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Holmgren: "kind of cavalier attitude where it's like, 'What's the big deal'"

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Old
04-17-2009, 11:25 AM
  #26
HighOFFHockey
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You can see it in their play, there is no respect left for Stevens. This team has stopped responding to him. What drives me the crazy is that they hide it like its high school drama. Grow up and call out your team. There is nothing worse than a man who can't step up and admit that Theyre not giving 100%. I would love for once for Richards, Stevens, Kimmo, Gagne, or anyone to say "we haven't done what were supposed to where going to give you what we want, we are going to win and were going to die trying". I'm sick of beating around the bush no one here is stupid get some emotions running. Lets get angry I feel like they just brush off the loses and say oh well theres always next year.It drives me nuts that Stevens backs them up when they don't deserve it, call these guys out!

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Old
04-17-2009, 11:28 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
If Vaananen is so good why did he only play 3 of the 20+ games remaining for Vancouver, and play just over 9 minutes a game?
Still doesnt make Jones & Alberts better than him. Theres just some weird love affair with those two by Stevens / Homer.

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Old
04-17-2009, 11:29 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Vancouver has a pretty solid defense. Why throw in a new guy when they already have decent players who know the system?
They have a pretty solid defense because they have a top 3 goalie in the damn league. Why put Ossi in? There was a third of the season remaining when they got him, if they thought he was good enough to play in the NHL they would have worked him in, its not like they got him with 10 games left in the season. The fact remains that the Flyers were the only team willing to play Ossi on a regular basis over the past 2 seasons.

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Old
04-17-2009, 11:29 AM
  #29
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For some reason I can't reply to a comment on my blackberry, but regarding Vancouver, there is no reason for them to use Ossi. They got on a hot streak a couple of games before picking him up so why would they change their line up? They went from almost missing the playoffs to becoming the third seed.

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04-17-2009, 11:34 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Still doesnt make Jones & Alberts better than him. Theres just some weird love affair with those two by Stevens / Homer.
No matter how good our offense may be, If we had 3 defenseman that werent good enough to make other teams in the NHL that we would have made the playoffs, let alone racking up 99 points to get there. Thatr combined with having a below average goalie would have put us at 10th or lower.

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Old
04-17-2009, 11:43 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If Alberts was so good, why was he scratched/wanted to leave Boston?
Ossi was not able to make an NHL team last year and then Vancouver scratched him for the last third of the season when they picked him up.

Alberts was waived by the clear cut best team in the eastern conference, who was the only team in the NHL to let up less than 200 goals this year.

Theres a difference between nobody in the NHL wanting you and being waived by the best defense in the league.

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:03 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
If Vaananen is so good why did he only play 3 of the 20+ games remaining for Vancouver, and play just over 9 minutes a game?
Vancouver has arguably the best top to bottom defense in the Western Conference. Vaananen is there in case someone is injured because, after the top 6, Vancouver's pool of defensemen really thins out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If Alberts was so good, why was he scratched/wanted to leave Boston?
Same goes for Boston in the Eastern Conference, except their defense doesn't thin out after their top 6. Alberts was too expensive to be spending time in the press box.



I'm not pleased that Holmgren had to be the one to come out and say this. It becomes more apparent each day that the Flyers are clearly missing the veteran leadership of Smith, Hatcher and Kapanen. On the flip side, at least someone did say it and maybe these guys will pull their collective heads out of their *****.

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:08 PM
  #33
IrishSniper87
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Cavalier attitude huh?

Philadelphia Cavaliers?



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Old
04-17-2009, 12:19 PM
  #34
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1) The cavalier attitude starts with the coach.

2) Trading your most high-energy player, fan-favourite, and team-favourite for a useless plug didn't help.

3) Losing solid veteran leadership and depth to waivers so you can keep playing Randy Jones on one leg didn't help, either.

Should I go on? There's plenty of blame to go around, Paul. Those players want to win. Do you? Because you've assembled a coaching staff and team that isn't capable of it right now.

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:26 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Watch, Holmgren will be behind the bench for the next home game

But really, if we loose this series, I think Stevens is out. Like I said, this is the second time that Holmgren has done this in crunch time, and we looked like absolute crap in Game 1. If we continue playing like that, Stevens better be gone. This team has way too much talent for it to be playing like this, we need a coach who can get the whole team going at once, Stevens has yet to get that done this year.

It might not be "signaling a coaching change," but to me, it screams that Holmgren isn't satisfied with Stevens work right now, the most important time of the year.
Look, I've wanted Stevens to be fired since about November of 2007...I have a long history of not wanting him around this club. I don't think he's a good coach, and I think it's constantly on display. You know what else I think? I think Holmgren likes Stevens...and not just as a coach, I think he likes him personally. Think about it. Stevens was a player/captain with the Phantoms, coach of the Phantoms, short-term assistant with the Flyers and now head coach. He's been within this organization for a long time, and for the majority of that tenure Holmgren and Stevens were closely involved with working with one another on the Phantoms (Holmgren managed the Phantoms closely whilst acting as the Asst. GM).

They're friends. I'm convinced of this...and there's absolutely nothing wrong with this.

However, all that means that I think it's going to take a lot more than a 99 point season and a loss to a very good team (Pens) to get him canned following a Conf. Finals run (even if the coach he opposed in those Conf. Finals got himself canned this season).

Should we have moved on from Stevens...yes. However, I very much doubt Holmgren is that close to making that move. I think it would take a sweep and a tough start to next season to get us really talking about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
OK, seriously, Im tired of hearing about how terrible it was to move Ossi. He was picked up by Vancouver and played just 3 games out of their last 20+ games of the season and averaged just over 9 minutes of ice time a game. If he was so damn good he would find a way to crack Vancouver's oh so great back line. You can say what you want about Upshall but Ossi, come on.
Because Ossi is a one dimensional player and they have a pretty good defense. Ossi played very well for this team the majority of the season...he was on the top pairing with Timonen for the majority of the season. So, lets not make it out like Ossi wasn't contributing to this team in a significant way. He was playing 20 minutes a night for us when we were building up a lot of the 99 pts you're so proud of.

Then, one day, he was suddenly sent to the press box. We've been awesome since around that point of the year, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If Alberts was so good, why was he scratched/wanted to leave Boston?
In fairness to the Alberts aspect of all of this...he was playing very well until relatively recently. As in the last few weeks of the season. Now he's returned to the type of play he was displaying in the first 15 games when he came here...this is a HUGE problem, becaue it's simply atrocious. I don't think much of Randy Jones, but Alberts is absolutely killing that pair right now. I would actually argue for putting Sbisa in there at this point...not because I think Sbisa will be all that great, but I think Alberts' game has just gone completely south for whatever reason.

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:34 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
1) The cavalier attitude starts with the coach.
Yep.

Can talk all you want about the captain, but the tone for a team comes from the head coach. Captain can only do so much. It's the demands the coach places on the players that is going to ultimately translate onto the ice in a truly meaningful way.

Look at Hartnell (who I believe is absolutely necessary for this roster)...he takes far too many stupid penalties. Bench him. Put him in the press box for a game...SEND A MESSAGE.

Scotty Upshall had this done to him last year...Hartnell just led the league in minors but didn't get sent to the pressbox once! Last year it was Briere hooking everyone in site...but it was Upshall. There's just a ridiculous level of inconsistency and hypocrisy under Stevens with regard to discipline...and there's a complete lack of system-discipline with this team.

That's from the coach.

Quote:
2) Trading your most high-energy player, fan-favourite, and team-favourite for a useless plug didn't help.
Yes, but certainly not the real problem.

Quote:
3) Losing solid veteran leadership and depth to waivers so you can keep playing Randy Jones on one leg didn't help, either.
If Jones' hip was bothering him all year...and this was a known factor when everything else was going on. Why wasn't Jones just put on LTIR? He has truly be an ineffective player for the majority of the year...and has a significant cap hit.

Timonen-Parent
Carle-Coburn
Vaananen-Alberts (or whatever you want)

LTIR: Jones.

Upshall is still with this team...Metro probably too. I also think Metro is an underrated loss. I like a guy like Powe, but Metro was simply a solid. He'd go out and do his job...you miss those types of voices in the room, too.

Quote:
Should I go on? There's plenty of blame to go around, Paul. Those players want to win. Do you? Because you've assembled a coaching staff and team that isn't capable of it right now.
Holmgren has a very hard summer in front of him. And while we should be mindful not to speak as if the season is over, as it is certainly not...when that time comes, it will be time for Holmgren and the job he's done and will be doing to have a very harsh light cast on it.

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:40 PM
  #37
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Its easy drink large amounts of liqour and our defense and goalies look stellar..

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Old
04-17-2009, 12:43 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Upshall is still with this team...Metro probably too. I also think Metro is an underrated loss. I like a guy like Powe, but Metro was simply a solid. He'd go out and do his job...you miss those types of voices in the room, too.
Quoted for emphasis. I completely agree with that.

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Old
04-17-2009, 01:02 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Because Ossi is a one dimensional player and they have a pretty good defense. Ossi played very well for this team the majority of the season...he was on the top pairing with Timonen for the majority of the season. So, lets not make it out like Ossi wasn't contributing to this team in a significant way. He was playing 20 minutes a night for us when we were building up a lot of the 99 pts you're so proud of.

Then, one day, he was suddenly sent to the press box. We've been awesome since around that point of the year, right?
That pretty much sums it up right there. Ossi was playing just fine for us on the top pair with Kimmo, when we had those 4/5/6 game win streaks earlier in the season. Then he leaves the ice for the press box and was subsequently waived. Then we didn't have one long streak of wins the rest of the season. Coincidence? I dunno..

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Old
04-17-2009, 01:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I'm not pleased that Holmgren had to be the one to come out and say this. It becomes more apparent each day that the Flyers are clearly missing the veteran leadership of Smith, Hatcher and Kapanen. On the flip side, at least someone did say it and maybe these guys will pull their collective heads out of their *****.
Scratches head.

They had more points this year then they did last year. How is it obvious that they are missing veteran leadership. Where was that leadership when this team lost 10 games in a row last year? Everyone looks at the ECF and totally overrates this team. They got a lucky matchup with Washington. Then got totally outplayed by Montreal skaters, only to win the series because Carey Price was awful. The team comes out and gets more points and a higher seed this year and all of a sudden they are missing veteran leadership?

The Flyers as they are currently constructed just aren't a Stanley Cup caliber team. They don't have that defenseman to lay bone-crushing hits or to clear the porch in front of the net to give Biron clean looks at the puck shooter. Opposing teams aren't concerning about going in the corners or in front of the net anymore because they aren't required to pay the price. And then conversely, apart from Knuble, they really don't have anyone to stand in front of the net and screen the opposing goalie. The Flyers really don't get many "ugly" goals anymore. They seem content to take tough angle shots from the boards or to try and puck handle around 3 guys to get a shot off. They really need more skillful muckers.

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Old
04-17-2009, 01:12 PM
  #41
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THis sums up why i get so pissed off when they loose.

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04-17-2009, 01:16 PM
  #42
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Mods are quick around here...

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Old
04-17-2009, 01:21 PM
  #43
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This whole Flyers team right now is reminding me of Rocky in Rocky III. They need Apollo Creed in the locker room....or at least this video played on the jumbotron...


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04-17-2009, 01:22 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by CaptainCannon View Post
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Haha they sure are, but I got to read and enjoy that post before it disappeared!

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04-17-2009, 01:24 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post

...I think it's going to take a lot more than a 99 point season and a loss to a very good team (Pens) to get him canned following a Conf. Finals run (even if the coach he opposed in those Conf. Finals got himself canned this season).
I think that's exactly right. Stevens is going to have to run this team into the ground before he is fired.

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04-17-2009, 01:31 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
Scratches head.

They had more points this year then they did last year. How is it obvious that they are missing veteran leadership. Where was that leadership when this team lost 10 games in a row last year? Everyone looks at the ECF and totally overrates this team. They got a lucky matchup with Washington. Then got totally outplayed by Montreal skaters, only to win the series because Carey Price was awful. The team comes out and gets more points and a higher seed this year and all of a sudden they are missing veteran leadership?

The Flyers as they are currently constructed just aren't a Stanley Cup caliber team. They don't have that defenseman to lay bone-crushing hits or to clear the porch in front of the net to give Biron clean looks at the puck shooter. Opposing teams aren't concerning about going in the corners or in front of the net anymore because they aren't required to pay the price. And then conversely, apart from Knuble, they really don't have anyone to stand in front of the net and screen the opposing goalie. The Flyers really don't get many "ugly" goals anymore. They seem content to take tough angle shots from the boards or to try and puck handle around 3 guys to get a shot off. They really need more skillful muckers.
I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you said, except the quesion regarding leadership. They have 4 points more than last season and finished one seed higher. That's hardly a remarkable improvement for a young team with another year's experience.

I'm not sure what you expected this season or this playoff, but you seem content that the team was basically a 0.500 hockey team in 2009. They blew a chance to have home ice by losing to teams they were supposed to defeat (Toronto and Ottawa) and when they knew that had only one more chance, they lost again to their greatest historical rival. Now they 'march' into the playoffs and promptly lay an egg in the first game and claim that the bounces didn't go their way.

Accounibility rests with the coaching staff to let these guys know their effort isn't good enough, but it also lies with the team leaders. The Flyers have a lot leaders by example, but they seem to lack a guy or two who will stand up and scare them into putting forth more effort.

If the Pens beat the Flyers I want it to be because they were better, not because the Flyers let them. Yes, last year Montreal heavily outplayed the Flyers and the Caps were probably the better team in most of the games that series, but I never questioned the effort. This year I've seen a lazy team meander their way towards a probable first round exit because no one has grabbed this team by the balls and made them play up to their own expectations. I'm sure they won't be happy with a first round loss, but it shouldn't be the GM that gets them to recognize that they're not doing enough to prevent it.

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04-17-2009, 01:37 PM
  #47
Terence Peterman
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I'm with Jester on both very much disliking Stevens around the team and him not getting fired any time soon. I was naive to his history with the club, but when I found out I lost all hope for him getting fired any time soon. The Flyers take care of their own, no matter what.

I still want **** to go down this offseason though, even if no matter what happens (short of Stevens being fired which, well, see above) will still most likely leave me sad because what should be some of this teams best years will laze in the wake of mediocrity.

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04-17-2009, 01:41 PM
  #48
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Old
04-17-2009, 01:52 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
At least he said something. I think the players must really not respect Stevens
here's my question then: who are they going to respect. they tuned hitchcock out, and he's one of the better technical coaches in the league (something we need). now we're saying they're tuning stevens out, who is much more of a players' coach. what kind of a coach is going to work?

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04-17-2009, 01:57 PM
  #50
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I don't think everyone should be so sure that our guys "don't respect Stevens". Just the other week in the STH meeting thread attendees were saying how much you could see Stevens cares about his players and how all the guys love the highlight video's with the cheesy team building music that Stevens makes for them. Doesn't sound like a
relationship absent of respect to me...

I wouldn't blame the inconsistency on lack of respect for the coach. Our players are young, there isn't a lot of veteran leadership on this team and that has been echoed throughout the year. So why don't people pay more attention to it? Having a young team, no matter what the sport is, generally comes hand in hand with inconsistency. I know Richie is a great captain and a leader, but we would have benefited greatly from having a few more experienced vets in the lineup. Why do you think they made Hatch a coach and put him on the bench?

If the argument were that Stevens isn't a great motivator, I'd be inclined to agree as I think the evidence is there to back up that statement. Holmgren has had to intervene at a couple diff points the last two years and it seems obvious that Stevens needs to improve his motivation skills.

I like Stevens, but I'm not totally sold on the guy either. The players seem to like him and he has produced but there are clear deficiencies as well. I'm all for giving him another year or half year to prove himself, he has earned that.

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