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Andrei Markov: The best Habs defenseman since Larry Robinson?

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Old
04-19-2009, 12:35 PM
  #1
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Andrei Markov: The best Habs defenseman since Larry Robinson?

The picture is very clear

The Habs have not won a game since Markov went down with injury in Toronto, Saturday, April 4th.

We are now 0 for 6... which is only 1 point out of a possible 12!!!

The Habs were edged off the scoresheet in most of those games... not decimated.

Right now, at 1 point out of a possible 12, our record looks terrible!

Its hard to believe that Demers has actually vocally suggested trading Markov in a package for Lecavalier.

???????

Markov is irreplaceble.

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Old
04-19-2009, 12:46 PM
  #2
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Markov don't get enough recognition for what he does for the team. He is a top 5 d-man in the league, right now he is better than Lidstrom, the only I see ahead of Markov may be Chara and Green. For the Shea Weber lovers, he's still not a difference maker like Chara and Markov. Chara gets my vote for the best d-man because he his fast as hell, brings the physical aspect of the game to an other level, is a leader and a powerplay specialist with a great shot and great passing abilities. Markov do not brings ANY physical aspect to the Habs, that's why I see Chara ahead. But for the passing, he's on top of the list. What a crazy vision of the game he has !

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04-19-2009, 12:58 PM
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I would say so. A full season without him would make us look like the Mississauga Ice Dogs. We are like 5-18-4 without him.

EDIT: We would look like the expansion version of the Dogs

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Old
04-19-2009, 01:04 PM
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This is why he should get Hart trophy consideration. Habs would be something like 18-54-10 without him. And we have Schneider now, imagine if we didn't trade for him

Hamrlik-Gorges first PP wave!

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Old
04-19-2009, 01:14 PM
  #5
superstar436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citylife View Post
The picture is very clear

The Habs have not won a game since Markov went down with injury in Toronto, Saturday, April 4th.

We are now 0 for 6... which is only 1 point out of a possible 12!!!

The Habs were edged off the scoresheet in most of those games... not decimated.

Right now, at 1 point out of a possible 12, our record looks terrible!

Its hard to believe that Demers has actually vocally suggested trading Markov in a package for Lecavalier.

???????

Markov is irreplaceble.
ever heard of chris chelios

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Old
04-19-2009, 01:55 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by superstar436 View Post
ever heard of chris chelios
Thank you for bringing Chelios up.

How do you find he ranks next to Markov as a habs defender?

It seems to me he was traded for Denis Savard just as he was entering his best years

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Old
04-19-2009, 02:01 PM
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Kriss E
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Anybody that ever suggested trading Markov is an idiot. Unless we get a really huge return, trading him is simply not an option.

I argued on these board that he was a superstar and even made a poll. I was surprised at how it was mainly 50/50.

Markov is part of the top 5 D in this league. Our record without him just speaks for itself.

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04-19-2009, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Anybody that ever suggested trading Markov is an idiot. Unless we get a really huge return, trading him is simply not an option.

I argued on these board that he was a superstar and even made a poll. I was surprised at how it was mainly 50/50.

Markov is part of the top 5 D in this league. Our record without him just speaks for itself.
Sad thing is he'll never get Norris Consideration regardless..

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04-19-2009, 02:10 PM
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It speaks volume about Markov, but it also speaks a lot about the other guys on the team. NJ kept on winning without Brodeur, yet we can't do it without Markov despite having a ******** of talent outside of Markov, and I'm completely baffled at the fact that they haven't been able to win a single game without him, it's a joke.

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04-19-2009, 02:11 PM
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I like Markov, but what sense does it make to have all your hopes of winning on one guy? The Habs will have to re-evaluate this team in the summer and make sure this doesn't happen again.. At least We get to hope that things turn around in the play-offs but cheese, What kind of team folds when one player is hurt?

Let's pray Gainey can pull a rabbit out of his hat and find a way to make this team win without All the injuries (Markov)...

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Old
04-19-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Africa. View Post
It speaks volume about Markov, but it also speaks a lot about the other guys on the team. NJ kept on winning without Brodeur, yet we can't do it without Markov despite having a ******** of talent outside of Markov, and I'm completely baffled at the fact that they haven't been able to win a single game without him, it's a joke.
You beat me to it....

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Old
04-19-2009, 02:23 PM
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Kriss E
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Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
Sad thing is he'll never get Norris Consideration regardless..
Yea, but he will one day. It took Lidstrom about 10years if I remember correctly to win the Norris. But he had the luxury of playing with All-Star rosters.

Put Markov on the Sharks and he'll get Norris nominations year after year. He'd also end up winning it.

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Old
04-19-2009, 02:35 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Africa. View Post
It speaks volume about Markov, but it also speaks a lot about the other guys on the team. NJ kept on winning without Brodeur, yet we can't do it without Markov despite having a ******** of talent outside of Markov, and I'm completely baffled at the fact that they haven't been able to win a single game without him, it's a joke.
Yea I agree to some extent. We do have a lot of talent and should be able to win a game.

But Markov went down just as the team was starting to find its rhythm. We also lost Schneider at the same time and you saw it right away, players were shaken by that.
Not only that, but Komi/Hamrlik were having difficulties. Even when we were starting to play well, we still didn't have a 2nd line.
The Lappy line was playing way over its head and they cooled off during POs.

If we would have lost Markov last year, maybe we would have still been able to win some games. But this year, we became a very fragile team and when such a mentally weak team loses its MVP/Top Scorer, you can expect it to crumble little by little.

Maybe his return will bring confidence back in a lot of players, maybe it won't change anything. I guess we'll know in the coming games.

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Old
04-19-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by citylife View Post
Thank you for bringing Chelios up.

How do you find he ranks next to Markov as a habs defender?

It seems to me he was traded for Denis Savard just as he was entering his best years
If the habs did a stupid mistake it is not chelios problem and it should not diminish his value for being a sure fire HHOF and one of the top dman in an era where coffey, bourque, mciniss, murphy, stevens played.

As I said chelios is a true #1 dman. He can pass, shoot, hit, play against top opposite forwards, leadership. Markov is not and will not be in that category.

Let markov win 1 norris and then come and then we will speak.

You know why markov is so important to the habs.

1 - They have no other strength in terms of team composition ( goalie or forwards )

2 - He is the only very good to excellent dman. Komi and hamrlik are 3rd - 5th dman. Bring markov another good dman and he will be less valuable but as good as he is. In other words, he is so valuable because at defense, we do not have one who is nearly as good as him; thus, the whole defense unit relies on him and his performance. If he plays well the whole unit looks ok. If he does not play well, the defense unit looks bad. You need someone else to help him stablize the defense and that player is not hamrlik not komi.


Last edited by superstar436: 04-19-2009 at 03:22 PM.
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Old
04-19-2009, 03:44 PM
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timbitca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superstar436 View Post
If the habs did a stupid mistake it is not chelios problem and it should not diminish his value for being a sure fire HHOF and a top dman in an era where coffey, bourque, mciniss, murphy, stevens played.

As I said chelios is a true #1 dman. He can pass, shoot, hit, play against top opposite forwards, leadership. Markov is not and will not be in that category.

Let markov win 1 norris and then come and then we will speak.
Contrary to you, I do believe Markov is a #1 defenceman. If he wasn't, we probably could have managed to win one of the last 6 games he hasn't played.

However, you seem to make this thread to be more about Chelios' career stats vs Markov's career stats even though the thread is titled 'Best HABS defenceman since Robinson' and not best defenceman all around...

Chris Chelios (7 seasons with Habs)

402 GP - 72 G - 237 A - 309 PTS - 0.768 PTS/G

Andrei Markov (8 seasons with Habs)

571 GP - 74 G - 255 A - 329 PTS - 0.58 PTS/G

So it would appear Chelios' offensive numbers are more impressive when compared to Markov's on a per game basis, and definetely more when comparing his career numbers, but that's to be expected given how long he's played.

In his 8 years with the Habs thus far, Markov has finished on average 6th in scoring on the team, never once dipping below 10th on the team. No worse than 5th in the last 4 seasons. Chelios on the other hand comes in at an average of 7th if you count his 6 full seasons (to be fair I didn't count his first season in '83-'84 where he only had 12 GP)

However, I think someone could make a case as to the fact that Andrei Markov has been more important to the Habs than Chelios especially since he played all of his career thus far on much worse teams than Chelios did with Montreal. I don't dispute the fact that Chelios is a great defenceman and was great for the Habs. I just believe that Markov may be more indispensable to the Habs than Chelios was in the late 80's. And I do believe that Markov is underrated a lot by the rest of the league.

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Old
04-19-2009, 05:58 PM
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Alfie Turcotte
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Chelios and Desjardins were pretty good defensemen too.

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Old
04-19-2009, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Alfie Turcotte View Post
Chelios and Desjardins were pretty good defensemen too.
You might argue Chelios was better.Although he played in an EXTREMELY high scoring era... but he has also won Norris trophies. But Desjardins? No way... Carreer high 45 pts with the Habs in 1992-1993... We scored 326 goals that year...

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Old
04-19-2009, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by superstar436 View Post
If the habs did a stupid mistake it is not chelios problem and it should not diminish his value for being a sure fire HHOF and one of the top dman in an era where coffey, bourque, mciniss, murphy, stevens played.

As I said chelios is a true #1 dman. He can pass, shoot, hit, play against top opposite forwards, leadership. Markov is not and will not be in that category.

Let markov win 1 norris and then come and then we will speak.

You know why markov is so important to the habs.

1 - They have no other strength in terms of team composition ( goalie or forwards )

2 - He is the only very good to excellent dman. Komi and hamrlik are 3rd - 5th dman. Bring markov another good dman and he will be less valuable but as good as he is. In other words, he is so valuable because at defense, we do not have one who is nearly as good as him; thus, the whole defense unit relies on him and his performance. If he plays well the whole unit looks ok. If he does not play well, the defense unit looks bad. You need someone else to help him stablize the defense and that player is not hamrlik not komi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfie Turcotte View Post
Chelios and Desjardins were pretty good defensemen too.
Markov's value is relative to the rest of the team, got to be careful about comparing him to HOF's.

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Old
04-19-2009, 07:56 PM
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Sorry, I'm a Chelios nuthugger till the end.

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Old
04-19-2009, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timbitca View Post
Contrary to you, I do believe Markov is a #1 defenceman. If he wasn't, we probably could have managed to win one of the last 6 games he hasn't played.

However, you seem to make this thread to be more about Chelios' career stats vs Markov's career stats even though the thread is titled 'Best HABS defenceman since Robinson' and not best defenceman all around...

Chris Chelios (7 seasons with Habs)

402 GP - 72 G - 237 A - 309 PTS - 0.768 PTS/G

Andrei Markov (8 seasons with Habs)

571 GP - 74 G - 255 A - 329 PTS - 0.58 PTS/G

So it would appear Chelios' offensive numbers are more impressive when compared to Markov's on a per game basis, and definetely more when comparing his career numbers, but that's to be expected given how long he's played.

In his 8 years with the Habs thus far, Markov has finished on average 6th in scoring on the team, never once dipping below 10th on the team. No worse than 5th in the last 4 seasons. Chelios on the other hand comes in at an average of 7th if you count his 6 full seasons (to be fair I didn't count his first season in '83-'84 where he only had 12 GP)

However, I think someone could make a case as to the fact that Andrei Markov has been more important to the Habs than Chelios especially since he played all of his career thus far on much worse teams than Chelios did with Montreal. I don't dispute the fact that Chelios is a great defenceman and was great for the Habs. I just believe that Markov may be more indispensable to the Habs than Chelios was in the late 80's. And I do believe that Markov is underrated a lot by the rest of the league.
That's a fantastic brief analysis.

For me, the case is made for a Robinson - Chelios - Markov lineage...

but what a gaping, decade-long, chasm between Chelly and Markov

(Desjardins, Rivet, Souray, etc. are noted)

The Lost Decade can be traced back to the trade of HOF Chelios for the local guy


Last edited by Born in 1909: 04-19-2009 at 08:23 PM.
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Old
04-19-2009, 09:00 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by citylife View Post
The picture is very clear

The Habs have not won a game since Markov went down with injury in Toronto, Saturday, April 4th.

We are now 0 for 6... which is only 1 point out of a possible 12!!!

The Habs were edged off the scoresheet in most of those games... not decimated.

Right now, at 1 point out of a possible 12, our record looks terrible!

Its hard to believe that Demers has actually vocally suggested trading Markov in a package for Lecavalier.

???????

Markov is irreplaceble.
till he proves something in playoffs, I wouldnt make any comparisons with the greatest D in Habs history.. But he sure is a great defenseman, he is complete, his puckmoving skills are missing even more since we have very few in the line-up.. thats why I think a guy kid like Subban could make the jump as soon as next season, we badly need some quality puckmovers on D..

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Old
04-19-2009, 09:04 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Africa. View Post
It speaks volume about Markov, but it also speaks a lot about the other guys on the team. NJ kept on winning without Brodeur, yet we can't do it without Markov despite having a ******** of talent outside of Markov, and I'm completely baffled at the fact that they haven't been able to win a single game without him, it's a joke.
It's because a puck moving D is key to the transition game. You cut down the transition game, you cut down on the offensive production of everyone.

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Old
04-19-2009, 10:59 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by timbitca View Post
Contrary to you, I do believe Markov is a #1 defenceman. If he wasn't, we probably could have managed to win one of the last 6 games he hasn't played.

However, you seem to make this thread to be more about Chelios' career stats vs Markov's career stats even though the thread is titled 'Best HABS defenceman since Robinson' and not best defenceman all around...

Chris Chelios (7 seasons with Habs)

402 GP - 72 G - 237 A - 309 PTS - 0.768 PTS/G

Andrei Markov (8 seasons with Habs)

571 GP - 74 G - 255 A - 329 PTS - 0.58 PTS/G

So it would appear Chelios' offensive numbers are more impressive when compared to Markov's on a per game basis, and definetely more when comparing his career numbers, but that's to be expected given how long he's played.

In his 8 years with the Habs thus far, Markov has finished on average 6th in scoring on the team, never once dipping below 10th on the team. No worse than 5th in the last 4 seasons. Chelios on the other hand comes in at an average of 7th if you count his 6 full seasons (to be fair I didn't count his first season in '83-'84 where he only had 12 GP)

However, I think someone could make a case as to the fact that Andrei Markov has been more important to the Habs than Chelios especially since he played all of his career thus far on much worse teams than Chelios did with Montreal. I don't dispute the fact that Chelios is a great defenceman and was great for the Habs. I just believe that Markov may be more indispensable to the Habs than Chelios was in the late 80's. And I do believe that Markov is underrated a lot by the rest of the league.

Sorry guy, comparing offensive stats in these 2 different eras should not be attempted. Apples and Oranges on the stats lines.

Chelios is a warrior, I hate that trade to this day, but Markov has been MVP for years.

Tough to compare, but I think Markov is the best player since Robinson. I'd like to see Markov on a SC winner or 2 , but I think enough evidence is in.

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Old
04-19-2009, 11:34 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by earl the habs fan View Post
Sorry guy, comparing offensive stats in these 2 different eras should not be attempted. Apples and Oranges on the stats lines.

Chelios is a warrior, I hate that trade to this day, but Markov has been MVP for years.

Tough to compare, but I think Markov is the best player since Robinson. I'd like to see Markov on a SC winner or 2 , but I think enough evidence is in.
I know that, and it was more to just put it all out there on the table rather than make it a 1 to 1 comparison. I myself prefer Markov to Chelios for the sake of this thread, if only for what he's meant to the Habs the past few seasons.

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04-20-2009, 02:19 AM
  #25
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