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Do you want Gainey as GM next season?

View Poll Results: Do you want Gainey as Gm next season
yes 245 80.86%
no 58 19.14%
Voters: 303. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-26-2009, 11:40 PM
  #176
FlyingKostitsyn
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I hope all of this doesn't happen. Fire sales amount to nothing good... How can you get good value for your assets if you clearly state you want to sale them as fast as possible?

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Originally Posted by TroyM View Post
Souray44 is my brother and I can guarantee he is just reporting what he was told by ol' Serge. It doesn't mean it is true or going to happen, and he's not saying that, just passing along what he was told because it is quite an interesting conversation to have.

I know my brother has better things to do than to trick his own brother and family and then this board with such a rumour. (Well he probably doesn't really have anything exciting to do but you get my point)
Are you, per chance, the older brother?

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04-27-2009, 08:00 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
susf
I admit I generalized here cause anyway Serge Savard is more of a Canadian than a Quebecois anyway.

Still, I got the attention and underlined the fact that some people here just don't want a winning team on the ice. This last sentence is really simplified, but we are not on the path the Red Wings took in the '90s.

Let's stop with rookies: let's build a core of veterants, surrounded by young blood.

As for ownership putting their nose in the hockey operations, well I have a feaeling this is what happened recently. Saku Koivu expressed in the media how ridiculous he found what Carbonneau did (bowling in Edmonton - and I admit from my point of view that it probably wasn't a good idea... but not bad enough to show no respect in the media-). Koivu is a well known friend of Gillett, and papa finally probably asked Gainey to fire his friend in the end. That is my hypothesis, and it makes sense.

Anyway, people take way to much about who will be owning the team: the important thing is that this team needs an other, and currently as none. Forget about Gillett giving 20% of his shares: would you put millions in a company on which you have no control??? 20% in a public company is not 20% in a private one.

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04-27-2009, 08:28 AM
  #178
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I chose yes for a couple of reasons.

#1) I didn't feel the injury problem or coaching issues were Gaineys fault.
#2) I think it's more valuable to have Gainey who has now learned his lesson about having a small team in the so-called "new" NHL, then to go with a new lesser experienced GM or somebody equally experienced soley because we had injury issues and Gainey couldn't fix them.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

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04-27-2009, 11:38 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I chose yes for a couple of reasons.

#1) I didn't feel the injury problem or coaching issues were Gaineys fault.
#2) I think it's more valuable to have Gainey who has now learned his lesson about having a small team in the so-called "new" NHL, then to go with a new lesser experienced GM or somebody equally experienced soley because we had injury issues and Gainey couldn't fix them.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.
Injuries aren't really Gainey's fault.

Coaching issues are definitely his fault. Carbo was his handpicked coach.

and learning and adapting to the "New" NHL is Gainey's job. Are we what 4 years from the lockout and he finally is grasping it? Heck we don't even know if he gets it yet because we are just starting Montreal's off season.

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Old
04-27-2009, 11:58 AM
  #180
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This rumor stuff is pretty tough to follow, since I believe the post about the info has been deleted somehow. I can't find the original post!

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04-27-2009, 12:49 PM
  #181
montreal
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Gainey has not done well imo. He was blessed with great prospects from the Andre Savard time and he's lost us a lot of assets in free agents leaving and playoff pick-ups that cost us youth.
What? Komisarek, Pleks and Higgins are the only ones on the team from Savard's drafts. Perezhogin, Milroy, and Ferland were other picks that played for the Habs plus there's Korneev who may come over one day. Not sure how this makes Gainey blessed with great prospects though?

As for lost assets from free agency, Souray, Streit, and Ryder, Huet? is that a lot over 3 years?

As for playoff pickups that cost us youth. Metro we got for free, Schenider we dropped down from 48th to 64th plus a 3rd next year. Who else did he pickup for the playoffs, I don't recall off the top of my head.

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Old
04-27-2009, 03:05 PM
  #182
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Well Streit, Souray and Ribeiro have played the all star game since they left here so...
Yeaaaah, aannnd, where did their respective teams finish in the regular season?

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Old
04-27-2009, 03:10 PM
  #183
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I see that a lot of Bruins and Leafs fans voted in this poll.

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Old
04-27-2009, 10:47 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I hope all of this doesn't happen. Fire sales amount to nothing good... How can you get good value for your assets if you clearly state you want to sale them as fast as possible?



Are you, per chance, the older brother?
haha, he's actually the younger brother. Oddly enough we have the same birthday 2 years apart. That's some interesting info we can all agree on.

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Old
04-28-2009, 09:17 AM
  #185
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Who else would we get as a GM that would know more about the players and the team??? NOBODY!!!

Leave Gainey as the GM and let him try to rebuild the team....if he fails and can't get the job done, then let him go mid-season or something, but I want him to at least get the chance to rebuild things first....he has the best insight as to what the real problem is with the Habs....give him a chance to correct it.

Just once....I would like to see the players take the blame for a very poor season instead of seeing a great GM like Gainey get the axe because the players he drafted or signed decide they weren't going to perform.

If the Habs fire Gainey, then they will be taking a huge step backwards. Gainey has done a good job building this team, he has made a few mistakes along the way...(hiring Carbo, signing Samsonov, rushing Price) but you can't always tell how things are going to play out when you make the decisions to sign or hire someone.

Gainey has the best vision of this team right now. He's been with the team for 5 years and he knows who played and who didn't. He'll make the right decisions when it comes to re-signing/signing players this off-season.

In Bob I trust!!!


Last edited by montreal: 04-28-2009 at 12:13 PM.
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Old
04-28-2009, 12:38 PM
  #186
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I voted no, but I would have preferred a "maybe".

No way to know what is really going on in his head, and he has proven to be crafty enough that I can at least consider that his post-season press conferences were more "show" than an actual reflection of what he feels.

if he really is that unwilling to accept responsibility for the failures of the team under his watch, if he really can't see that he has made some serious mistakes in both coaching and player personnel, then he's gotta go.

if he knows he's got problems, but part of allowing the admitted "distraction" of having so many veteran UFA's was to be able to really blow things up and stock the team with the type of players he wants to represent the habs moving forward, then I hope he gets to see his plan to fruition.

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Old
04-28-2009, 04:02 PM
  #187
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No, maybe we can get Bowman to coach/GM us, but he's taken.
You're the poster formely known as 'Cristobal Huet, right, Steve?

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04-28-2009, 04:07 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Kirk Muller View Post
Injuries aren't really Gainey's fault.

Coaching issues are definitely his fault. Carbo was his handpicked coach.

and learning and adapting to the "New" NHL is Gainey's job. Are we what 4 years from the lockout and he finally is grasping it? Heck we don't even know if he gets it yet because we are just starting Montreal's off season.
Sigh

We won't be able to say if any GM did as least half of most team's lineups were there before the lockout. Wait till it makes 10 years to see if a GM gets it or not, as the choices a GM makes as consequences for many years. If the cap goes down and BG and the Habs benefit from that, how can one say he didn't get it. See what I mean? Its way too early to tell.

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04-28-2009, 04:45 PM
  #189
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maybe for me as well

There is no question for me that viewed coldly in terms of asset management, Gainey has squandered some resources over the years, especially good young defencemen, whose presence would have alleviated Markov's absence. Starting with Streit.

I honestly think that some of these players, including Streit, were misused in part because of a revolving door of coaches with little experience. There are several Premier League soccer teams who think nothing of hiring a non-Englishman to run their club, because it is who is perceived to be the best candidate. So fixing things starts with finding the best coach, period, irrespective of where he comes from, provided that he can communicate with the players.

You can probably also add Ryder to the list of players who were mismanaged, in part due to inexperienced coaches, and in part due to short-term thinking in offering these guys a salary. From a pure commodity valuation perspective, you pay a player what he's worth, 3-4 years at a time, keep him happy, try to avoid NTCs, and get the most of him on the ice. The same argument probably goes for some of the current UFAs who may be looking for the first ticket out of Montreal. In stark contrast with Gainey's approach, a savvy GM should in fact exploit the fact that a player likes Montreal during a good spell, and offer him a contract sometime during his last season. Especially in a context where the playing field, in terms of attracting UFAs, is tilted in a manner that favors other cities at Montreal's expense.

That said, because of that last sentence in the previous paragraph, the same can be said about attracting an elite GM to Montreal. So if Bob learns from his mistakes, he may be better than his replacement. If he does not, it's a bit of a coin toss.


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04-28-2009, 04:59 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by NCarolinaMtlExpat View Post
There is no question for me that viewed coldly in terms of asset management, Gainey has squandered some ressources over the years, especially good young defencemen, whose presence would have alleviated Markov's absence. Starting with Streit.

I honestly think that some of these players, including Streit, were misused in part because of a revolving door of coaches with little experience. There are several Premier League soccer teams who think nothing of hiring a non-Englishman to run their club, because it is who is perceived to be the best candidate. So fixing things starts with finding the best coach, period, irrespective of where he comes from, provided that he can communicate with the players.

You can probably also add Ryder to the list of players who were mismanaged, in part due to inexperienced coaches, and in part due to short-term thinking in offering these guys a salary. From a pure commodity valuation perspective, you pay a player what he's worth, 3-4 years at a time, keep him happy, try to avoid NTCs, and get the most of him on the ice. The same argument probably goes for some of the current UFAs who may be looking for the first ticket out of Montreal. In stark contrast with Gainey's approach, a savvy GM should in fact exploit the fact that a player likes Montreal during a good spell, and offer him a contract sometime during his last season. Especially in a context where the playing field, in terms of attracting UFAs, is tilted in a manner that favors other cities at Montreal's expense.

That said, because of that last sentence in the previous paragraph, the same can be said about attracting an elite GM to Montreal. So if Bob learns from his mistakes, he may be better than his replacement. If he does not, it's a bit of a coin toss.
I,m not contradicting you only because you're an anti-poutinist (you bastidge)... but...

Ryder wasn't mismanaged, he played like chite last season while other young players on the club did great. And I'm a Ryder fan.

You can't consider if he's a bad manager if you don't include the good shots he did (which is truly lacking in your text).

Also, there other reasons why they don't re-sign certain players, other than performance and money they would ask.

Streit wasn't mismanaged, and wanted to stay last season. But what most people don't seem to understand is that he wanted to play permantly on defense. When he did play on defense, they had to put him on the right side, where he sucked dick and balls defensively. To have a performing Streit on defense, they had to put him on the left side. And the top two spots on D were already occupied by Markov and Hamrlik. Simply, you can't replace Markov by Streit. Markov is better overall. You can't have him replace Hamrlik, because then you would have two smallish Ds on the left on your two first pairs. And you won't sign Streit at 3-4 mil to play him on the 3rd pairing, especially when you already have Bouillon who can't play on the right side, and Gorges who can play the 3rd pairing for a lot less $ than Streit. What happened with Streit was purely pragmatic. Also, Gainey wanted reinforcements on offence, and signing Streit would'Ve meant we wouldn't have traded for either Lang or Tanguay.

Same pragmatic decision with Souray. They wanted someone who was better defensively, hence Hamrlik (they also tried to get Rafalski).

As for the coach, I think BG will take Lever which is a good choice.

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04-28-2009, 05:10 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I,m not contradicting you only because you're an anti-poutinist (you bastidge)... but...

Ryder wasn't mismanaged, he played like chite last season while other young players on the club did great. And I'm a Ryder fan.

You can't consider if he's a bad manager if you don't include the good shots he did (which is truly lacking in your text).

Also, there other reasons why they don't re-sign certain players, other than performance and money they would ask.

Streit wasn't mismanaged, and wanted to stay last season. But what most people don't seem to understand is that he wanted to play permantly on defense. When he did play on defense, they had to put him on the right side, where he sucked dick and balls defensively. To have a performing Streit on defense, they had to put him on the left side. And the top two spots on D were already occupied by Markov and Hamrlik. Simply, you can't replace Markov by Streit. Markov is better overall. You can't have him replace Hamrlik, because then you would have two smallish Ds on the left on your two first pairs. And you won't sign Streit at 3-4 mil to play him on the 3rd pairing, especially when you already have Bouillon who can't play on the right side, and Gorges who can play the 3rd pairing for a lot less $ than Streit. What happened with Streit was purely pragmatic. Also, Gainey wanted reinforcements on offence, and signing Streit would'Ve meant we wouldn't have traded for either Lang or Tanguay.

Same pragmatic decision with Souray. They wanted someone who was better defensively, hence Hamrlik (they also tried to get Rafalski).

As for the coach, I think BG will take Lever which is a good choice.
I'm not anti-poutinist, I'm a self-appointed contrarian of the PHC. It's true however that I don't eat poutine, which is why I've been expelled from Quebec.

I'll grant you that I didn't bring up Bob's good points sufficiently, but only for brevity's sake.He did very well to get Tanguay and Kovy for next to nothing. (Let's hope that he can re-sign those two...) As well as picking up Hamrlik as UFA (he is not popular on these boards currently, but he is still a quality defenceman... it's possible that he's been playing injured). I would characterize his record as fairly average then.

The Streit explanation is reasonable, although it does not exhaust all possibilities, such as asking Hamrlik to play right. As for Ryder playing his way off the team, I don't dissociate that from coaching, nor do I from being offered a series of 1-year contracts. Fact is, there are a lot of players who end up playing better outside of Montreal. Edit: moreover, this correlates with Carbo's Achilles heel: communication. Rewind and replay this scenario with a coach whom the players respect, and who has good communication abilities, give the player a 3-4 year contract and Ryder's situation might not have festered in the manner that it did. That paper airplane would not have been made.


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04-28-2009, 05:21 PM
  #192
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I'm not anti-poutinist, I'm a self-appointed contrarian of the PHC. It's true however that I don't eat poutine, which is why I've been expelled from Quebec.

I'll grant you that I didn't bring up Bob's good points sufficiently, but only for brevity's sake.He did very well to get Tanguay and Kovy for next to nothing. (Let's hope that he can re-sign those two...) As well as picking up Hamrlik as UFA (he is not popular on these boards currently, but he is still a quality defenceman... it's possible that he's been playing injured). I would characterize his record as fairly average then.

The Streit explanation is reasonable, although it does not exhaust all possibilities, such as asking Hamrlik to play right. As for Ryder playing his way off the team, I don't dissociate that from coaching, nor do I from being offered a series of 1-year contracts. Fact is, there are a lot of players who end up playing better outside of Montreal.
I admit that for Ryder, the one year contracts might've affected him and what happened to his brother probably also affected him on and off the ice.

But for Streit... putting Hammer on the right would come back to what I said... having to small guys on the left side on the first two pairs. It's a pretty huge gamble, as Streit is even less physical and more prone to hooking and tripping than Markov is, and who's to say Hammer would be good on the right side? AS also, we already had big guys on the right side with Komi and OB.

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04-28-2009, 05:27 PM
  #193
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I admit that for Ryder, the one year contracts might've affected him and what happened to his brother probably also affected him on and off the ice.

But for Streit... putting Hammer on the right would come back to what I said... having to small guys on the left side on the first two pairs. It's a pretty huge gamble, as Streit is even less physical and more prone to hooking and tripping than Markov is, and who's to say Hammer would be good on the right side? AS also, we already had big guys on the right side with Komi and OB.
Markov and Streit would be the same size as Duncan Keith and Brian Campbell. Whether it works or not really depends on the game plan, and I don't think that Carbo is a tactician enough to work one out that optimizes his resources...

Which brings me back to coaching. Elite teams get the best coach possible, in any sport. The Canadiens have been a training school for French Canadian coaches.

In keeping with the theme of commodity valuation, Gainey did not get much for Huet, and underestimated his value to not just the team, but to Carey Price, as a mentor. He then perpetrated a double standard that could well have alienated Halak, in the face of a crisis of confidence of his starting goalie. Just as coaching has a galvanizing effect on a team, even more so does its confidence in its goaltending. There are so many alternate scenarios there, such as not annointing Price as starter from the outset, and letting Price and Halak fight it out to back up Huet, re-signing Huet, and then dealing Huet from a position of strength in net.


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04-29-2009, 02:15 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I,m not contradicting you only because you're an anti-poutinist (you bastidge)... but...

Ryder wasn't mismanaged, he played like chite last season while other young players on the club did great. And I'm a Ryder fan.

You can't consider if he's a bad manager if you don't include the good shots he did (which is truly lacking in your text).

Also, there other reasons why they don't re-sign certain players, other than performance and money they would ask.

Streit wasn't mismanaged, and wanted to stay last season. But what most people don't seem to understand is that he wanted to play permantly on defense. When he did play on defense, they had to put him on the right side, where he sucked dick and balls defensively. To have a performing Streit on defense, they had to put him on the left side. And the top two spots on D were already occupied by Markov and Hamrlik. Simply, you can't replace Markov by Streit. Markov is better overall. You can't have him replace Hamrlik, because then you would have two smallish Ds on the left on your two first pairs. And you won't sign Streit at 3-4 mil to play him on the 3rd pairing, especially when you already have Bouillon who can't play on the right side, and Gorges who can play the 3rd pairing for a lot less $ than Streit. What happened with Streit was purely pragmatic. Also, Gainey wanted reinforcements on offence, and signing Streit would'Ve meant we wouldn't have traded for either Lang or Tanguay.

Same pragmatic decision with Souray. They wanted someone who was better defensively, hence Hamrlik (they also tried to get Rafalski).

As for the coach, I think BG will take Lever which is a good choice.

That's an interesting analysis of the Streit situation which I hadn't really considered/been aware off... I'd still perhaps argue that from a roster building pov, it's better to have a 2.5-4M (depending on what the real truth is about how much he would have signed for) 3rd pairing/pp specialist dman of Streit's ability than nothing... better option than having to pay Brisebois 1.5M and then trade away picks (for Schneider) to be able to replace the asset you lost for nothing, no?

in any case, my main frustration still boils down to managing the assets.

From Souray-Streit-Ryder, we got nothing... and we don't have any playoff success to justify hanging on to them until it was too late.
that is the troubling part.
All three were basically home grown assets (Souray aquired via trade, but he came into his own after several years with the organization).
Looking at successful franchises/GM's, I don't think that's something they let happen often, let alone 3 players in 2 years.
So even if there are reasonable/plausible excuses for why we now have to watch those 3 players star for other teams (in roles we could desperately use), as a whole it speaks to a problem with asset management, don't you think?

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