you need to cling to obscure stats like this to try and make a point about someones value then you are clearly reaching and have a biased view of said player.

Additionally, pencil necked geeks who couldn't acutally play the game tend to be the ones who cling to stats as a tell-all. people who can actually play the game see far far more than anything that can be found in stats. That's why I didn't have a problem with Clarke trading Oulette after Bernie Parent told him that he was never going to develope (even while he was the most lighly toted goalie prospect in the world at that time). Bernie saw beyond all the amazing stats and knew an underlying flaw that would prove him to be a bust. EVERY stat guy was calling Clarke stupid when in fact it was Parent who made the call on Oulette and guess what, an actual HOF goalie knew more than all the pencil pushers combined because he sees much more than stats.

THIS is all that needs to be said on this subject. THIS is an actually valid view point.


Last edited by phlocky: 04-14-2009 at 06:07 PM.
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Old
04-14-2009, 06:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Wow, way to respond to the part that wasn't the point at all. In your infinite wisdom one can only attain through age, I would have expected you could follow a fairly simple conversation.

The point is, Coburn isn't good enough to carry Carle, so Parent's not going to be able to do it either.
Even if Parent cannot carry Carle, I think he is a better compliment. Plus it reunites Kimmo with Coburn which was a really effective pair.

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Old
04-14-2009, 06:12 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Timonen's number are better with Coburn aswell. They compliment each other
Timonen makes every one of his partners better. The problem is that we CAN'T put Coburn up on the top pairing because Carle can't cover for Parent's mistakes (and yes he still makes a fair numbr of them it's just that Timonen is so damn good at covering them just like he was with Coburn last year). This teams best option is to have our 2nd and 3rd best dmen, Coburn and Carle, paired together on the 2nd pairing, and our #1 and #4 on the top pairing. Jones can't read a play in his own zone to save his life and would get eaten up on the 2nd pairing. There's a very good reason that he's NOT currently on the 2nd pairing, he's not a better option than Carle and that's the simple truth.

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Old
04-14-2009, 06:14 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
Even if Parent cannot carry Carle, I think he is a better compliment. Plus it reunites Kimmo with Coburn which was a really effective pair.
First of all, Carle would be leading that pairing just like he's the one who leads when he and Coburn are together. Coburn may be better defensively but Carle is the leader of the paring. Eventually Parent will be better sutied to carry the defensive load on the 2nd pairing than Coburn but not right now.

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Old
04-14-2009, 07:33 PM
  #43
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JXC in case you missed it Gagne has the lowest GA/60 of any full time player on our team. (Giroux is lower)

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Old
04-15-2009, 08:53 AM
  #44
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http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/4/13...nsive-forwards

Richards, Knuble, Gagne in top 13

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Old
04-15-2009, 09:25 AM
  #45
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This thread delivered me my morning chuckle, as I sit here looking at the Mountains, sipping a green tea.

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Old
04-15-2009, 12:00 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Wow, if we have 4 of the top 30 guys which teams don't have any in the top 30???

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Old
04-15-2009, 03:47 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Wow, if we have 4 of the top 30 guys which teams don't have any in the top 30???
You have to read that a bit more carefully than that. For one, the fact that you have good defensive players all on a line together is going to help each of them considerably. Playing with Briere at center didn't really help anyone's defensive statistics last year.

You look at someone like Knuble. He's a very conscientious player defensively, but his (lack of) speed lets him down considerably whilst playing defense through the neutral zone. He's very good playing defense in the defensive zone, thus why he's a good PK'er, but it doesn't necessarily translate to all areas of the ice.

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Old
04-15-2009, 04:11 PM
  #48
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good defensive players with bad goalies wont be there

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Old
04-15-2009, 05:17 PM
  #49
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Wow, if we have 4 of the top 30 guys which teams don't have any in the top 30???
I don't see anyone from Pitt on there...

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