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A Rebuild Plan

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Old
04-21-2009, 08:32 AM
  #51
jayman272
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Originally Posted by Magic33 View Post
I dont think we finished low enough to actually rebuild. But since we have so many UFA's, it will be a mini rebuild. I dont know if we need to rebuild as much as we need to change the style of players we sign. I think we need some tough, go to the net, not-soft players. Chris Neil ish.
god no lol anywere but mtl or toronto he would look good for you guys tough and has a little bit of talent not as good a fighter as george but can play a regular shift at least

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04-21-2009, 09:17 AM
  #52
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What I want is the Habs to keep only players who are able to take their game to a new level during playoffs. Talent makes you win during the regular season, but only heart and effort (along with some kind of talent, of course) can make you win in the playoffs. There are players in this league that are just unable, or who doesn't care enough to elevate their games (Jokinen, J. Thornton, Gaborik, Huselius, etc.) Those guys may be full of talent, but you'll never win with players like that.

Sadly, there is really too much of this kind of players in Montreal. When it's playoffs time, they just don't compete hard enough and are outworked by the opponent. The coach feels he has to make them play because of their talent or their regular season stats, but the result is that they become true liabilities on ice in a playoff game.

I think everybody knows who are those players in Montreal :

A. Kostitsyn
T. Plekanec
Maybe S. Kostitsyn, but I feel he may have the character to reach a new level when he becomes more mature

I really believe that no matter what we get in return, we NEED to get rid of AKost and Plekanec if we want to be a winning team. No doubt that these players would shine with another team in the regular season, but they will never be playoffs performers.

On the other hand, we need to keep those players able to raise their game in the playoffs :

C. Higgins (but as a 3rd line player)
A. Kovalev
S. Koivu (as a 2nd line center)
Kostopoulous (but in a 4th line role, NOT MORE!!)
Tanguay (I think when healthy, he can be very good)
And all the hard workers (Lapierre, Latendresse, maybe even Metropolit)
Komisarek (I really believe it was just one bad season for him)

And we need to add much more leadership and Stanley Cup experience in this team...
The "2nd line" is a joke. Do they have what, a combined 3 pts in 20-25 games?

These guys are supposed to be oozing skill, finishers on the team contributing points to the board almost every night. Gee I wonder why the Habs couldn't score more than 2 goals a night?

These guys NEED to be liquidated. Getting them off to Tbay as part of a package for Lecavalier would be great.

The Habs top 6 would be Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay, Lecavalier, Dagger, and Pacioretty. Yeah the last 2 are raw, but they have skill, also unlike Andrei/Pleks they hit into the corners and go hard for the net.

The 3rd line is OK. Had a great year and carried the team for a while. No they didn't come through in 3 playoff games, but that's not an issue. 4th line well, Metropolit, Higgins + Stewart are effective...BGL I'm not a fan of, clearly a mistake. Hopefully he can be ditched.

Next season (conservative estimates):
Top 2 lines would cost 25 million cap hit
Bottom 2 lines cap hit around 7 million
Goalies cap hit 3 million

Leaves roughly 21 million for D...
Markov + Hamrlik + Gorges = 12.5 million

TOTAL 47 million

So 9 million to sign Komisarek and Schneider is no sweat.

Should still easily be a few million to re-sign Dandaneault or Bouillon + a rookie (Weber/O'Byrne) on the roster as 7th Dman.

Would be great if Gainey can sign a few vets to discount contracts. Identify some guys who we would like to have wind up their carreers in Montreal and give them some sweetheart Detroit style retirement contracts:

Give Koivu & Kovalev like a 7-10 year 2.5-3 million contract. They'd be going under market value now BUT they won't be playing that long, so still be getting paid after they retire, but cap hit is off the books. It's win-win for everyone, player gets more cash overall, but cap hit is less for team. I'd offer this sort of deal to Schneider too (instead of a 2 year 4-5 mil contract, offer a 6 year 2.5 million contract).

If Gainey can save some money like this, he could upgrade a spot on D, sign a guy like Beauchemin instead of Dandenault/Bouillon.

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Old
04-21-2009, 09:36 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Plus he's the Habs' most productive forward.

If there's only one "must re-sign" guy on the Habs, it's him.
Hmm, the Avalanche and Flames didn't think Tanguay was a must-keep player. Don't you ever wonder why? Maybe his 19 goals in 89 playoff games prior to joining the Habs (and his 0 so far with the Habs) puts the lie to the necessity of keeping him. When the going gets tough, Tanguay is nowhere to be found. Kovalev, on the other hand, has always produced for the Habs in the playoffs. His 12 goals in 20 games puts Tanguay's mediocre stats to shame, especially since Tanguay had the benefit of playing with Sakic, Forsberg, Hejduk, and Iginla. Case closed.


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Old
04-21-2009, 09:42 AM
  #54
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-Get rid of Bob Gainey
-Hire a new GM, dont put Timmins or Julien Brisebois in the hot seat!
-Dont sign Koivu.
-Try very hard to get Bouwmeester.
-Trade everything you have to grab Lecavalier.
-Draft big and tough north-american guys at first, europeans second and very few Russians.
-Wait until next year and do whatever you can to sign Roberto Luongo.

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Old
04-21-2009, 09:54 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Hmm, the Avalanche and Flames didn't think Tanguay was a must-keep player. Don't you ever wonder why?
Colorado couldn't afford him and needed to get a D-man. Really, it's that simple.

Calgary... well, he was crowded out by the suck, as one Flames blogger very aptly put it.

Additionally, he just didn't fit with Mike Keenan's in-your-face style -- he wouldn't be the first in that case. Or maybe he got tired of being cast as a checking forward and carrying their second line while the Iginla line got all the glory.

Both those teams traded Tanguay not because he wasn't a must-keep player, but because he was a highly tradable guy: a great, highly productive even-strength two-way player.

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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Maybe his 19 goals in 89 playoff games prior to joining the Habs (and his 0 so far with the Habs) puts the lie to the necessity of keeping him.
What a shock, the pass-first playmaker doesn't have as many goals as the shoot-first sniper. I am profoundly troubled by the perceptiveness of your analysis.

I'm not concerned about his playoff numbers. They're fine. Datsyuk was in the same boat before his Cup run, and he didn't have the benefit of a 21-points-in-23-games playoff run that included a Stanley Cup winning goal.

Not attempting to re-sign Tanguay, who is possibly the Habs' best forward, out of some inane complaint that he is "soft" would be disastrously stupid. A classic case of Habs fan ignorance -- onubilated by style or other factors, and blinded to effectiveness.


Last edited by MathMan: 04-21-2009 at 10:04 AM.
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Old
04-21-2009, 09:57 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by airlouche View Post
-Get rid of Bob Gainey
-Hire a new GM, dont put Timmins or Julien Brisebois in the hot seat!
-Dont sign Koivu.
-Try very hard to get Bouwmeester.
-Trade everything you have to grab Lecavalier.
-Draft big and tough north-american guys at first, europeans second and very few Russians.
-Wait until next year and do whatever you can to sign Roberto Luongo.
Markov and Kovalev are the best players on the Habs. Lecavalier, Luongo, and Bouwmeester would be unavailable and if they were they'd be too expensive and their signing would strip the Habs of virtually every other decent player. Where did Tampa Bay finish with Lecavalier, St. Louis, and Stamkos heading a motley crew? Twenty-ninth in the NHL.

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Old
04-21-2009, 10:10 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Colorado couldn't afford him and needed to get a D-man. Really, it's that simple.

Calgary... well, he was crowded out by the suck, as one Flames blogger very aptly put it.

Additionally, he just didn't fit with Mike Keenan's in-your-face style -- he wouldn't be the first in that case. Or maybe he got tired of being cast as a checking forward and carrying their second line while the Iginla line got all the glory.

Both those teams traded Tanguay not because he wasn't a must-keep player, but because he was a highly tradable guy: a great, highly productive even-strength two-way player.



What a shock, the pass-first playmaker doesn't have as many goals as the shoot-first sniper. I am profoundly troubled by the perceptiveness of your analysis.

I'm not concerned about his playoff numbers. They're fine. Datsyuk was in the same boat before his Cup run, and he didn't have the benefit of a 21-points-in-23-games playoff run that included a Stanley Cup winning goal.

Not attempting to re-sign Tanguay, who is possibly the Habs' best forward, out of some inane and baseless complaint that he is "soft" would be disastrously stupid. Not attempting to re-sign Tanguay, who is possibly the Habs' best forward, out of some inane complaint that he is "soft" would be disastrously stupid. A classic case of Habs fan ignorance -- onubilated by style or other factors, and blinded to effectiveness.
I didn't complain that he was too soft, although it wouldn't be going too far to say that he is. There's a more compelling reason for questioning his value, and I put it in writing. He has been relatively unproductive and a luxury for the Habs. He never scored 30 goals and only once did he reach 80 points while playing on strong offensive teams. He was paired with big goal scorers, and that puffed up his assist totals. His playoff stats should have been higher: 54 points (and only 19 goals) in 89 playoff games isn't much when you consider whom he played with. I'd rather have the draft choices and the $5.75M back.

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Old
04-21-2009, 10:20 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
He has been relatively unproductive and a luxury for the Habs.
Relatively... unproductive?

He's top three in both goals and points per game, only being marginally beaten out, and he doesn't get as much icetime as Alex Kovalev! He has more points and more goals per icetime than anyone on the Habs!

He is the Habs' most productive forward! How does that in any way, shape, or form, equate him to being "relatively unproductive"? Explain that one to me, 'cause I really don't see how it makes any kind of sense.

He was a fantastic acquisition, an impact player, and the Habs would be crazy not to try to re-sign him.

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04-21-2009, 11:47 AM
  #59
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After watching the game tonight I can honestly say I have never been so ashamed to be a habs fan. This effort put forth was not NHL quality, ".
I stop you right there, while there were valid reasons to be sshamed about this team during the season, you just cant ignore how hard the guys are working since the begin of the serie, beside game 2 where we werent in this game, with a bit of luck game 1 and 3 could have turned on our side, we gave Boston a pretty strong opposition and Im proud of our guys so far in that serie despite being down 0-3, the prob is that Boston are an incredible hockey machine and they make us pay every single mistake or let down, sign of a great team showing maturity and confidence.. We have been playing without our best defenseman and some unhealthy guys as well.. The effort was certainly there but the Bruins are just calm, relaxed, confident.. Personally Im proud the way our guys played in that serie, but I just think we get what we deserve after a so desapointing season, we barely deserved to make the playoffs being a so inconsistent team while the Bruins were regular like a clock since day 1 of the training camp..

Where I agree with you is that we need to clean the house, its time to part with some vets and going in another direction.. Our kids didnt progress this year outside Lapierre, they have a part of responsability in that of course but the lack of good leadership is something that certainly didnt help.. Like I said several times, its Lecavalier or mediocrity for the next 2-3 years.. and Im willing to end at the low of the standing for the next 2 years getting some elite talents at the draft table, I dont wanna live another season like this one hoping to end 8th with our old legs, I prefer to see our kids take the lead and learn how to win togheter, thats the way they will improve properly, the second option is giving them some real talents, some real leaders that will push them to reach their potential.. Its not with a guys like Kovy playing outside of the system, playing alone, working the way he wants and when he wants that our kids will blossom in a good environment... Its not with a captain that doesnt support his coach we will move foward either.. Im still not sure about Tanguay, he is still young but isnt knew to have good relationship with his coaches and tends to play on the soft side too much, unless he takes a serious discount Im not sure bringing him back is a good idea.. Lang had trouble to follow the pace 5 on 5 this year, he isnt getting younger and even if he is good on the PP, a good person and all, he isnt the type of guys that will make our kids progress, I rather see 2 kids fighting for the same spot.. A guy like Lecavalier would make his wingers automaticly better, they would have to follow his pace, a guy like Beauchemin would improve this D squad a big deal as well..

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Old
04-21-2009, 12:03 PM
  #60
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You're out of touch man.. the bruins so called grit and toughness didn't do crap to win for them tonight
Sure but being tough like they are, it's not that they used grit, it's that they cannot be intimidated. At the start of the game for like ten minutes the Habs hitted the Bruins and it never bothered them. The crowd did not bother them. Because the Habs were like children trying to hit grizzlies. After the Habs were exausted by all the hitting, given they are inferior physicaly from the Bruins, there were easy pick-ems.

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04-21-2009, 12:10 PM
  #61
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Sure but being tough like they are, it's not that they used grit, it's that they cannot be intimidated. At the start of the game for like ten minutes the Habs hitted the Bruins and it never bothered them. The crowd did not bother them. Because the Habs were like children trying to hit grizzlies. After the Habs were exausted by all the hitting, given they are inferior physicaly from the Bruins, there were easy pick-ems.
We need to be tough ON THE PUCK! You can hit people until the cows come home, big deal. We lose all the 1 on 1 battles for the puck. It's like we hit for no reason.

Anyway, it's obvious our team is in complete disarray, no system, skating around like headless chickens, reacting to every single thing rather than anticipating, I can go on forever here. We don't make our opponents lives difficult enough. On that first Kessel goal, I think it was Hamrlik that should have finished his check seconds before that goal and it would have never happened. We just don't have a gameplan out there, it's so obvious.

I don't even know what to think about the off-season with the ownership, GM, coach, RFAs, UFAs, etc, etc, etc.

I'm just glad this season is almost done - what a terribly frustrating year. It hurts to lose to the Bruins, but they'll have a much tougher time against any other team they play against because we haven't given them much of a fight.

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04-21-2009, 12:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
We need to be tough ON THE PUCK! You can hit people until the cows come home, big deal. We lose all the 1 on 1 battles for the puck. It's like we hit for no reason.

Anyway, it's obvious our team is in complete disarray, no system, skating around like headless chickens, reacting to every single thing rather than anticipating, I can go on forever here. We don't make our opponents lives difficult enough. On that first Kessel goal, I think it was Hamrlik that should have finished his check seconds before that goal and it would have never happened. We just don't have a gameplan out there, it's so obvious.

I don't even know what to think about the off-season with the ownership, GM, coach, RFAs, UFAs, etc, etc, etc.

I'm just glad this season is almost done - what a terribly frustrating year. It hurts to lose to the Bruins, but they'll have a much tougher time against any other team they play against because we haven't given them much of a fight.
Great points, I echo that sentiment. The way this team plays they've got zero concept of a system, especially in the defensive zone. No wonder Gainey was saying that to start winning, the players need to listen to the coach. I know we're missing some very important players against a tough team, but some of the basic errors being made by the players are just embarassing.

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04-21-2009, 12:39 PM
  #63
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Too bad, you might learn a thing or two...


In all seriousness, we are lacking size and grit out there. We try hard, but it's not in their nature with the exception of a couple of guys. Heck, even our Lapierre line is ineffective against the Bruins' grit and toughness.
Yes, that's why we lost, because of their size and toughness.

It's not because they simply are more talented. No, that had a really minor impact.

Toughness had nothing to do with it. Not only are we missing key players, but Boston have played a well structured system that started to get in place last season. We on the other hand, have struggled all season long to find some type of system until Gainey fired Carbo. He tried to implement one, and just as it was getting better, we lose our #1 D (happens to be our top scorer) and our PP Point shot. Add them to our already injured players, and the ones on a cold streak. That gives us a team with very little proven talent.

Blaming it on grit again is just weak.
They simply are more talented and there system is executed to perfection.

Where it's mainly played is on Defense. They have a very effective D squad and the back check from their forwards is always present (how many 2-1s or 3-2s did we have so far?) and their zone coverage is almost flawless.
Now compared to us, we have a battered and panicky D. Mistakes after mistakes in our zone, bad coverage from our forwards and it seems the Fs are always too tired to do an effective back check.

Toughness, grit, whatever you want to call it, is the last reason why we're down 3-0 if you even want to call it a reason.

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Old
04-21-2009, 12:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Capitano View Post
We need to be tough ON THE PUCK! You can hit people until the cows come home, big deal. We lose all the 1 on 1 battles for the puck. It's like we hit for no reason.

Anyway, it's obvious our team is in complete disarray, no system, skating around like headless chickens, reacting to every single thing rather than anticipating, I can go on forever here. We don't make our opponents lives difficult enough. On that first Kessel goal, I think it was Hamrlik that should have finished his check seconds before that goal and it would have never happened. We just don't have a gameplan out there, it's so obvious.

I don't even know what to think about the off-season with the ownership, GM, coach, RFAs, UFAs, etc, etc, etc.

I'm just glad this season is almost done - what a terribly frustrating year. It hurts to lose to the Bruins, but they'll have a much tougher time against any other team they play against because we haven't given them much of a fight.
True. But the Habs are soft at everything. Too small, too nice, too weak on the puck and along the boards, etc...

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Old
04-21-2009, 12:50 PM
  #65
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I'll bring back my idea: what about Simon Gagné?

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04-21-2009, 12:50 PM
  #66
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Yes, that's why we lost, because of their size and toughness.

It's not because they simply are more talented. No, that had a really minor impact.

Toughness had nothing to do with it. Not only are we missing key players, but Boston have played a well structured system that started to get in place last season. We on the other hand, have struggled all season long to find some type of system until Gainey fired Carbo. He tried to implement one, and just as it was getting better, we lose our #1 D (happens to be our top scorer) and our PP Point shot. Add them to our already injured players, and the ones on a cold streak. That gives us a team with very little proven talent.

Blaming it on grit again is just weak.
They simply are more talented and there system is executed to perfection.

Where it's mainly played is on Defense. They have a very effective D squad and the back check from their forwards is always present (how many 2-1s or 3-2s did we have so far?) and their zone coverage is almost flawless.
Now compared to us, we have a battered and panicky D. Mistakes after mistakes in our zone, bad coverage from our forwards and it seems the Fs are always too tired to do an effective back check.

Toughness, grit, whatever you want to call it, is the last reason why we're down 3-0 if you even want to call it a reason.
Bruins have a system and talent but toughness is a big part of it too. These guys are for real! They have an edge to them, a killer instinct and team spirit that the Habs never had all season.

The Habs have had zero killer instinct. Our guys have lost fights all year, they're scared puppies at everything they do. Grit and tougness has a lot to do to be strong and hard along the boards and come out of it with the puck. You think a guy like Lucic is just good with scoring and dropping the gloves but is weak along the boards? No it's part of the whole package.

Habs have looked like kids playing adults all series. And that's not only because Julien has a good system.

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04-21-2009, 12:57 PM
  #67
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you cannot be more wrong, we are far from soft, we were clearly outalented tonight
A little bit of that yes but i think it's mostly outCOACHED. The Bruins had a good team plan, the Habs didn't.

Our biggest problem is our inability to stick to a team defense... with the D comes the offense, we saw this in the middle of the season when we owned for a little bit.

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04-21-2009, 01:00 PM
  #68
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Bruins have a system and talent but toughness is a big part of it too. These guys are for real! They have an edge to them, a killer instinct and team spirit that the Habs never had all season.

The Habs have had zero killer instinct. Our guys have lost fights all year, they're scared puppies at everything they do. Grit and tougness has a lot to do to be strong and hard along the boards and come out of it with the puck. You think a guy like Lucic is just good with scoring and dropping the gloves but is weak along the boards? No it's part of the whole package.

Habs have looked like kids playing adults all series. And that's not only because Julien has a good system.
Ok, that's ONE name.

Outside Lucic, Chara and Thornton, can you tell me who's hard to battle with?..Savard?..oh man that guy is tough!
Kessel?..Ryder?..Krejci??..Kobasew??..Bergeron??..
They're not any tougher than our players.

They simply play better, we've been lost all season. They are extremely well structured, we look like we're applying the system of a PeeWee C team.
They're patient with the puck, we're panicky.

Like I said, I don't think it has anything to do with toughness.
They just are well coached and extremely well structured.

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04-21-2009, 01:00 PM
  #69
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I want to overpay (either through money or trade) for one star. Just once we can afford to overpay and get somebody like Kovalchuck (doesnt need to be him, just an example).

We never do it and im sure that if we did it just once, it wouldn't kill the teams future as many people on here think.

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04-21-2009, 01:13 PM
  #70
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Ok, that's ONE name.

Outside Lucic, Chara and Thornton, can you tell me who's hard to battle with?..Savard?..oh man that guy is tough!
Kessel?..Ryder?..Krejci??..Kobasew??..Bergeron??..
They're not any tougher than our players.

They simply play better, we've been lost all season. They are extremely well structured, we look like we're applying the system of a PeeWee C team.
They're patient with the puck, we're panicky.

Like I said, I don't think it has anything to do with toughness.
They just are well coached and extremely well structured.
The thing is take guys like Savard and Kessel for instance. We think they're all talent but they play with more of an edge than say the Kosti Bros or Plekanec. And that's the difference. Krejci...heck we don't have guys like that on our team! A big center? Habs have been wanting to have somebody like that for 10 years! Bergeron...Hell he would be the toughess guy on our first two lines, easy. Did you see the play he made by hitting Lapierrre leading to the goal on the last game of the season?

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Old
04-21-2009, 01:29 PM
  #71
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I think it would be pretty sweet if these threads didn't start until our season actually officially ended.

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04-21-2009, 01:57 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by shealy04 View Post
I think it would be pretty sweet if these threads didn't start until our season actually officially ended.
I think it'd be even sweeter if they didn't start at all but I like your idea too.

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Old
04-21-2009, 02:00 PM
  #73
Sined
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Funny enough, his name is Bob too.

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Old
04-21-2009, 02:07 PM
  #74
m00ks
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Yes, that's why we lost, because of their size and toughness.

It's not because they simply are more talented. No, that had a really minor impact.

Toughness had nothing to do with it. Not only are we missing key players, but Boston have played a well structured system that started to get in place last season. We on the other hand, have struggled all season long to find some type of system until Gainey fired Carbo. He tried to implement one, and just as it was getting better, we lose our #1 D (happens to be our top scorer) and our PP Point shot. Add them to our already injured players, and the ones on a cold streak. That gives us a team with very little proven talent.

Blaming it on grit again is just weak.
They simply are more talented and there system is executed to perfection.

Where it's mainly played is on Defense. They have a very effective D squad and the back check from their forwards is always present (how many 2-1s or 3-2s did we have so far?) and their zone coverage is almost flawless.
Now compared to us, we have a battered and panicky D. Mistakes after mistakes in our zone, bad coverage from our forwards and it seems the Fs are always too tired to do an effective back check.

Toughness, grit, whatever you want to call it, is the last reason why we're down 3-0 if you even want to call it a reason.
I think this guy just became my favorite poster. Astute observation and I completely agree. To add to their system and discipline is their focus on execution. I noticed last night zone clearance were near perfect and were fluid. Fowards were always well positioned in all three zones. Passing was crisp. It really was something to admire. I hate the Bruins but was left very impressed.

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Old
04-21-2009, 02:12 PM
  #75
MathMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Krejci...heck we don't have guys like that on our team! A big center?
Are you serious?

Krejci is listed as 6'0" and a big fat 178 pounds! He's not a big center. He's a typical smaller skilled forwards of the kind fans complain the Habs have too many of.

Boston's offense is built around small forwards. Seems to be working all right for them.

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