HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Tanguay deserves criticism

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-29-2009, 03:12 PM
  #51
Catch-22
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 974
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You need Generals and you need Soldiers.

Mike Richards is a General.

Alex Tanguay is a Soldier.

You need both. There's no reason not to keep him.
As long as you pay him accordingly.

Catch-22 is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:14 PM
  #52
Jigger77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominant Hegemony View Post
Koivu played with the SAME injury and still was a warrior. Thornton is a chocker and has repeatedly proved it.

And good thing you read the part where he said "dont give me this crap about not knowing what the extent of the injury was".
A. Didn't realize you were the team doctor. Had I known that you know exactly what type of injuries we're comparing there would be no point in discussing this.

B. Sure. I read the part that said don't use the logical explanation to completely discredit any merit from my post. Hey, I could put up a post saying Lecavalier is coming to Montreal and don't give me that crap about it's never going to happen too if I wanted. Wouldn't make for a very open conversation.

Jigger77 is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:15 PM
  #53
nodice
Registered Lurker
 
nodice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Not necessarily. Not all injuries are created equal.

I've criticized Tanguay in the past (esp when we first signed him) but you can't scream at a guy because he's hurt or can't play effectively due to an injury.

He's not a perfect player but he's not the reason we lost either. I agree that we need more rugged players who will go to the net, but having Tanguay isn't a bad thing, esp if he signs for a reasonable amount of money.
when i think of great lines they often contain a mix of different player types, player maker and shooter, or maybe a player with the ability to go to the tough areas. they compliment each other.

gritty players can create the space and opportunities for players like tanguay to shine. i think that is what we saw from the koviu-tanguay-lats line early on, before injury broke them up. tanuagy may have had the most ppg on our team this year? don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

nodice is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:23 PM
  #54
Le depisteur
Registered User
 
Le depisteur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Québec
Posts: 3,826
vCash: 500
Tanguay out for 3 months...
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/sports/hoc...trois-mois.php

Le depisteur is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:26 PM
  #55
nodice
Registered Lurker
 
nodice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 209
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
anyone want to translate the important bits?

nodice is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:28 PM
  #56
montreal
Moderator
Go Habs Go
 
montreal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Greenland
Posts: 26,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
But he didn't play hurt, wuss

Let's get real players that want to play hurt. Oh yea that's right, the Habs have major trouble getting quality NHLers. I wonder why, I wonder if it has anything to do with the *******s in the media that spew more crap then a pay toilet at taco bell or the ******* fans that ****ing complain about everything. This players too soft, this player doesn't speak french, this player struggled in his 2nd year, this player doesn't show up every game.

One things for sure, Gainey has a ****ing mess on his hands and no matter what he does (short of getting prince vinny), he's going to be wrong at least according to some "fans" and some fat ****ing slobs in the media.

montreal is online now  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:31 PM
  #57
Courtnall6
Registered User
 
Courtnall6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 263
vCash: 500
This is absolutely ridiculous that he's taking heat for this......

Courtnall6 is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:32 PM
  #58
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
You need Generals and you need Soldiers.

Mike Richards is a General.

Alex Tanguay is a Soldier.

You need both. There's no reason not to keep him.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlloveslucic View Post
But he didn't play hurt, wuss

Let's get real players that want to play hurt. Oh yea that's right, the Habs have major trouble getting quality NHLers. I wonder why, I wonder if it has anything to do with the *******s in the media that spew more crap then a pay toilet at taco bell or the ******* fans that ****ing complain about everything. This players too soft, this player doesn't speak french, this player struggled in his 2nd year, this player doesn't show up every game.

One things for sure, Gainey has a ****ing mess on his hands and no matter what he does (short of getting prince vinny), he's going to be wrong at least according to some "fans" and some fat ****ing slobs in the media.
I see I'm not the only one who's getting upset with the Wolverine ads.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:33 PM
  #59
fufonzo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,565
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to fufonzo Send a message via MSN to fufonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodice View Post
anyone want to translate the important bits?
Basically, it says that Tanguay is undergoing fairly minor shoulder surgery that will take about 3 months to heal.

According to his agent, he is open to re-signing with the Habs, even before July 1st. He does have some questions about the direction the team will be taking before he signs though.
Will ownership be changing? Will they be letting Gainey go?
Are they building a contender, or rebuilding?

When asked if he thought this injury filled season and last year's subpar season would make Tanguay's value drop, his agent said he's not too worried since Alex has already proven his worth in the past.

fufonzo is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:34 PM
  #60
sandman08
Registered User
 
sandman08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hyderabad, India
Country: India
Posts: 2,382
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
Well the Flames thought enough of him that they didn't even want a warm body in trade for him.

Irregardless of how hurt he was, when healthy, he is still a soft, soft player.
the flames were more worried about their rather scary/poor salary cap situation and needed to dump salary, on top of that they essentially replaced tanguay with mike cammileri who went on to score 36 goals for them so youre only partially correct about them not wanting a warm body back.. there needs were cap space and the want/need to replace tanguay with someone else to compliment their team in an attempt to "shake things up" after a poor playoff performance which they felt cammileri would do (they could not have acquired cammileri w/o trading tanguay first however if my memory serves me correctly). not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be.

sandman08 is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:35 PM
  #61
Lafleurs Guy
Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 29,385
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Basically, it says that Tanguay is undergoing fairly minor shoulder surgery that will take about 3 months to heal.

According to his agent, he is open to re-signing with the Habs, even before July 1st. He does have some questions about the direction the team will be taking before he signs though.
Will ownership be changing? Will they be letting Gainey go?
Are they building a contender, or rebuilding?

When asked if he thought this injury filled season and last year's subpar season would make Tanguay's value drop, his agent said he's not too worried since Alex has already proven his worth in the past.
Hopefully we can sign him cheap.

Lafleurs Guy is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 03:51 PM
  #62
Kimota
Three Bananas
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 23,001
vCash: 500
Tanguay didn't take one for the team?

Let me say this: He. Had. No. More. Shoulders! He had one shoulder that was finished. Not just injured but finished! It's only when his second shoulder was injured that he could not play anymore. So he did play injured in the playoffs, he played with one shoulder working. It's when the second one got injured then he could not do anything, basically.

Kimota is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 04:29 PM
  #63
Go Habs Go
Registered User
 
Go Habs Go's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mississauga
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
I got blasted because I criticized Alex Tanguay for not playing with his shoulder problems but I suspected that (a) he was holding out so that he didn’t look bad before negotiating a new contract or (b) he just doesn’t care enough about winning to sacrifice and play through injury. I heard in response that we don’t know how bad it was, that he’s the most productive player on the habs and, apparently, this is all that matters because, if I can quote the most ridiculous statement I have heard on hf boards: “GF > GA = Win”. What the prophet of this meaningless garble ignores is that soft players have lower net contributions when they come up against tough competition or adversity and you can’t take a general argument and assume every component part reproduces its characteristics. That’s called a fallacy of division. How many GF did Tanguay produce in the 2009 playoffs? How many GA did he prevent? Right.

That tinder out of the way, we’ve learned recently about what a couple of players went through.

The New York Post learned that Jamie Langenbrunner underwent arthroscopic knee surgery after game 2, and yet he still played. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04282009...ill_166586.htm)
Here’s a good quote from the article:

“This is the definition of a captain leading by example, what should be massive inspiration for the Devils in Game 7 tonight. The Post has learned that Jamie Langenbrunner underwent knee surgery after Game 2 of this series against the Hurricanes, heroicly returning to the lineup Sunday after missing only three games, promising yesterday "I'll be better [tonight]." Parise…Each time he looks to his right, he'll see two-Cup Langenbrunner gritting his teeth, doing what playoff players do -- play.”

Today we learn that Mike Richards will undergo shoulder surgery. (http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=276844) Allow me to quote from this article as well:

Philadelphia Flyers captain Mike Richards will undergo surgery on Friday to repair a torn labrum in his right shoulder, according to the Courier-Post. 24-year-old Richards was leading his team in playoff scoring with five points in six games. On Tuesday, he was named one of the finalists for the Selke trophy as the NHL's top defensive forward.”

We also saw the other night Daymond Langkow, banging and crashing in the corners and yet barely able to hold a stick in his hand.


As a Quebec born player I know Tanguay gets a carte blanche with many fans. You can make all the excuses in the world about how we don’t know this or that for sure. He played in games 1 and 2 but apparently couldn’t play in games 3 or 4. Did Tanguay’s injury become significantly worse all of a sudden? With these other players requiring surgery, but who competed and sacrificed for their team when it counted, we can see what a bunch of horse **** any excuse is. This is the difference between a champion and simply “a talented hockey player”. Tanguay’s cup championship is not a response to this. Sakic, Forsberg and Roy were infinitely more central than Tanguay to success. To win, you need players who will go to war, sacrifice or the team, produce results when it counts, and most of all, players who HATE to lose. There is also an old saying that is repeated ad nauseam and which is even true: You need your best players to be your best players. Tanguay, far from being our best player in games 1 and 2 when he played (remember, Richards led his team in scoring with a shoulder problem that requires surgery), decided not to play game 3 and even game 4 when his team was facing elimination.

Sadly, we probably have no choice but to sign this fairy but it must be for a low number that represents the secondary, perimeter player he is. He is not a go-to guy and doesn’t deserve that respect.

Price, 21 years old, has been criticized by everyone for everything. Some of it is deserved, much of it is not. Why does Tanguay escape scrutiny? With his $5.5 million albatross contract our expectations of him should have been high and we should be even more upset that he didn't show up when it counts. He was being paid the big bucks to suck it up. I don't care how many ppg he gets. He is clearly not willing to sacrifice. He deserves to be criticized for this and I hope everyone involved in this organization watched him quit, and I hope they remember that other players overcame similar injuries to fight for their teams.
So is he supposed to sacrifice himself to win the cup for fans like you?

Go Habs Go is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 04:47 PM
  #64
Ginu
Registered User
 
Ginu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,036
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cprice31 View Post
Your going to go to war with Alex Tanguay?
Sure am. He became my second favorite player to Koivu on this team with his play this year.

Ginu is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 04:50 PM
  #65
bjac
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,053
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
I love the excuses. He got hit? Cry me a river.

Don't tell me Tanguay is a big deal because of hat he did in 2001. That Avalanche team included Milan Hejduk, Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Paul Kariya, Teemu Selanne, Rob Blake and Adam Foote. There's not a player among those that I wouldn't have preferred to Tangauy at that time.
Talk about some blind hate? You arguement is full of holes. You are coming down on a guy for in injury that you don't even know the extent of. Sure Tanguay isn't physical, but who ever said he was? When he was traded for, the Habs thought they were getting someone who could help out Koivu. And thats exactly what he did. He was one of the best offensive leaders on this team. Then he gets hurt, and then the fanbase jumps on him for having a messed up shoulder.

For a player who is expected to generate offense from his shooting and passing abilities, how can you expect him to do much of anything if he can't raise his arm. Then to suggest that he at least should have come back as a "grinder" for those games, when the Habs had plenty of healthy, better, grinders sitting in the pressbox is rediculous. What would be the point? He'd probably just hurt himself more.

Then you question his integrety as a player by basically saying that you wouldn't want to "go to war" with him in the playoffs. This is a guy who has won it already, and hes been clutch when it counts. You can list off all those players on Colorado, but if it weren't for Tanguay in game 7, there is no Stanley Cup for Colorado. Its as simple as that. He's done well in the playoffs, and I don't see how bringing them up can help your arguement at all.

Tanguay is a great player to have on this team because he can provide secondary scoring and hes young. Hes got great vision, a decent shot, hes pretty quick. Hes not very physical, but once again, we already knew this when he was traded for. Not resigning him will hurt this teams offense, which already looks like it will be in rough shape next year.

Now that he's getting shoulder surgery in the offseason, people are starting to complain about his dedication? This is typical Montreal. People B****ing about injuries that they don't even really know about. Running him out of town will only hurt this team. People should focus on creating informed discussions rather than witch hunts.


Last edited by bjac: 04-29-2009 at 04:56 PM.
bjac is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 05:03 PM
  #66
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,258
vCash: 500
My God.

More of your Tanguay-bashing nonsense. Arguably the best forward on the team, certainly the most productive, most effective two-way guy we had all year, and here you are complaining because he'd rather sit and let someone take his spot rather than play with a busted shoulder and hurt his team by being a liability. Assuming the doctor would even let him play, which I don't think he got the green light for. Or have you not considered that maybe it never was his decision?

He's not flashy and he's not physical, so he gets underrated, exactly like Markov is. But he is extremely good and more than just for putting up points -- the kind of guy you want out in the last minute whether up or down a goal. So what if he's not a rah-rah, uber-vocal kind of leader? Lack of charisma is no fault in a hockey player (again see: Markov, Andrei).

Speaking of Markov, while we're at it -- why don't we trade his sorry ass? He didn't play through an injury, he's not a leader, he's not outspoken, he's not a physical guy. He puts up a lot of points and is an effective two-way player, exactly like Tanguay; he has many of the same strengths, and many of the same "faults".

By your logic, the Habs should look to get rid of him, shouldn't they? You never did tell me how your arguments against Tanguay affect your opinion on Markov, even though I asked repeatedly.

Tell me honestly: are you some sort of troll?

MathMan is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 05:12 PM
  #67
MathMan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 17,258
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
if I can quote the most ridiculous statement I have heard on hf boards: “GF > GA = Win”.
And by the way, the day they stop handing wins to the team with the most goals will be the day I stop laughing at you for calling that notion "ridiculous".

MathMan is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 05:19 PM
  #68
LeMAD
Registered User
 
LeMAD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 4,448
vCash: 500
"Softness" is not a problem in the playoffs as long as you can still play your game. I have no problem with re-signing Tanguay for the right price. We don't need warriors like those the Flyers and the Flames have, who disapear in the playoffs.

LeMAD is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 05:28 PM
  #69
habtastic
Registered User
 
habtastic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mumbai via MTL
Country: India
Posts: 9,581
vCash: 500
Don't question an injury if you really don't know the full extent, which you don't. As much as I get the thrust of the original post, I still think that given he played games one and two hurt, it sort of neutralizes your argument that he didn't play hurt. Also, Tanguay is our most talented player after Kovy and Markov (maybe tied...different skill sets). His "softness" is so overrated.

habtastic is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 05:30 PM
  #70
WeezyHabFan
Registered User
 
WeezyHabFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Canada
Country: Ireland
Posts: 1,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtlloveslucic View Post
But he didn't play hurt, wuss

Let's get real players that want to play hurt. Oh yea that's right, the Habs have major trouble getting quality NHLers. I wonder why, I wonder if it has anything to do with the *******s in the media that spew more crap then a pay toilet at taco bell or the ******* fans that ****ing complain about everything. This players too soft, this player doesn't speak french, this player struggled in his 2nd year, this player doesn't show up every game.

One things for sure, Gainey has a ****ing mess on his hands and no matter what he does (short of getting prince vinny), he's going to be wrong at least according to some "fans" and some fat ****ing slobs in the media.
I approve this message

WeezyHabFan is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 05:31 PM
  #71
montreal
Moderator
Go Habs Go
 
montreal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Greenland
Posts: 26,146
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Courtnall6 View Post
This is absolutely ridiculous that he's taking heat for this......
No, this is HF, logic need not apply. Just spew hate on any player, you'll find company somewhere. It's funny cause I get all these complaints about boston fans trolling, but the real laugh is that Hab fans on this board are 100 times worse then any of our rivals fans. We don't even need to do their job, we bash our own players better then anyone.

montreal is online now  
Old
04-29-2009, 06:01 PM
  #72
Iwishihadacup
Registered User
 
Iwishihadacup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,727
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
As long as you pay him accordingly.
Lets make a deal Catch-22

I smash your two shoulders with a baseball bat, then I ask you to play hockey and to help a team already full of injuries that terribly lack offense, who play against physical team that know that you are injured at this precise place...

Iwishihadacup is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 06:08 PM
  #73
Blind Gardien
nexus of the crisis
 
Blind Gardien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Four Winds Bar
Country: France
Posts: 20,551
vCash: 500
I really liked what Tanguay showed when he was healthy this year. And he has historically not been an injury-plagued player. Having a grittier team doesn't mean that every single player on the team is a paragon of grit. Tanguay more than compensates with some of his other attributes. He has been on championship teams before, so there's no arguing that he can't contribute to a winner. He provides scoring depth and creativity that we lack. I'd like to see him back with the Habs.

What I'm a bit worried about is the pricetag, however.

Blind Gardien is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 06:17 PM
  #74
JGRB
#EllerThugLife
 
JGRB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,456
vCash: 500
Tanguay is a player every team needs, sure he isn't the grittiest player on the team but he is high-end talent. We need Tanguay, but like others have expressed concern over, is the price tag. If you can sign him for around the same thing he was earning last year for 2-3 years, you bite the bullet and hope that it pays off.

I'd like to see him kept.

JGRB is offline  
Old
04-29-2009, 06:19 PM
  #75
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 52,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
I got blasted because I criticized Alex Tanguay for not playing with his shoulder problems but I suspected that (a) he was holding out so that he didn’t look bad before negotiating a new contract or (b) he just doesn’t care enough about winning to sacrifice and play through injury. I heard in response that we don’t know how bad it was, that he’s the most productive player on the habs and, apparently, this is all that matters because, if I can quote the most ridiculous statement I have heard on hf boards: “GF > GA = Win”. What the prophet of this meaningless garble ignores is that soft players have lower net contributions when they come up against tough competition or adversity and you can’t take a general argument and assume every component part reproduces its characteristics. That’s called a fallacy of division. How many GF did Tanguay produce in the 2009 playoffs? How many GA did he prevent? Right.

That tinder out of the way, we’ve learned recently about what a couple of players went through.

The New York Post learned that Jamie Langenbrunner underwent arthroscopic knee surgery after game 2, and yet he still played. (http://www.nypost.com/seven/04282009...ill_166586.htm)
Here’s a good quote from the article:

“This is the definition of a captain leading by example, what should be massive inspiration for the Devils in Game 7 tonight. The Post has learned that Jamie Langenbrunner underwent knee surgery after Game 2 of this series against the Hurricanes, heroicly returning to the lineup Sunday after missing only three games, promising yesterday "I'll be better [tonight]." Parise…Each time he looks to his right, he'll see two-Cup Langenbrunner gritting his teeth, doing what playoff players do -- play.”

Today we learn that Mike Richards will undergo shoulder surgery. (http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=276844) Allow me to quote from this article as well:

Philadelphia Flyers captain Mike Richards will undergo surgery on Friday to repair a torn labrum in his right shoulder, according to the Courier-Post. 24-year-old Richards was leading his team in playoff scoring with five points in six games. On Tuesday, he was named one of the finalists for the Selke trophy as the NHL's top defensive forward.”

We also saw the other night Daymond Langkow, banging and crashing in the corners and yet barely able to hold a stick in his hand.


As a Quebec born player I know Tanguay gets a carte blanche with many fans. You can make all the excuses in the world about how we don’t know this or that for sure. He played in games 1 and 2 but apparently couldn’t play in games 3 or 4. Did Tanguay’s injury become significantly worse all of a sudden? With these other players requiring surgery, but who competed and sacrificed for their team when it counted, we can see what a bunch of horse **** any excuse is. This is the difference between a champion and simply “a talented hockey player”. Tanguay’s cup championship is not a response to this. Sakic, Forsberg and Roy were infinitely more central than Tanguay to success. To win, you need players who will go to war, sacrifice or the team, produce results when it counts, and most of all, players who HATE to lose. There is also an old saying that is repeated ad nauseam and which is even true: You need your best players to be your best players. Tanguay, far from being our best player in games 1 and 2 when he played (remember, Richards led his team in scoring with a shoulder problem that requires surgery), decided not to play game 3 and even game 4 when his team was facing elimination.

Sadly, we probably have no choice but to sign this fairy but it must be for a low number that represents the secondary, perimeter player he is. He is not a go-to guy and doesn’t deserve that respect.

Price, 21 years old, has been criticized by everyone for everything. Some of it is deserved, much of it is not. Why does Tanguay escape scrutiny? With his $5.5 million albatross contract our expectations of him should have been high and we should be even more upset that he didn't show up when it counts. He was being paid the big bucks to suck it up. I don't care how many ppg he gets. He is clearly not willing to sacrifice. He deserves to be criticized for this and I hope everyone involved in this organization watched him quit, and I hope they remember that other players overcame similar injuries to fight for their teams.
I hate to break this to you, but Langenbrunner also missed time in the playoffs.

Fish on The Sand is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.