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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Bob Goodenow on CBC

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Old
09-24-2004, 07:56 AM
  #126
habster
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To me, itís not about the players canít negotiate a contract to determine their worth under a hard cap system, rather itís the team saying we have so much money to spend for player X, but if player X thinks itís to little then player X can go somewhere else.

So to me thereís still a market place but restricted. That way player X doesnít get handed/awarded ridicules contract that ends up putting the team in a bind. But I think that a payroll of ~32 is kinda in the low side. If the owners are willing to bump up the limit then maybe thereís something both side can agree on.

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09-24-2004, 08:02 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan
This is one point that I agree with 100%!! The players have made some concessions in their mind. Why doesn't the NHL tweak the NHLPA's proposal to it's liking? Why not ackowledge the NHLPA making an offer?

But then flip that to the players? Sure we'll accept a cap. But not at 30 million, but at 60 million?

Until these parties find some middle ground, there will be no deal.

I honestly believe the players will cave though. They are losing and if they hold out a year they will be percieved as the bad guys by 90% of the hockey fans. Whether they are or aren't is irrelevent. IF they make an agreement and this starts over, then the tables will be turned.
I believe they don't acknowledge the offer because they want the Union broken and won't settle until this happens.

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09-24-2004, 08:22 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Canuck
I never said I agree with the players being paid so well. And that has no bearing on the affordability of tickets. Nevertheless, if you have a hard time making ends meet and you can't afford to go to a game that is not the fault of the players or the owners.

Thats like me wanting to go on a cruise and blaming the cruise company for not making the trip more affordable for me.

Furthermore, with 20 teams losing money the owners have to make the game more affordable for themselves not for the average fan. That may or may not include adjusting the ticket prices, but more likely it will only be through a more favorable CBA.

Don't get your hopes up for cheaper tickets
Buffalo just dropped ticket prices to below 1996 levels...

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09-24-2004, 10:29 AM
  #129
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The 31 Million cap is a starting point from the league IMO. That's where the negotiation will start at. The League will most likely come back with a cap of around 35 to 38 mil I think, with changes to FA age and other player concessions.

Tom I must say that might be the best response I've seen from a Pro-Player point of view, even if it is a harsh reality - and I'm in a fringe market.

Also I'll throw the Capitals in as another team that lowered ticket prices for the start of next season.

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09-24-2004, 10:32 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224
I believe they don't acknowledge the offer because they want the Union broken and won't settle until this happens.
I agree. The NHL has moved so far beyond trying to achieve cost certainty at this point. They are taking a hardline stance and doing a very good job of selling their position (which as far as I can tell is still quite unclear) as being reasonable and just waiting for impatient players to break the union. It's almost exactly what Bettman's old boss, David Stern, did to the NBA players in the last lockout. The NHLPA is of course helping them out big time by refusing to discuss any kind of cap.

What's interesting to me is that the NHL is taking a very hard position, they're not just saying "salary cap" but they're also saying "no luxury tax". However, the NHLPA gets much more publicity for saying "no salary cap". So far so good for Bettman's campaign I would say.

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09-24-2004, 10:58 AM
  #131
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Over and over I heard Goodenow say that the players want the owners to offer whatever the market says that a player is worth ( highest bidder takes the player )
That each team knows best what they can afford. That that is what the status is and that is what the players want. No cap so the highest bidder wins the player.
WELL two can play that game. I say let the league determin what the league can afford and that the highest offer to be 1 million. Thats it ! That no team can offer more then 1 million, period, for any player. Sit back and WATCH THE NHLPA go nuts over this. Goodenow will be on TV in 6 minutes blasting the league and somehow saying what he has been saying is not what he meant. That what he meant was that no player should ever get paid less then his current contract and all teams must try to out bid all other teams constantly and just find more rich owners to fight over each player untill the league has blead dry in red ink. That Fans should sell their kids if thats what the takes to raise the money for high ticket prices. After all A dad with two boys is 3x100 bucks plus the parking and the 4 dollar hot dogs and 2 dollar drinks plus a souvenire 20 bucks each so a current night out runs maby 400.00 and if things continue it will be 500.00 by very soon.
500.00 bucks if a night out if your a hockey player earning the current league average 1.8 mil per year but IT IS NOT if your an average fan.
ANd this is the status quo the NHLPA and Goodenow says should continue ???????

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09-24-2004, 11:13 AM
  #132
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Also I'll throw the Capitals in as another team that lowered ticket prices for the start of next season.

after selling their team. The team now looks like it could compete for the Calder Cup (AHL).

If i was a fan in Washington, i'd never pay to go see a team which gets rid of its best players in order to save money.

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09-24-2004, 12:35 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leph28
[B]If i was a fan in Washington, i'd never pay to go see a team which gets rid of its best players in order to save money.
Why not? It's not like the team was any worse with those "best players" then it was with them.

The only way they can get better is having their young players get better.

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Old
09-24-2004, 12:53 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLC
WELL two can play that game. I say let the league determin what the league can afford and that the highest offer to be 1 million. Thats it ! That no team can offer more then 1 million, period, for any player.
If clubs wanted to do this, they easily could. They don't need the union to even be a part of the discussion. They could simply get together, play some golf, agree on a handshake to enact a 'cap' for team payrolls, and run with it.

Why doesn't this happen? Simply, the Colorados, Detroits and New Yorks of the team want to win, and their on-ice product is worth a lot more than the product in Raleigh. So, they raise the bar and start bringing in the top talent in the league.

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09-24-2004, 01:15 PM
  #135
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money problems in the NHL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz
Do they? Is that why there are no money problems in the NHL and the season is starting as usual?
Ouch, the sarcasm!

Hold up a second though. Can we certain that there really are these "money problems" that the league is talking about? Is the league really "sick," as Don Cherry says?

Without question, salaries have exploded since the last CBA was signed. However, the league has also exploded to 30 teams, and Gretzky and others have put the game on the map in the US, and really contributed to an increase in demand for the game. As such, ticket prices have raised.

The question I'm begging to ask Gary Bettman is, if all these teams are losing so much money, why are they all operating still? Why do people always seem to step up and buy teams that are for sale? If I was operating a business that was losing money hand over fist, I think I would pack up and go home.

And, where's the 3rd party confirmation of losses? They got Leavitt to flip through the books, but he's not impartial, and, on top of that, the NHL has severely skewed and miscommunicated his findings, in a way that even further served their argument.

What I'm getting at is this: I think these teams are crying foul in hopes to get fans on their side, and put as much pressure as possible on the players to make concessions. It's all smoke and mirrors, the art of negotiation.

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Old
09-24-2004, 04:15 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt
If clubs wanted to do this, they easily could. They don't need the union to even be a part of the discussion. They could simply get together, play some golf, agree on a handshake to enact a 'cap' for team payrolls, and run with it.

Why doesn't this happen? Simply, the Colorados, Detroits and New Yorks of the team want to win, and their on-ice product is worth a lot more than the product in Raleigh. So, they raise the bar and start bringing in the top talent in the league.

And that is so good for the league to have only 6-9 teams that vye for the cup consistently and take players from other teams.

Man Kurt you have no clue. The NHL wants to correct this to have 30 healthy teams, not 6-9. I mean really...

If the Canucks were just a developmental team that the Avs always signed the best players in their primes from, then what the hell is the point of having a team in Edmonton, Vancouver, Atlanta and the likes.

A competitive, healthy league with 30 teams that have a chance to compete everynight is the only way the NHL will survive.

The Yankees, Red Sox, Man U, Aresenal, Real Madrid... these are the perfect examples of what is wrong with sports and sports leagues. Imagine how Manchester city feels to have won 1 win against Man U in the last 25 meetings?

I would hate going to the NHL knowing my team has no chance in hell of being a competitive team, just waiting for the day when Kovalchuk or Heatly go to the Highest bidder because they offer far above the true market value.

This whole supply and demand argument is stupid. Look at it really? How can it possibly benefit the league?

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Old
09-24-2004, 05:10 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Buffalo just dropped ticket prices to below 1996 levels...
Sorry, I should have made it more clear. I meant don't get your hope up for cheaper tickets if the players take a pay cut. All i'm saying is that the two are not linked and the owners will adjust prices based on certain other variables.


Last edited by Jack Canuck: 09-24-2004 at 05:14 PM.
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Old
09-24-2004, 05:57 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurt
The question I'm begging to ask Gary Bettman is, if all these teams are losing so much money, why are they all operating still? Why do people always seem to step up and buy teams that are for sale? If I was operating a business that was losing money hand over fist, I think I would pack up and go home.
Well, the only 2 instances I know of are the Oiler owners were staying on until now in hopes of a better CBA. And Melnyk was told when he bought the Sens that the CBA is going to be fixed and that was a stipulation of him buying the team.

The Oilers part I know of by being a long time fan, and the Melnyk part I heard on the radio yesterday in an interview with someone in Otterwa.

So I guess they are both in business because they saw the light at the end of the tunnel.

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Old
09-24-2004, 06:01 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leph28
Also I'll throw the Capitals in as another team that lowered ticket prices for the start of next season.
Edmonton did too. Back in April.

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Old
09-24-2004, 07:49 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz
Well, the only 2 instances I know of are the Oiler owners were staying on until now in hopes of a better CBA. And Melnyk was told when he bought the Sens that the CBA is going to be fixed and that was a stipulation of him buying the team.

The Oilers part I know of by being a long time fan, and the Melnyk part I heard on the radio yesterday in an interview with someone in Otterwa.

So I guess they are both in business because they saw the light at the end of the tunnel.
Add Buffalo to that list as well. Quinn or Golisano, I don't remember which, said that buying an NHL team doesn't make since in todays economic environment (before they bought the team). The only thing that does make it possible is that they have recieved assurances from the league that the CBA will be changed.

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Old
09-24-2004, 07:55 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Canuck
Sorry, I should have made it more clear. I meant don't get your hope up for cheaper tickets if the players take a pay cut. All i'm saying is that the two are not linked and the owners will adjust prices based on certain other variables.
Of course there are other variables, but when your player costs are 75% of revenue, you have to do everything possible to cover that expense, and the price of admission is the biggest revenue stream for many teams. Will ticket prices decrease after the CBA is signed? I'm guessing they will, mainly because teams will have to lure many fans back to the games. After that, I don't know. All we have to go on is opinion...

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Old
09-24-2004, 08:18 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djhn579
Of course there are other variables, but when your player costs are 75% of revenue, you have to do everything possible to cover that expense, and the price of admission is the biggest revenue stream for many teams. Will ticket prices decrease after the CBA is signed? I'm guessing they will, mainly because teams will have to lure many fans back to the games. After that, I don't know. All we have to go on is opinion...
Well we have a little more to go on than opinion. There are simple economic facts that I have mentioned many times already in this thread.

Think about it this way. If player make 75% of revenue, or if they make 65% of revenue the owners still want to make as much money as possible off of fans, and tickets will be set accordingly. So at 65% they are already charging as much as fans will accept to pay. If players salaries rise to 75% like they are now the owners can raise prices higher, but to what benefit? Less fans will come.

It is the other variables (like a star player coming or going) that matter when determining the ticket prices NOT the salaries.
However, the salaries do determine how much profit or loss there is.


Last edited by Jack Canuck: 09-24-2004 at 08:29 PM.
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