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Old
04-17-2009, 07:52 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by theranfordflop View Post
I appreciate this, not trying to blame Olczyk, was just wondering if he was the guy in charge of negotiations. I did read your summary of Olcyzk's talk, and it was insightful. Didn't want to make it sound like I was singling anybody out.



Yes that is the question. Why is he going out of his way to disparage the organization? As soon as he's drafted he's a part of this organization. Obviously he doesn't feel that way though.



At what point would you judge a draft pick as a "hit"? how about when they're the top prospect in their league at age 22? You can say all you want about a guy's attitude, the fact is based on results the guy earned a shot in NA. He didn't have to play on the Oilers, we have a farm team for a reason. If he's got a bad attitude it doesn't have to affect the team.



No, a good situation would be if Omark said, "I'll develop in the KHL for a year, and then make my way over."

As opposed to, "Screw the Oilers. They don't want me, so I'm going to sign somewhere else and prove them wrong."



Omark may be good enough, he may not be. He may be too small, he may not be. You don't know that. I don't know that. The Oilers don't know that. They had a chance to find out on good terms with their player, at the bare minimum of risk, and they made a conscious decision not to do that.

A very odd decision any way you look at it.
You make good points but I just want to add a couple things. I agree with you that I'd rather have Omark 's name on an Oiler contract than a KHL one right now. I meant this was a good situation in the sense that it could be worse. Also, we're currently making a fairly bold assumption: That Omark is telling the truth.

I have no real basis to call him a liar, but he has seen oddly spiteful about the contract negotiations and as I mentioned in my original post, I find it very questionable that he's publicly taking pot shots at the Oiler organization after a failed negotiation. Since his actions seem a bit devious, why do we have to believe at face value that $525,000 was the Oilers final offer?

Second, I think it's entirely possible that the Oilers brass simply took a pass on him this time around. Yes he looks like a great player and yes most people think that success can transition to the NHL, but I think the consensus seems to be he's not ready for the NHL yet. Do the Oilers really want to expend the effort and emotion on a player who will be playing in the AHL next year? Probably not. It might just have been a case of Olczyk telling Omark's agent "Look, if you're getting that kind of offer from a Russian team, we'll talk again next year." Similar to the Michigan player I mentioned in my thread I referred you to earlier perhaps? Who knows.

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04-17-2009, 08:36 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
He was drafted in the 4th round. Fourth rounders do not deserve rookie max contracts. I believe he didn't want to play in the AHL and wanted a guarantee he'd be in the NHL.
I'm drunk as a skunk right now, but I don't understad this argument at all. 4th round doesn't matter. He's proven himself in the SEL. Superstar numbers.

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04-17-2009, 08:47 PM
  #578
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This whole mess would be a good question for Kevin Prendergast on the Pipeline Show this Tuesday. The more requests, the better chance the question comes up. Something like "We've heard from Omark that he was offered close to the league minimum - what's the Oilers' side of the story?"

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04-17-2009, 08:52 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Narnia View Post
He was drafted in the 4th round. Fourth rounders do not deserve rookie max contracts. I believe he didn't want to play in the AHL and wanted a guarantee he'd be in the NHL.
Any other team drafts a Omark in the 4th and thanks their lucky stars he was still available and that their 4th rounder is playing like a 1st rounder and happily sign him based on the player he showed himself to be, not what he was shamefully drafted as.

In EDM instead of thanking their lucky stars, they curse their bad luck that their 4th rounder is now playing like a first rounder and they will now have to pay a 4th rounder, 1st rounder money (and let him go to another team).

Only in EDM will they throw money at first rounders to play the 4th line, but balk at a 4th rounder who looks like he could play the first line soon.

We didn't draft Parise because we already had small talent that isn't around, and now they are doing the same things again.


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04-17-2009, 09:32 PM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeHockey View Post
Any other team drafts a Omark in the 4th and thanks their lucky stars he was still available and that their 4th rounder is playing like a 1st rounder and happily sign him based on the player he showed himself to be, not what he was shamefully drafted as.

In EDM instead of thanking their lucky stars, they curse their bad luck that their 4th rounder is now playing like a first rounder and they will now have to pay a 4th rounder, 1st rounder money (and let him go to another team).

Only in EDM will they throw money at first rounders to play the 4th line, but balk at a 4th rounder who looks like he could play the first line soon.

We didn't draft Parise because we already had small talent that isn't around, and now they are doing the same things again.
You don't give every player what he wants. That's what the problem was with that idiot Comrie. They gave in and then he wanted more than he was worth. Teams shouldn't be giving rookie max for every rookie. Why should he get more than Gagner who was drafted 6th overall? It doesn't work that way.

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04-17-2009, 11:17 PM
  #581
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Okay maybe not offer him the rookie max but how about more than half the salary a competitor is offering. Also how about we not say we have to many small forwards and say you can come to camp and have a chance at a spot if not you can spend time in the AHL or go to Sweden.

Now would that really have been hard to do? If the Oilers made a serious (not rookie max) offer a told him they want him to come to camp to compete for a spot and he still went to Russia I would look down on him. Right now the Oilers organization looks bad with this decision.

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04-17-2009, 11:51 PM
  #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teganandsara View Post
Okay maybe not offer him the rookie max but how about more than half the salary a competitor is offering. Also how about we not say we have to many small forwards and say you can come to camp and have a chance at a spot if not you can spend time in the AHL or go to Sweden.

Now would that really have been hard to do? If the Oilers made a serious (not rookie max) offer a told him they want him to come to camp to compete for a spot and he still went to Russia I would look down on him. Right now the Oilers organization looks bad with this decision.
How does anyone know that was actually said. Noone knows what was said. We only know half the story. We don't know the Oilers side of the story. Stop believing everything that coming from Omark's camp. He is painting the Oilers as the bad guys when we don't know what happened. Omark shouldn't be talking about negotiations in the public. Omark should be keeping his trap shut. With him talking about the negotiations, Omark comes across as having a bad attitude.

It appears Omark wanted a contract before coming to TC. Gagner and Hemsky came to camp without a contract and got a contract when they had a good camp. Junior players probably can do that but I'm not sure what the case is with Europeans.

The only person that looks bad is Omark making comments about negotiations and bashing the Oilers organization.

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04-18-2009, 12:00 AM
  #583
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I am pretty sure our GM has said that the oilers are to small and we need to get bigger. That is what makes that believable.

I agree he should not be discussing contract negotiations in the public but that does not necessarily means he has a bad attitude.

Most Europeans not playing in North America probably want a contract before they come to camp because if they get injured at camp they may not be guaranteed a spot back in Europe when they get back and if the team does not given them a contract they are out of luck.

Finally who looks bad is an opinion as it is for each person to determine for themselves with the information given.

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04-18-2009, 12:03 AM
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teganandsara View Post
I am pretty sure our GM has said that the oilers are to small and we need to get bigger. That is what makes that believable.

I agree he should not be discussing contract negotiations in the public but that does not necessarily means he has a bad attitude.

Most Europeans not playing in North America probably want a contract before they come to camp because if they get injured at camp they may not be guaranteed a spot back in Europe when they get back and if the team does not given them a contract they are out of luck.

Finally who looks bad is an opinion as it is for each person to determine for themselves with the information given.
Stop defending Omark's comments. He has a bad attitude or else he wouldn't be talking about contract negotiations in public.

Just because that was in the press conference doesn't mean that was told to Omark. Fourth rounders normally don't get close to first-round money. Omark also has to learn to keep his trap shut before bashing an organization in the Swedish media.

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04-18-2009, 12:24 AM
  #585
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I'll wait until I hear more details before I arrive at any conclusions. I will however speculate to what I think would have been a fair contract offer. Around 750 thousand on an entry level contract (mandatory two-way) with bonuses but not with the bonus structure built into contracts that you see in the top half of first round draft picks in exceptionally strong draft years.

If the Omark camp turned down that type of offer I would be the first to say have fun in Russia kid while we hold your NHL rights.

If the Oiler's camp did really only offer close to the league minimum on a mandatory entry level deal I can only assume management speculated or knew Omark wasn't ready for the show, and wanted to see what he could do in another league. That could be good management. Particularly if he wasn't going to make an impact in the NHL next season. Also, many of these young players are adverse to playing in the AHL. Young Europeans and Robbie Schremp in particular

I want to see Omark succeed in the KHL. If he does succeed in the KHL, I want to see him in an Oiler's uniform next season. Remember, he is a very young player and being a young player his potential as a hockey player is not close to being reached yet. It could still be half a decade or more before he reaches his potential.

The only worry for me is Omark rips up the KHL and he continues his career to never play a game for the Oil.

Does that sum it up for everyone?

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04-18-2009, 12:52 AM
  #586
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Scouting and player development were two aspects of the organization that Tambo indicated would be under serious review. I think he has already detected a problem with how we are dealing with prospects.

Hopefully, he'll add a bit of expertise when it comes to dealing with European players and prospects.
With the failed Omark signing, combined with the situation in Springfield, you could argue that that part of the club has had an even more disastrous past year or two or three (take your pick) than the hockey team itself.

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04-18-2009, 01:35 AM
  #587
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If Omark plays for another team in the nhl and flourishes, I will have a tough time still being an oiler fan. The move (or lack thereof) makes no sense whatsoever. Wont give a highly touted prospect the rookie max? Since when does money matter to this team??!?!? Its fine to pay Sabourin $600,000 to play in the AHL but you cant give Omark a 2 way deal for $850,000? Makes no sense.

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04-18-2009, 02:38 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by boopronger View Post
If Omark plays for another team in the nhl and flourishes, I will have a tough time still being an oiler fan. The move (or lack thereof) makes no sense whatsoever. Wont give a highly touted prospect the rookie max? Since when does money matter to this team??!?!? Its fine to pay Sabourin $600,000 to play in the AHL but you cant give Omark a 2 way deal for $850,000? Makes no sense.
You make no sense. The Oilers had to take Sabourin from the Pens when they traded Garon there. It was that simple. I'm also pretty sure there wasn't $600,000 left on the contract. Omark isn't worth $850,000 when he hasn 't proved anything. Just because of a shootout goal, fans are overrating this prospect. Thank goodness you're not the GM. Under no circumstances should the Oilers give in to every contract demand these players want. They got burned once by Comrie's demands and they're not doing it again. Fourth rounders don't get $850,000 per season. From rumours I heard, he didn't want to play in the AHL and wanted a guarantee he'd be in the NHL. Omark should be talking about contract negotiations in the Swedish media.

$850,000 is first round money as that's what Cogliano gets. Gagner gets $875,000 and there's no way Omark deserves that. Peckham was drafted in the third round in '06 I believe. He gets $535,000 in the NHL yet yet you want Omark, a player drafted in the fourth round to get as much as Cogliano who was drafted in the first round. It makes no sense to give fourth rounder the same salary as first rounders get. There's no rhyme or reason to give in to 4th rounders.


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04-18-2009, 03:35 AM
  #589
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Oh my God, Narnia, you are so unbelievably out to lunch it's painful. It honestly hurts to read your comments.

Omark hasn't proven anything? How about being one of the top scorers in the SEL?

Fourth rounders NORMALLY don't get the rookie max? Yeah, fourth rounders NORMALLY don't turn into one of the top players in the SEL.

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04-18-2009, 03:50 AM
  #590
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What a gong show thread, Narnia, even if I agreed with you I'd be turned off by your posts.

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04-18-2009, 08:47 AM
  #591
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Hello, greetings from Sweden.

I am watching Sweden vs Finland right now and I just love watching this kid play. After half the game he already got 3 assists, he is totally destroying the defenders in Finland. He has given Sweden 2 power plays out of frustrating from the defenders in Finland, they just cant stop him.

He has been MVP in just about every game he has played in the national team and doing more then 1 ppg. All this at a age of 22, it is just amazing and I really feel sorry for the Edmonton fans that they will not get to see him next year in the NHL. He definitely belongs there.

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04-18-2009, 08:51 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by HalleLule View Post
Hello, greetings from Sweden.

I am watching Sweden vs Finland right now and I just love watching this kid play. After half the game he already got 3 assists, he is totally destroying the defenders in Finland. He has given Sweden 2 power plays out of frustrating from the defenders in Finland, they just cant stop him.

He has been MVP in just about every game he has played in the national team and doing more then 1 ppg. All this at a age of 22, it is just amazing and I really feel sorry for the Edmonton fans that they will not get to see him next year in the NHL. He definitely belongs there.
I'm watching it too. AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGH!!!!!!!!

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04-18-2009, 09:18 AM
  #593
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Originally Posted by HalleLule View Post
Hello, greetings from Sweden.

I am watching Sweden vs Finland right now and I just love watching this kid play. After half the game he already got 3 assists, he is totally destroying the defenders in Finland. He has given Sweden 2 power plays out of frustrating from the defenders in Finland, they just cant stop him.

He has been MVP in just about every game he has played in the national team and doing more then 1 ppg. All this at a age of 22, it is just amazing and I really feel sorry for the Edmonton fans that they will not get to see him next year in the NHL. He definitely belongs there.
But...but...he's only a fourth rounder!

I'm going to be ill if we get reports like this from the KHL all next year! All the Oilers will get is an Omark sticky on HF.

Edit: The exhibition game on Sunday will be interesting - Sweden and Omark against Russia. Hope he makes the Tre Kronor so we can watch him in the World Cup and draw our own conclusions.


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04-18-2009, 01:14 PM
  #594
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You make no sense. The Oilers had to take Sabourin from the Pens when they traded Garon there. It was that simple. I'm also pretty sure there wasn't $600,000 left on the contract. Omark isn't worth $850,000 when he hasn 't proved anything. Just because of a shootout goal, fans are overrating this prospect. Thank goodness you're not the GM. Under no circumstances should the Oilers give in to every contract demand these players want. They got burned once by Comrie's demands and they're not doing it again. Fourth rounders don't get $850,000 per season. From rumours I heard, he didn't want to play in the AHL and wanted a guarantee he'd be in the NHL. Omark should be talking about contract negotiations in the Swedish media.

$850,000 is first round money as that's what Cogliano gets. Gagner gets $875,000 and there's no way Omark deserves that. Peckham was drafted in the third round in '06 I believe. He gets $535,000 in the NHL yet yet you want Omark, a player drafted in the fourth round to get as much as Cogliano who was drafted in the first round. It makes no sense to give fourth rounder the same salary as first rounders get. There's no rhyme or reason to give in to 4th rounders.
Wow there are so many things wrong with this post i dont even know where to begin. No there wasnt $600,000 left on Sabourins contract but pro-rated thats what they were paying him. As many posters have already brought up, omark has shown what he can do in the SEL. One of the top leagues in the world.

Then you bring up Comrie?!?! Dont be so naive. The situation is not even close to being the same. A 38 member ownership group pinching pennies with a $30 million dollar budget or a billionaire owner who says he will spend to the cap every year.

Who cares what round the players were drafted? Since when does that determine value or pay?? I guess because Datsyuk was drafted in the 6th round he should get paid $1 million per year for the rest of his career. Makes sense to me. Same goes with Zetterberg. (7th round). Good thing your not GM or you give first round players the maximum salary every year and trade every other pick.

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04-18-2009, 02:38 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by boopronger View Post
Wow there are so many things wrong with this post i dont even know where to begin. No there wasnt $600,000 left on Sabourins contract but pro-rated thats what they were paying him. As many posters have already brought up, omark has shown what he can do in the SEL. One of the top leagues in the world.

You're wrong. The contract was $512,000, not $600,000. They weren't paying him that. Most of that contract was paid by the Pens. The Oilers paid him $33,000 as that is what was left on the contract when they got him from the Pens. The cap hit was $512,000. Go to NHL Numbers if you don't believe it.

Then you bring up Comrie?!?! Dont be so naive. The situation is not even close to being the same. A 38 member ownership group pinching pennies with a $30 million dollar budget or a billionaire owner who says he will spend to the cap every year.

Comrie was drafted in the third round and demanded first round money. There's no difference. The Oilers nor any team in the NHL should give in to players demands. We saw the problem the Oilers had with Comrie afterwards. The same thing could happen with Omark.

Who cares what round the players were drafted? Since when does that determine value or pay?? I guess because Datsyuk was drafted in the 6th round he should get paid $1 million per year for the rest of his career. Makes sense to me. Same goes with Zetterberg. (7th round). Good thing your not GM or you give first round players the maximum salary every year and trade every other pick.
We're talking about entry-level contracts, not contracts later in these players careers. Omark hasn't played one game in the NHL, yet posters are treating him like he's Wayne Gretzky. He's not Wayne Gretzky. No one is. Theo Peckham was drafted in the third round and if he makes the NHL will get $535,000. Why should Omark, a player drafted in the fourth round get the same as you suggest $850,000 as Cogs, a player drafted in the first round. There is a rookie max in the NHL and Omark shouldn't be getting the same as first rounders. I don't care how good a player is, he shouldn't be demanding first round money.

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04-18-2009, 03:44 PM
  #596
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We're talking about entry-level contracts, not contracts later in these players careers. Omark hasn't played one game in the NHL, yet posters are treating him like he's Wayne Gretzky. He's not Wayne Gretzky. No one is. Theo Peckham was drafted in the third round and if he makes the NHL will get $535,000. Why should Omark, a player drafted in the fourth round get the same as you suggest $850,000 as Cogs, a player drafted in the first round. There is a rookie max in the NHL and Omark shouldn't be getting the same as first rounders. I don't care how good a player is, he shouldn't be demanding first round money.
Here is a question that might be relevant. Suppose that Omark was to go back into the draft this year (I know he does not, this is just hypothetical) and made it clear that he wanted a shot at the NHL in 2010-2011. What round do you think he might be drafted in?

Whether or not the Oilers see Omark as part of their future is something that will eventually come out. But you cannot remain a slave to the decisions you made about players year before and ignore any new information if you want to be succesful. Omark may never be an NHL star but his stock has surely risen. Performing at an elite level against professionals must be at least as good as dominating 17 and 18 year olds.

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04-18-2009, 03:53 PM
  #597
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How can we make room for Omark when we have blue chip prospects like Pouliot, Brule, Potulny, Shremp, JFJ, and Reddox?

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04-18-2009, 03:56 PM
  #598
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We're talking about entry-level contracts, not contracts later in these players careers. Omark hasn't played one game in the NHL, yet posters are treating him like he's Wayne Gretzky. He's not Wayne Gretzky. No one is. Theo Peckham was drafted in the third round and if he makes the NHL will get $535,000. Why should Omark, a player drafted in the fourth round get the same as you suggest $850,000 as Cogs, a player drafted in the first round. There is a rookie max in the NHL and Omark shouldn't be getting the same as first rounders. I don't care how good a player is, he shouldn't be demanding first round money.
Obviously there has to be some middle ground. I like Narnia's hard line stance, and it is needed if any debate about Omark is to be had, and I will give Narnia this, Omark does appear to me as a high strung young player. He would have to be to dominate in a high caliber adult league at such a young age and as a small player. He probably needs to put on some weight and learn a little more savy before he can compete in the much more physical NHL, let's not forget the smaller ice surface in the NHL, the one major drawback of him spending a season in the KHL and Omark not coming over to North America.

I think Omark dominating the SEL in scoring gives him more negotiating leverage than a player coming out of the CHL or college ranks. Thus comparing his contract negotiation to Theo Peckham's is not really a starting point regardless of where he was drafted. Neither is him getting paid as a upper echelon 1st rounder at this point in my opinion.

In my estimation he should be able to receive a contract in the range of a high second rounder at this point in his career. That is what his excellent SEL season has earned him. If he wasn't offered this type of contract perhaps it's because management believes he needs another year of development before he can make an impact in the NHL.

He is a young player. Let's see what he can do at the Worlds, then let's see what he can do in the KHL. It's a no lose situation for the Oilers as long as they keep the flow of communication going. Remember, we do stand to hold his NHL rights for a very long time.

If Omark can dominate the KHL as he did the SEL then great. His negotiation leverage for an NHL contract has increased. If he can dominate the KHL at the age of 23 then I would say he has earned the right to look for close to the rookie max on an entry level contract.


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04-18-2009, 04:19 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by the word View Post
Obviously there has to be some middle ground. I like Narnia's hard line stance, and it is needed if any debate about Omark is to be had, and I will give Narnia this, Omark does appear to me as a high strung young player. He would have to be to dominate in a high caliber adult league at such a young age and as a small player. He probably needs to put on some weight and learn a little more savy before he can compete in the much more physical NHL, let's not forget the smaller ice surface in the NHL, the one major drawback of him spending a season in the KHL and Omark not coming over to North America.

I think Omark dominating the SEL in scoring gives him more negotiating leverage than a player coming out of the CHL or college ranks. Thus comparing his contract negotiation to Theo Peckham's is not really a starting point regardless of where he was drafted. Neither is him getting paid as a upper echelon 1st rounder at this point in my opinion.

In my estimation he should be able to receive a contract in the range of a high second rounder at this point in his career. That is what his excellent SEL season has earned him. If he wasn't offered this type of contract perhaps it's because management believes he needs another year of development before he can make an impact in the NHL.

He is a young player. Let's see what he can do at the Worlds, then let's see what he can do in the KHL. It's a no lose situation for the Oilers as long as they keep the flow of communication going. Remember, we do stand to hold his NHL rights for a very long time.

If Omark can dominate the KHL as he did the SEL then great. His negotiation leverage for an NHL contract has increased. If he can dominate the KHL at the age of 23 then I would say he has earned the right to look for close to the rookie max on an entry level contract.
By all reports we heard, Omark was asking for rookie max and that's where I believe the negotiations broke down. Another thing I don't like about Omark is talking about contract negotiations and bashing the Oilers at this. Omark shouldn't have done that. Negotiations are supposed to be confidential and he talked about it publicly.

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04-18-2009, 05:43 PM
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MerryJ99
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I am still not sure what all of the hoopla is about, Tambo has stated that he wants to get bigger, so that is one strike against Omark at the moment, and the Oilers retain his rights still so really let him go to the KHL which is a step above the AHL and the SEL and lets see what he can do there? He has an opt out after his first year if he wants to come to the NHL, but from reading what he has said in the articles and from what his agent said, the offer from the Oilers was fair but the KHL was guaranteeing him over a million for the year, so he took the money and is playing there. If he comes to the NHL he will be on an entry level deal which is a two way deal and could be sent down to the AHL and would play for under 100K more than likely. What would you choose if you had a choice?

Again lets see what he does in a much tougher league than what he is in right now then see if he is deserving of a large Rookie deal... I could just imagine what would happen if Tambo gave him the maximum and he turns out to be a bust, well I guess you could always bury him in the minor and have him go back to the KHL or SEL in that case. All I know is that there is no way the Oilers could have come close to matching the deal that he got in the KHL.

and he really shouldn't talk to the media anymore because he is making himself out to look like a whiny kid that didn't get his way. A bad attitude is not what one wants to have as a label. Making contract negotiations public is not the best thing to do, it could backfire on him.

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