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Old
04-23-2009, 10:41 AM
  #26
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny View Post
You're essentially saying Marty's in the top third of backups.

My recommendation: go look at the numbers. Then come back with more fine analysis.
That's about right, if some teams weren't stacked at goalie and others weren't thin. I have not only looked at the numbers, but I have watched about 4 out of 5 Flyers games this season. I am a goalie myself, and am a student of the position, so I have a fairly good idea of what I am looking at. As I said in my original post numbers lie, particularly in regards to goalies.

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04-23-2009, 10:52 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
That's about right, if some teams weren't stacked at goalie and others weren't thin. I have not only looked at the numbers, but I have watched about 4 out of 5 Flyers games this season. I am a goalie myself, and am a student of the position, so I have a fairly good idea of what I am looking at. As I said in my original post numbers lie, particularly in regards to goalies.
Please do go through those 35+ goalies you believe are better than Biron..not more potential but better right now.

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:11 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Price is terrible
Price is 21 on a terrible defensive team.

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:52 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Price is 21 on a terrible defensive team.
Think of him playing with our D in front of him!

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Old
04-23-2009, 11:53 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyguy10 View Post
Please do go through those 35+ goalies you believe are better than Biron..not more potential but better right now.
Not that I believe this, but let me try. By the way, not really in order, kind of, but as I made it I remembered some goalies, so its basically who's better than Biron.
1. Brodeur
2. Luongo
3. Lundqvist
4. Thomas
5. Nabokov
6. Backstrom
7. Giguere
8. DiPietro
9. S. Mason
10. Ward
11. Turco
12. Varlamov
13. Price
14. C. Mason
15. Khabibulin
16. Hiller
17. Harding
18. Miller
19. Fleury
20. Roloson
21. Smith
22. Quick
23. Rinne
24. Lehtonen
25. Toskala
26. Fernandez
27. Huet
28. Bryzgalov
29. Kiprusoff
30. Osgood
31. Leclaire
32. Rask
33. Niittymaki
34. Ellis
35. Halak

EDIT: Biron doesn't make the cut, but someone on our team does.


Last edited by FlyersCup08: 04-23-2009 at 11:58 AM.
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Old
04-23-2009, 12:10 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyguy10 View Post
Please do go through those 35+ goalies you believe are better than Biron..not more potential but better right now.
I think it is a bad decision not to consider potential when you're comparing what goalies you would rather sign to a deal. I think I am going to get some people calling me nuts based on stats, but shot quality and other factors in goalie stats are difficult to quantify, so this list is based not only off of stats but from watching them play as well. Here are the 30+ goalies with NHL contracts that I think could step in and outperform Biron, or perform equally and have greater upside.

The list is off the top of my head and in no specific order.


Martin Brodeur - Better
Henrik Lundqvist - The King.....better.
Evgeni Nabokov - Better, but not by as much as some think IMO.
Roberto Luongo - Obvious pick.
Miikka Kiprusoff - He is not what he was 5 years ago, but still better.
Carey Price - MTL is in his head IMO. Even with Biron, outstanding upside.
Marty Turco - Had a rough year on a beat up Stars team. Still better.
Marc-Andre Fleury - Better.
Ryan Miller - Obviously better.
Kari Lehtonen - Injuries are a problem, but better.
Jon Quick - Had a great year with the Kings, probably hasn't peaked yet. Better.
Steve Mason - Better than him now with big upside.
Pekka Rinne - Same as Mason, though slightly less upside then S. Mason IMO.
Chris Mason - Was great this year and a big part of the Blues playoff push.
Niklas Backstrom - Better.
Josh Harding - Better. Better upside.
Antero Niittymaki - He seems to struggle with occasional starts and needs to play to keep the rust off. Him getting the flu when he did and Marty catching fire were kind of the perfect storm for Marty to retake his start's job IMO. Niitty looked tentative in his play the rest of the year. Is his hip a durability issue? Maybe. I have been accused of being a Niittymaki apologist before, so I don't mind if you don't count this one.
Pascal Leclaire - Has had some freak injuries...still better.
Cam Ward - Better.
Rick Dipietro - Hurt a lot, and mildly over rated, but still better.
Alex Auld - Better.
Tim Thomas - Vezina winner this year I think.
Manny Fernandez - IMO, he's better.
Mike Smith - .916 save percentage and 2.62 GAA....for Tampa...better.
Cristobal Huet - Not a slam dunk pick over Biron, but better IMO. Khabibulin is getting up there so I don't think I would sign him despite his play this year, though you could make a case for his being better.
Craig Anderson and Thomas Vokoun - The two of them put up great numbers this year. Vokoun is an established star goalie, where as Anderson isn't (yet?). You could argue the system made them look good since they both had really good #'s, but I think that's selling them short......both better.

Guys I would sign before Biron that might not have outperformed him this year or be better than him today:
Jean-Sebastien Giguere - rough year was anomalous, I think he'll bounce back
Tuukka Rask - will almost certainly be a quality NHL starter sooner than later, probably close to Biron right now
Cory Schnieder - same as Rask
Jonas Gustavsson - again same deal, not counting him because he does not have an NHL contract, though he'll be in the NHL next year for sure and the Flyers should be going after him IMO

Guys on that are iffy:
Jonas Hiller - had a great year with Anahiem, but watching him play, I think his stats are probably better than he is. If he keeps it up I will have to eat my words.
Ilya Bryzgalov - had no team in front of him and nothing to play for, difficult to quantify on this year's play, has a similar playoff resume to Marty's, certainly has the talent to outperform Biron IMO
Joroslav Halak - only seen him play one whole game aside from the playoffs last year, I give Marty the benefit of the doubt
Scott Clemmensen - You could make a case, but I think Biron would have looked as good in the New Jersey system as he did.

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Old
04-23-2009, 12:15 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
12. Varlamov
20. Roloson
25. Toskala
30. Osgood
34. Ellis

EDIT: Biron doesn't make the cut, but someone on our team does.
Ellis, Osgood and Toskala were pretty pedestrian this year, to put it kindly. Osgood in particular.


Varlamov's A game is definitely better than Biron's, but it is too early to say he is the better goalie. He is a young goalie, they're notoriously inconsistent.

Roloson's got decent stats and my imrpession of him is that he's better when I've seen him a few years ago, but I haven't seen enough of him lately to make a case for him so I left him off my list.

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Old
04-23-2009, 12:32 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersCup08 View Post
Not that I believe this, but let me try. By the way, not really in order, kind of, but as I made it I remembered some goalies, so its basically who's better than Biron.
1. Brodeur
2. Luongo
3. Lundqvist
4. Thomas
5. Nabokov
6. Backstrom
7. Giguere
8. DiPietro
9. S. Mason
10. Ward
11. Turco
12. Varlamov
13. Price
14. C. Mason
15. Khabibulin
16. Hiller
17. Harding
18. Miller
19. Fleury
20. Roloson
21. Smith
22. Quick
23. Rinne
24. Lehtonen
25. Toskala
26. Fernandez
27. Huet
28. Bryzgalov
29. Kiprusoff
30. Osgood
31. Leclaire
32. Rask
33. Niittymaki
34. Ellis
35. Halak

EDIT: Biron doesn't make the cut, but someone on our team does.
I agree with about 90% of this list, some of it is a stretch, especially adding a guy like Varlamov who has played 4 or 5 career games if I am not mistaken? He played great in those games, but I wouldn't put him top 35 for that lol. Not a bad list though I won't argue it, but for what it is worth if I'm playing GM here, I am keeping Biron while trying to groom somebody to take over the reigns, whether it be Erickson or whomever. I love Niittymaki, LOVE him, I just do not trust his hip moving forward.

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Old
04-23-2009, 01:04 PM
  #34
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Yes, Alex Auld is better than Biron.

Fail.

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Old
04-23-2009, 01:14 PM
  #35
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Beat me to it Flyhigh.
i mean really?
Alex Auld?
LOL
Biron has not been the problem in any of these games. Maybe game 1, but who did show up for that one.
As far as this proposal goes no freakin way.
Montreal doesnt have a prospect I would want for JVR.
I want no part of Price in Philly here either. If the fans and pressure bother him in Montreal, he would not enjoy Philly if he has played the way he has played in his first 2 seasons.

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Old
04-23-2009, 01:28 PM
  #36
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I'm not a fan of Biron, but you guys are really stretching on some of those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yes, Alex Auld is better than Biron.

Fail.
You think that Biron is one of the league's top 10 goalies. I'm not sure which is more ridiculous.

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Old
04-23-2009, 01:30 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
I'm not a fan of Biron, but you guys are really stretching on some of those.

You think that Biron is one of the league's top 10 goalies. I'm not sure which is more ridiculous.
This is true. Auld = not a good goalie BUT Biron is not a top 10 goalie...fact. Biron MIGHT be pushing top 20.

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Old
04-23-2009, 01:44 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yes, Alex Auld is better than Biron.

Fail.
I think it is not by miles, but I have watched Alex Auld play a few games this year, and he looked better than Biron to me. His stats on a struggling Senator team are not much worse than Birons were on a legit playoff team. Also it is worth noting I never said I thought Auld was a quality starter, just that I think he is better than Biron.

The assertion that Auld is better is debatable, given the careers. I am going on what I see, and this year's stats. If this is the biggest nit you can find on a list of 35 goalies that guy requested, then that speaks volumes I think.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 04-23-2009 at 01:50 PM.
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Old
04-23-2009, 02:22 PM
  #39
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Biron may not be the reason that we are down 3-1 but he certainly hasn't done anyhting special to potentially put us up 3-1 either. Team wise the Flyers skaters have outplayed the Pens skaters in 3 of the 4 games. Fleury flat out stole 2 games for the Pens and that's the ONLY reason they are up 3-1 instead of us being up 3-1. Fleury has done what a top quality championsip caliber goalie does, win you gamesi n the playoffs where you should even be in the game. Biron stole us the series last year against the Caps when they were a young and playoff inexperienced team and against the Habs, Biron played pretty well but he didn't WIN us the series, Price just folded and gave it to us. Against a good Pens team last year Biron looked average at best and this year, he's against getting out played by the better goalie. We have better dmen than the Pens and better all-around forwards but Biron flat out isn't good enough to win against Fleury even when we have the better team in front of the goalie. We wouldn't even be able to beat the Rangers if we played them. Again, skaters wise we are better than the Rangers but goalie wise, we loose the series against them too.

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Old
04-23-2009, 02:31 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I think it is not by miles, but I have watched Alex Auld play a few games this year, and he looked better than Biron to me. His stats on a struggling Senator team are not much worse than Birons were on a legit playoff team. Also it is worth noting I never said I thought Auld was a quality starter, just that I think he is better than Biron.

The assertion that Auld is better is debatable, given the careers. I am going on what I see, and this year's stats. If this is the biggest nit you can find on a list of 35 goalies that guy requested, then that speaks volumes I think.
Auld is not better then Biron.
You think Alex Auld could have brought the Flyers to the conferance final last year?
no one here is saying Biron is an elite goalie.
But he is a top 20 goalie in the league easily.
How many of those guys on your list play in markets where there is no pressure to win. markets where hockey is not high on the popularity scale.
I would question the mental makeup of many goalies on that list playing in Philly. many guys couldnt cut it honestly.
I am not going to pick apart your list anymore for purposes of hijacking the thread.

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Old
04-23-2009, 02:39 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
You think that Biron is one of the league's top 10 goalies. I'm not sure which is more ridiculous.
This seems to be everybody's tactic after I prove them wrong.

"Hmm, FlyHigh wrecked my ****, why don't I lie about what he said."

I said he was top-15, not top-10. I proved it and I stand by what I said.

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Old
04-23-2009, 02:42 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I think it is not by miles, but I have watched Alex Auld play a few games this year, and he looked better than Biron to me. His stats on a struggling Senator team are not much worse than Birons were on a legit playoff team. Also it is worth noting I never said I thought Auld was a quality starter, just that I think he is better than Biron.

The assertion that Auld is better is debatable, given the careers. I am going on what I see, and this year's stats. If this is the biggest nit you can find on a list of 35 goalies that guy requested, then that speaks volumes I think.
Another ridiculous post.

Ottawa gave up 2.82 goals per game this year, Philly gave up 2.83.

Both defenses sucked, the difference is that Philly scored 3.17 goals per game and Ottawa scored 2.60.

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Old
04-23-2009, 03:08 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
This seems to be everybody's tactic after I prove them wrong.

"Hmm, FlyHigh wrecked my ****, why don't I lie about what he said."

I said he was top-15, not top-10. I proved it and I stand by what I said.
Ok guys... FlyHigh PROVED it. I would think that using flawed assumptions without backing it up through logical arguments and then disappearing from a thread after clearly misinterpreting a statement was just a waste of time, but FlyHigh says otherwise. (This is reference to another thread btw)

Also, you claimed he was borderline top 10:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Name me 15. I'll name who I think is better the past 2 years.

Luongo
Brodeur
Lundqvist
Thomas
Miller
Vokoun
Backstrom
Brzygalov
Nabokov

Guys I left off: Turco (sucked this year), Giguere (see Turco), Kipper (way overrated at this point), Mason and Rinne (want to see it for more than 50 games), Lehtonen (no playoff success).

I'd rank Biron in the 10-13 range.

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Old
04-23-2009, 03:15 PM
  #44
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Fischer, Halak and a 2nd?

Apparently Habs fans have found a replacement for Michael Ryder in David Fischer.

Tell me I'm not the only one who remembers Habs fans always offering Ryder, Halak, and a 2nd to the point where it became a running joke of HF.

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04-23-2009, 03:16 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepOrange View Post
Ok guys... FlyHigh PROVED it. I would think that using flawed assumptions without backing it up through logical arguments and then disappearing from a thread after clearly misinterpreting a statement was just a waste of time, but FlyHigh says otherwise. (This is reference to another thread btw)

Also, you claimed he was borderline top 10:
Sorry to disappoint you, but 10-13 does not equal top-10.

I don't want to get too technical here, but there are 10 numbers going up to 10, any numbers after that don't constitute being in the top-10. See where I'm going here?

Also, the thread got boring because everybody agreed with me outside of you and Scarfo and the guy who thought Osgood was better than Luongo.

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Old
04-23-2009, 03:17 PM
  #46
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Please trade for Josh Harding.

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Old
04-23-2009, 03:17 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Another ridiculous post.

Ottawa gave up 2.82 goals per game this year, Philly gave up 2.83.

Both defenses sucked, the difference is that Philly scored 3.17 goals per game and Ottawa scored 2.60.
Spending a lot of time not taking chances and sitting on a lead lowers GAA. Better Time on attack and puck possession by your offense lowers your GAA. Philly was the better of the two teams. This might be overstating the point, but this is like comparing the stats for two defenses in football, one playing on a team with the best running attack in the game that eats clock and just stays on the field, and another with a passing-only attack that sucks. Of course the one defense will look better statistically.

Also, I actually WATCHED Auld play the game. The guy can actually recover from a butterfly with out putting one hand on a knee and lpushing himself up like an old man getting up off the ground. He is not Hasek but he scrambled better than Biron, and he actually has a shred of lateral mobility. He is probably a softer on initial shots than Marty, as I think this is one of Marty's strengths.

Either way, I was asked for 35 goalies and I gave them (I even conceded some of them were maybes, and Auld is not in that group, though not extremely far from it). You want to get rid of Auld and call it 34, fine. Either way you slice it to put Biron in the top 15 of that list is silly.

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Old
04-23-2009, 03:27 PM
  #48
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I think trying to rank goalies 1-whatever straight up is ridiculous. The best you can do is sort them in to strata with no particular order within each.

So

1. Bona Fide Franchise Goalies:

Marty Brodeur
Henrik Lundquivst
Roberto Luongo
Evgeni Nabokov

2. The next stratum would be several guys who for a variety of reasons: age (too young or too old), being injury prone, too few great years, or occasional inconsistency, are step below being a franchise goalie:

Ryan Miller
Miikka Kiprusoff
Marty Turco
Tim Thomas
J-S Giguere


3(a). Next come guys who are too unproven (some combination of age or defensive system), but I think could very soon be considered in one of the categories above:
Niklas Backstrom
Carey Price
Marc-Andre Fluery
Steve Mason

3(b). After these is an enormous cluster of guys who are good NHL starters, or excellent backups:

Making a list, especially a ranked list of these goalies is a futile effort. In any given season these guys can be a top ten, or they can be mediocre. Biron is in here, with at least ten other guys. Teams with these goalies are niether better, nor worse for it.

4. This is for guys who are solid backups.

5. After that you have guys who have no business being in the league, think Curtis Joseph.

Martin Biron is not this teams problem. While not flawless, he is capable of getting hot and winning games by himself. And if we put a better defense, both system and players, in front of him he would look much better.

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04-23-2009, 03:32 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Spending a lot of time not taking chances and sitting on a lead lowers GAA. Better Time on attack and puck possession by your offense lowers your GAA. Philly was the better of the two teams. This might be overstating the point, but this is like comparing the stats for two defenses in football, one playing on a team with the best running attack in the game that eats clock and just stays on the field, and another with a passing-only attack that sucks. Of course the one defense will look better statistically.

Also, I actually WATCHED Auld play the game. The guy can actually recover from a butterfly with out putting one hand on a knee and lpushing himself up like an old man getting up off the ground. He is not Hasek but he scrambled better than Biron, and he actually has a shred of lateral mobility. He is probably a softer on initial shots than Marty, as I think this is one of Marty's strengths.

Either way, I was asked for 35 goalies and I gave them (I even conceded some of them were maybes, and Auld is not in that group, though not extremely far from it). You want to get rid of Auld and call it 34, fine. Either way you slice it to put Biron in the top 15 of that list is silly.
I'll go through your list.


Martin Brodeur - Obviously
Henrik Lundqvist - Obviously
Evgeni Nabokov - Obviously, but not by a huge gap
Roberto Luongo - Obviously
Miikka Kiprusoff - Debatable. Biron's save percentage in 07/09 was .918, Kipper's was .906. In 08/09, Biron had a .915, Kipper had a .903. Biron also has a better save percentage in this year's playoffs. Kipper has a penchant for the spectacular, but lets in plenty of softies. I'd take him ahead of Biron, but not by much.
Carey Price - No way he's better right now.
Marty Turco - I'd rank them even, Biron played better than Turco in 07/08 and Turco absolutely sucked it this year.
Ryan Miller - Obviously
Kari Lehtonen - Biron has a better save percentage in each of the last 2 years and also has a playoff resume. Kari was awesome in 06/07 and hasn't played more than 50 games since.
Jon Quick - Had 41 good games this year, no way he's better at this point.
Steve Mason - I tend not to trust the rooks, but yeah I'd probably take Mason.
Pekka Rinne - Same as above
Chris Mason - Essentially had 3 good months and 1 good year as a backup. Biron has two great seasons in a row under his belt, nope.
Niklas Backstrom - Obviously
Josh Harding - The guy who started 11 games this year? Better upside? Yes. Better right now? Not until he proves it.
Antero Niittymaki - No. ****ing. Way. And I stood by Nitty in 06/07.
Pascal Leclaire - Had one good year on a defense oriented team (Cechmanek had a .930 or so in 2 years under Hitch). No.
Cam Ward - Slightly better
Rick Dipietro - No way. .902 last year, hurt all of this year, showing some chronic injury concerns, major question mark at this point.
Alex Auld - No.
Tim Thomas - Obviously
Manny Fernandez - No, ask anyone that lives here, they hate him.
Mike Smith - He played 40 games, no way.
Cristobal Huet - The guy Biron outplayed in the playoffs last year? No.

Craig Anderson and Thomas Vokoun - Vokoun yes, Anderson no.

Guys I would sign before Biron that might not have outperformed him this year or be better than him today:
Jean-Sebastien Giguere - No way he's better right now.
Tuukka Rask - No track record
Cory Schnieder - No track record
Jonas Gustavsson - No track record

Guys on that are iffy:
Jonas Hiller - I'm not sold, we've seen plenty of back-up brilliance before.
Ilya Bryzgalov - Better
Joroslav Halak - No
Scott Clemmensen - No way.

So I have about 12 guys ahead of Biron for sure with a couple guys that could be argued should be ahead of him which places him right in that 10-15 range which is what I said 6 weeks ago.

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04-23-2009, 03:39 PM
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BringBackStevens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'll go through your list.


Martin Brodeur - Obviously
Henrik Lundqvist - Obviously
Evgeni Nabokov - Obviously, but not by a huge gap
Roberto Luongo - Obviously
Miikka Kiprusoff - Debatable. Biron's save percentage in 07/09 was .918, Kipper's was .906. In 08/09, Biron had a .915, Kipper had a .903. Biron also has a better save percentage in this year's playoffs. Kipper has a penchant for the spectacular, but lets in plenty of softies. I'd take him ahead of Biron, but not by much.
Carey Price - No way he's better right now.
Marty Turco - I'd rank them even, Biron played better than Turco in 07/08 and Turco absolutely sucked it this year.
Ryan Miller - Obviously
Kari Lehtonen - Biron has a better save percentage in each of the last 2 years and also has a playoff resume. Kari was awesome in 06/07 and hasn't played more than 50 games since.
Jon Quick - Had 41 good games this year, no way he's better at this point.
Steve Mason - I tend not to trust the rooks, but yeah I'd probably take Mason.
Pekka Rinne - Same as above
Chris Mason - Essentially had 3 good months and 1 good year as a backup. Biron has two great seasons in a row under his belt, nope.
Niklas Backstrom - Obviously
Josh Harding - The guy who started 11 games this year? Better upside? Yes. Better right now? Not until he proves it.
Antero Niittymaki - No. ****ing. Way. And I stood by Nitty in 06/07.
Pascal Leclaire - Had one good year on a defense oriented team (Cechmanek had a .930 or so in 2 years under Hitch). No.
Cam Ward - Slightly better
Rick Dipietro - No way. .902 last year, hurt all of this year, showing some chronic injury concerns, major question mark at this point.
Alex Auld - No.
Tim Thomas - Obviously
Manny Fernandez - No, ask anyone that lives here, they hate him.
Mike Smith - He played 40 games, no way.
Cristobal Huet - The guy Biron outplayed in the playoffs last year? No.

Craig Anderson and Thomas Vokoun - Vokoun yes, Anderson no.

Guys I would sign before Biron that might not have outperformed him this year or be better than him today:
Jean-Sebastien Giguere - No way he's better right now.
Tuukka Rask - No track record
Cory Schnieder - No track record
Jonas Gustavsson - No track record

Guys on that are iffy:
Jonas Hiller - I'm not sold, we've seen plenty of back-up brilliance before.
Ilya Bryzgalov - Better
Joroslav Halak - No
Scott Clemmensen - No way.

So I have about 12 guys ahead of Biron for sure with a couple guys that could be argued should be ahead of him which places him right in that 10-15 range which is what I said 6 weeks ago.
Great analysis. I agree with every single selection aside from Vokoun, who i view as perfectly equal to Marty

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