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Old
04-24-2009, 03:35 PM
  #51
Viller
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
And Jones on the third pairing, who has played one more career game than Coburn. Subtract Alberts, add Sbisa. and of course Timonen, and there's your six for next year, and it ain't bad.
Or substract Jones and add Sbisa, and we have our top6. No way in hell they keep a 3million$ pylon on the 3rd pairing. He was signed as a #3 dman and hes obviously not doing the job, injured or not... Id much rather have alberts physical edge than one hip Jones who blames every mistakes on injuries, its getting old. You hear Nitty complain about the bad hip?

You need to get a new mancrush sir.

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04-24-2009, 03:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Viller View Post
Or substract Jones and add Sbisa, and we have our top6. No way in hell they keep a 3million$ pylon on the 3rd pairing. He was signed as a #3 dman and hes obviously not doing the job, injured or not... Id much rather have alberts physical edge than one hip Jones who blames every mistakes on injuries, its getting old. You hear Nitty complain about the bad hip?

You need to get a new mancrush sir.
Sbisa looks kinda like a more Italian Jones, right?



Dude, I pick Sbisa (inexperience and all) and $2mill in cap space over Jones everyday of the week.

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04-24-2009, 03:39 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
They keyword in that sentence is Malkin.

He makes vets look like Pee-wee hockey players.
I don't put too much stock in that one, do you remember the play I'm talking about on the Pens PP in the 1st?

Malkin is a great player, but that was Coburn sucking more than it was Malkin being good.

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Old
04-24-2009, 03:47 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
See, I don't see why you guys are crying about the 2 on 1, yet nary a mention has been made of Kimmo royally screwing the pooch on a 2 on 1 in Game 4 which gave Pitt their 1st goal.
Go to the GDT...I specifically said that's what people should be talking about on that goal.

Of course, Timonen didn't screw the pooch on the 2-on-1, he just turned the puck over at the line which led to the 2-on-1...Parent was the one back on the 2-on-1 and forced an airborne pass that bounced off Crosby's stick, onto his body/glove and into the net.

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Old
04-24-2009, 03:49 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Absolutely true, but Carle makes one mistake on a 2 on 1 and we hear no end of it.
Actually, it was back-to-back games where he did the same exact thing. One resulted in a goal, the other did not.

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Coburn was also far from mistake-free in the 1st period, anyone remember Malkin turning him inside out and getting 2 great scoring chances?
There's a big difference between getting beat one-on-one (and Coburn has had big-time problems with getting burned one-on-one this year), and not knowing how to simply assume a position between two attacking players.

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Old
04-24-2009, 03:52 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Actually, it was back-to-back games where he did the same exact thing. One resulted in a goal, the other did not.


There's a big difference between getting beat one-on-one (and Coburn has had big-time problems with getting burned one-on-one this year), and not knowing how to simply assume a position between two attacking players.
So both Carle and Kimmo have cost us a goal with exceeding poor 2 on 1 play, Kimmo even added onto his by giving the puck away in the first place.

And it's not just "assuming a position", it's actually stopping the pass, Jones excels in particular at getting into good positions and then not making the play.

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Old
04-24-2009, 03:57 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
So both Carle and Kimmo have cost us a goal with exceeding poor 2 on 1 play, Kimmo even added onto his by giving the puck away in the first place.
Timonen wasn't back on the 2-on-1! He was trying to catch up along with Gagne. Parent was back on the play! If Timonen had been back there, it would not have been a 2-on-1, it would have been a 2-on-2!

His mistake was the turnover in the first place...if you want to complain about that, I'm right there with you, but it has nothing to do with Carle's technique or lack thereof in defending the 2-on-1s earlier in the series.

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And it's not just "assuming a position", it's actually stopping the pass, Jones excels in particular at getting into good positions and then not making the play.
You're not always going to stop the pass, even if you're in excellent position. Sometimes the puck is going to get through you...sometimes the guy is just going to make a brilliant play to avoid the defense.

My concern isn't that he didn't necessarily stop the play; it's that he didn't look like he had the first clue what he was supposed to be doing.

Same exact thing Jones does at times...Jones, specifically, does some downright bizarre crap defending 3-on-2s, or even 2-on-2s at times.

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Old
04-24-2009, 05:08 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by orangeandblack View Post
I think Carle has looked great, and have liked the move from the beginning.

Jones is terrible, Id rather have Sbisa out there over him.
Jones is so bad. He makes such poor decisions with the puck, not just when he is under pressure either, most of the time he has all the time in the world then he passes it to Malkin...

Carle has looked great the past few games. I dont know if anyone else was thinking this but I always felt that if he put more gusto on his shots and passes, and stopped the back-hand flutter passes that he would be a lot better. He has done that and continued to play well on offense, keeping plays alive. Like most others I think:

Timonen Parent
Carle Coburn
Sbisa Alberts


Would be a great lineup right now. Im pretty confident jones will be traded for a late round pick this summer.

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Old
04-24-2009, 05:26 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Timonen wasn't back on the 2-on-1! He was trying to catch up along with Gagne. Parent was back on the play! If Timonen had been back there, it would not have been a 2-on-1, it would have been a 2-on-2!

His mistake was the turnover in the first place...if you want to complain about that, I'm right there with you, but it has nothing to do with Carle's technique or lack thereof in defending the 2-on-1s earlier in the series.
Wrong. If you look at the vid, you can see Parent trailing behind the play, it was Kimmo that went down to block the pass and just didn't get it done.

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Old
04-24-2009, 05:41 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Wrong. If you look at the vid, you can see Parent trailing behind the play, it was Kimmo that went down to block the pass and just didn't get it done.
You're right.

Your complaint is that Timonen forced an airborne pass that wasn't on the ice when Crosby made the play on it?

Really?

If you're using his play as an example to defend what Carle did on the 2-on-1s...that's just asinine. Carle let the shooter skate right in on Biron and make a play...Timonen forced the man to make a ridiculous pass to a man crashing the back post and couldn't get the blade of his stick on the puck.

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Old
04-24-2009, 05:47 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're right.

Your complaint is that Timonen forced an airborne pass that wasn't on the ice when Crosby made the play on it?

Really?

If you're using his play as an example to defend what Carle did on the 2-on-1s...that's just asinine. Carle let the shooter skate right in on Biron and make a play...Timonen forced the man to make a ridiculous pass to a man crashing the back post and couldn't get the blade of his stick on the puck.
Meh, primary goal of a d-man on a 2 on 1 is to stop the pass, Kimmo didn't do it.

They both screwed up, anyways, the debate is pointless, Carle played a great game last night, let's hope he can do it again tomorrow.

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Old
04-24-2009, 05:57 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Meh, primary goal of a d-man on a 2 on 1 is to stop the pass, Kimmo didn't do it.
Carle retreating into Biron's lap:



And that one is tame compared to the one he played (but didn't result in a goal) in Game 2.

Timonen denying an easy pass and forcing a ridiculous saucer into the paint:



Quote:
They both screwed up, anyways, the debate is pointless, Carle played a great game last night, let's hope he can do it again tomorrow.
That's just it...Timonen didn't screw up in how he played the 2-on-1, nor did he look lost in trying to defend it. He's EXACTLY where you want your defenseman to be...sometimes you will get beat even if you do everything right.

And, yeah, Carle played a good game last night...doesn't mean other games aren't up for critique and the larger body of work doesn't deserve consideration.

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Old
04-24-2009, 06:20 PM
  #63
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Matt Carle is OK. Not worth his contract, but hes not a total waste of cap space.

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Old
04-24-2009, 08:08 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
The Flyers as a team have sucked at defending 2-on-1's for 25 years. It's pretty much an automatic that the pass is going to get through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Most teams suck at defending 2-on-1's. It's not exactly an easy thing to defend against.
To be fair, Kimmo is the only Flyer in the past 10 years or so what has defended the 2v1 fairly well. Even Desjardin in his last few seasons with the team didn't do it very well. It's not as easy as many make it out to be. Usually when you defend it well it's because the forwards do a piss poor job at making YOU look like an ass.

When defending the 2v1 you have to try and keep it simple. The Goalie MUSt take the man with the puck and as a defender your first job is to deny the pass. Second, if you can, you try to push the guy with the puck to the outside forcing him to shoot from a bad angle. To often dmen try to play the puck carrier too much and let the pass get through. Then the goalie has to go post to post to civer the other guy when he's snapping off the one-timer. And heaven forbit the dman gets twisted around trying to get back to the forward who just got the puck and that guy just passes it right back to the first guy because the dman almost always falls on his ass he's spinning so much and there's no way in hell the goalie can get back across to the other post again.

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Old
04-25-2009, 06:09 AM
  #65
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Having Parent, Sbisa, Coburn, and Carle is a HELLUVA lot of youth in your top 6. I don't mind this, I'm willing to let these guys develop as I think they'll all be very good players, but they are going to be brutal at times.

We really need to deal Randy Jones. I don't think he's nearly as bad as most do, but he's just too big of a cap hit for a 5th defenseman.

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04-25-2009, 06:58 AM
  #66
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I still don't want any part of him after this year.

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Old
04-25-2009, 07:26 AM
  #67
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So while we're all about Matt Carle apparently... why isn't anyone going nuts about how great Alberts is? My point here is that neither of them are great defencemen, they're playing well now because it's the playoffs and a lot of people that aren't huge contributers in the regular season start to shine in the playoffs.

Now everyone thinks we should keep Carle next year because he's finally able to defend in the playoffs? What happens next year when that cap space he fills is still there and he's back to lacking any urgency and making lazy mistakes?

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04-25-2009, 07:55 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE BETTMAN View Post
So while we're all about Matt Carle apparently... why isn't anyone going nuts about how great Alberts is? My point here is that neither of them are great defencemen, they're playing well now because it's the playoffs and a lot of people that aren't huge contributers in the regular season start to shine in the playoffs.

Now everyone thinks we should keep Carle next year because he's finally able to defend in the playoffs? What happens next year when that cap space he fills is still there and he's back to lacking any urgency and making lazy mistakes?
I think keeping Carle is a smart thing to do at this point. Sometimes, the playoffs are a coming out party of sorts for players. I think this is Carle's coming out party. In San Jose, he was expected to be a number one defenseman and when he didn't live up to expectations, Ron Wilson literally threw him under a bus. Carle then goes to Tampa Bay where they have basically zero clue what's going on there. Finally, he's moved to Philadelphia where he's not expected to be the top guy, but he's expected to contribute.

Carle's first ten games in Philadelphia, he plays great. He logs lots of ice time and he's helped the transition game. I noticed the fall out once Jones came back and Stevens was trying to fit Jones into the lineup. Carle bounced around from linemate to linemate while they experimented with who would work best with Jones. That's when Carle's play started to falter. If there's one thing that really annoys me about all Philadelphia coaches is that if something's working, it's usually broken up after awhile for no apparent reason. (see how well Lupul and Richards played last year, yet for some reason, Stevens broke up that line and Lupul played with Metropolit for an extended period of time - good way to waste talent).

Anyways, I think the Carle we're seeing in the playoffs is the real Matt Carle. He's also at the stage in his career where players really begin to skyrocket to the next level. He'll be in his fourth season this fall and that's when a majority of players really begin to hit stride (third/fourth seasons seem to be the rule of thumb). I'd say getting rid of Carle now is a big mistake.

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Old
04-25-2009, 08:48 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE BETTMAN View Post
So while we're all about Matt Carle apparently... why isn't anyone going nuts about how great Alberts is? My point here is that neither of them are great defencemen, they're playing well now because it's the playoffs and a lot of people that aren't huge contributers in the regular season start to shine in the playoffs.

Now everyone thinks we should keep Carle next year because he's finally able to defend in the playoffs? What happens next year when that cap space he fills is still there and he's back to lacking any urgency and making lazy mistakes?



I love AA, we need a little salt to go with all the sugar on our blue line. I cringe sometimes when he gaffs, but there's always been at least one or two defensemen on this team that've made me do that.
I've warmed up to Carle quite a bit since the trade, but for the life of me can't understand how a defenseman with his skill level can lose so many pucks in his skates.

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04-25-2009, 08:59 AM
  #70
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Alberts has gaffs, but what number 6 doesnt? As long as he doesnt ask for more than 1.5 million I'd say we keep him

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04-25-2009, 09:11 AM
  #71
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We need Matt Carle, especially if we are going to move Jones. We can't move both of them because in the event Alberts leaves we are then left with 4 dmen. I don't won't to see him gone at all. If we move him we will once again need a puck moving defensemen. Its basically down to who would you rather have Sbisa replace Jones or Carle, and Matt Carle is a lot better than Randy Jones.

He definitely makes mistakes, but he is also young and an offensive defensmen. All offensive dmen make mistakes. His biggest problem is he is paired with Coburn who is also young, and also a guy who likes to jump up in the play. Carle would be much better off paired with Parent next year, IF Parent matures enough through these playoffs and the offseason.

Timonen- Coburn
Carle- Parent
Sbisa- Vet Stay at Home D
Alberts

I think thats a solid lineup. We are too young on D, we need another vet, and preferably one who just plays D and is a nasty mother****er. That lineup gives us one of the best top pairs in the East and a bottom 4 of 2 solid puck movers and 2 solid stay at home guys, and a 7th guy who can actually play.

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Old
04-25-2009, 09:59 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Candiria92 View Post
We need Matt Carle, especially if we are going to move Jones. We can't move both of them because in the event Alberts leaves we are then left with 4 dmen. I don't won't to see him gone at all. If we move him we will once again need a puck moving defensemen. Its basically down to who would you rather have Sbisa replace Jones or Carle, and Matt Carle is a lot better than Randy Jones.

He definitely makes mistakes, but he is also young and an offensive defensmen. All offensive dmen make mistakes. His biggest problem is he is paired with Coburn who is also young, and also a guy who likes to jump up in the play. Carle would be much better off paired with Parent next year, IF Parent matures enough through these playoffs and the offseason.

Timonen- Coburn
Carle- Parent
Sbisa- Vet Stay at Home D
Alberts

I think thats a solid lineup. We are too young on D, we need another vet, and preferably one who just plays D and is a nasty mother****er. That lineup gives us one of the best top pairs in the East and a bottom 4 of 2 solid puck movers and 2 solid stay at home guys, and a 7th guy who can actually play.
The question is, who is that nasty SOB available in free agency this year? As well, if the Flyers can't find one through free agency and they have to deal for one, what would they have to give up? Abrasive, physical defensemen don't grow on trees and they'd cost a lot to acquire. Now, if the Flyers could get one still relatively young and not cost the farm, then I'd say do it. I know he's digressed in Colorado, but I think Scott Hannan would be a great fit here. He'd be that physical presence that's been missing on the blue line. He's still rather mobile and isn't afraid to handle the puck either. I don't think he'd cost the farm and would fit in quite well here. He'd be a great first pairing guy with Kimmo or a second pairing guy with Carle. It'd allow Parent to get a full season of play under his belt without being thrown to the wolves, so to speak. We'd actually have five dmen on our roster who could play in excess of 20 minutes a night. How crazy is that?

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Old
04-25-2009, 10:12 AM
  #73
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Id like greg Zanon as a number 6.

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Old
04-25-2009, 10:29 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carle retreating into Biron's lap:



And that one is tame compared to the one he played (but didn't result in a goal) in Game 2.
Carle didn't play that bad at all, and in fact, that play was ALL on Coburn. Carle did what he was supposed to do. He prevented the pass, and at the last second, when a pass was not possible, he tried to get his stick involved to break up the shot.

It rolled thru the 5 hole, not Carle's fault.

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Old
04-25-2009, 11:05 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Absolutely true, but Carle makes one mistake on a 2 on 1 and we hear no end of it.
It's not just one mistake with Carle. If it was, he'd get a break on that 2-on-1. He was terrible early in the series (don't forget how soft he was on Malkin's goal from the right circle) and his slow first few steps causes tons of scary moments. He's played much better the last couple of games, but he still causes me to hold my breath at times. Coburn has played extremely well and that has helped Carle's cause. Frankly, I don't think Jones has been bad the last 2 games, either; he's probably made less mistakes than Carle.

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