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All-Time Draft #11, Part 4

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Old
05-06-2009, 06:50 PM
  #26
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
"Cameron looked lost in the Toronto zone, though he was comfortable carrying the puck when Toronto was attacking.."

"The Victoria forwards weaved around Harry Cameron the entire game. Cameron was frequently bailed out by Jack Marshall and Hap Holmes."

"Cameron was unable to hold Foyston off from the front of the Toronto net, which allowed the Victoria forward to tap a rebound shot into the open cage"

"Any time the puck went into Cameron's corner you could be certain a Victoria forward would be coming out with it"...




Just kidding, man.
You actually got me, you *******.

Seriously though, if anyone has some other quotes or data they'd like to share that could counter the seemingly impressive contemporary accounts of Cameron's defensive and physical play, please share them.

Otherwise, I think we're compelled to believe that, contrary to commonly held belief, he was more than capable in his own end. Not a Cleghorn by any stretch, naturally, but far from a liability.


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Old
05-06-2009, 07:10 PM
  #27
Kyle McMahon
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Extremely surprise to see my AAA N.1 defenseman getting selected at that point. You must have something on him we don't know about.
Well, I was looking for a puck-moving defenseman to pair with Mummery. (Mummery himself was actually a decent puck rusher despite his enourmous size, but I'm thinking in this he'd be better served minding his own end.) I could take some guy who was a decent offensive d-man from a later era, but never elite in that regard, or go with Young and be able to say he was one of the very best of his era. If players are to be judged based on where they stood amongst their peers, Young is as good a choice as any at this point.

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05-06-2009, 07:18 PM
  #28
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I'm gong on a trip till Saturday, if my pick comes up, whick I don't think it will, please skipp my pick.

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Old
05-06-2009, 07:39 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Well, I was looking for a puck-moving defenseman to pair with Mummery. (Mummery himself was actually a decent puck rusher despite his enourmous size, but I'm thinking in this he'd be better served minding his own end.) I could take some guy who was a decent offensive d-man from a later era, but never elite in that regard, or go with Young and be able to say he was one of the very best of his era. If players are to be judged based on where they stood amongst their peers, Young is as good a choice as any at this point.
First of all, I don't think he was the best defenseman of the 1890's. Mike Grant was better offensively and defensively. I also have another D in mind who I think was better than him (I obviously can't name him). Also, before the ECAHA of 1904-05 and even more before the CAHL of 1899-1900, players were scarce around numerous leagues. Although ''young guns'' like Mike Grant, Alf Smith, Harvey Pulford and Harry Westwick were part of his competition, the best players in those leagues are guys that are not worthy of an ATD selection and that are selected in the MLD and the AAA draft. For example, Desse Brown and Baldy Spittal (yea, who?) were having better offensive production than him. Graham Drinkwater was his only competition in those times.

Also, there is just so few information on him, if we thought we had nothing on Grant ... From what I know, the only info I can find on him are his two paragraphs in Ultimate Hockey. Perhaps someone who own the Trail of the Stanley Cup (70's!) could dig up some more infos.

I'm not here to dish the selection of others, but I don't see him worthy of an ATD spot. I would gladly change my mind if some more infos are coming my way.

---------------------------------

Good night all, I'll pick in the morning if it's my turn (would be surprise if it happen), or else I'll send my list to some GM's.

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Old
05-06-2009, 08:06 PM
  #30
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70s and VCL's time is up. pit is up, and has been PMed.

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05-06-2009, 08:27 PM
  #31
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The Clippers select C Art Chapman.

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05-06-2009, 09:15 PM
  #32
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The Clippers select C Art Chapman.
Great pick.

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05-06-2009, 09:43 PM
  #33
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with the 560th pick the Montreal Canadiens select, Ian Turnbull, D

and

with the 561st pick the Montreal Canadiens select, Ziggy Palffy, RW

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05-06-2009, 09:54 PM
  #34
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Argh, that's the third or fourth time you've stolen the player I was going to take with the second of my two picks, Canadiens Fan. I had my sights set on Palffy.

The Clippers select Coach Art Ross.

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05-06-2009, 10:14 PM
  #35
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The Clippers select C Art Chapman.
We had him as our 13th F last draft, and I thought he was possibly our biggest steal. He's a gifted playmaker. Led the league in assists twice. Lower-tier second line scoring centre. Or an excellent centre for a third scoring line. And he's terrific defensively.

Probably one of the most underrated players in the draft. His hockey sense is elite.

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05-06-2009, 10:18 PM
  #36
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Sorry we're late, fellas. We'll be making our pick right away.

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05-06-2009, 10:32 PM
  #37
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Well, the choice for our 4th line RW isn't really much of a dilemma. There is one player I like just as much, but VI will slam the pick, I don't feel like defending his supposedly marginal offensive abilities, we have enough players from that era, and truthfully there is very little evidence that supports his suitability for a 4th line role (besides the fact that he played defense for a while). Someone else can have him. And I look forward to seeing who does.

So, we select someone who is very suitable for a 4th-line role. We are pleased that we ended up having a 4th line with this guy as its least-talented member. One of Cherry's favourites:

Bobby Schmautz

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Old
05-06-2009, 10:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Well, the choice for our 4th line RW isn't really much of a dilemma. There is one player I like just as much, but VI will slam the pick, I don't feel like defending his supposedly marginal offensive abilities, we have enough players from that era, and truthfully there is very little evidence that supports his suitability for a 4th line role (besides the fact that he played defense for a while). Someone else can have him. And I look forward to seeing who does.

So, we select someone who is very suitable for a 4th-line role. We are pleased that we ended up having a 4th line with this guy as its least-talented member. One of Cherry's favourites:
http://www.hfboards.com/images/smilies/yo.gif
Bobby Schmautz
That's a fantastic pick. The GBC/raleh connection had him in their first draft together in ATD 8. In his six-year peak in the mid-70s, he scored at nearly a point-per-game clip in both the regular season and the playoffs. And he's tough as nails, aggressive and pretty good in his own zone. He can play on a third or fourth line.

Back when Murph and I iced a team together in MLD 7, we both really wanted Schmautzy, and played the waiting game on selecting him, only to watch pappy pick him right before we did. (I guess it was revenge for Murph and I picking Balon and another undrafted player that pappy really, really wanted. I think Murph actually thought I'd had one too many cold ones on the golf course when I first started pimping Balon).

And I think you have another pick, 70s.

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Old
05-06-2009, 10:43 PM
  #39
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Though I run the risk of earning papershoes' eternal ire (not my intent!), I'd just like to point out that as of tonight, Sidney Crosby has more career playoff points than Marcel Dionne.

In 15 fewer games.

At age 21.

Playing in a lower scoring era.

Without Charlie Simmer and Dave Taylor on his flanks.

While playing better in his own end.

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Old
05-06-2009, 10:54 PM
  #40
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Thanks bud. I truly appreciate it, considering you're a division rival and it'd be too easy to ignore some pretty positive accounts of Cameron's all-around play. Learning more about the game is what it's all about.

Cheers.
That's what it's all about. Glad to give the group some more info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
You actually got me, you *******.

Seriously though, if anyone has some other quotes or data they'd like to share that could counter the seemingly impressive contemporary accounts of Cameron's defensive and physical play, please share them.

Otherwise, I think we're compelled to believe that, contrary to commonly held belief, he was more than capable in his own end. Not a Cleghorn by any stretch, naturally, but far from a liability.
that was my intention. I wish I saw the look on your face.

The old articles like that makes it seem like everyone was physical and/or dirty. This one certainly does. But Cameron was, at the very least, holding his own. There was a time where he apparently hit that guy unprovoked, and then he smoked the guy who whacked him earlier, so it's safe to say he doesn't just take the abuse and slink away to lick his wounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
First of all, I don't think he was the best defenseman of the 1890's. Mike Grant was better offensively and defensively. I also have another D in mind who I think was better than him (I obviously can't name him). Also, before the ECAHA of 1904-05 and even more before the CAHL of 1899-1900, players were scarce around numerous leagues. Although ''young guns'' like Mike Grant, Alf Smith, Harvey Pulford and Harry Westwick were part of his competition, the best players in those leagues are guys that are not worthy of an ATD selection and that are selected in the MLD and the AAA draft. For example, Desse Brown and Baldy Spittal (yea, who?) were having better offensive production than him. Graham Drinkwater was his only competition in those times.

Also, there is just so few information on him, if we thought we had nothing on Grant ... From what I know, the only info I can find on him are his two paragraphs in Ultimate Hockey. Perhaps someone who own the Trail of the Stanley Cup (70's!) could dig up some more infos.

I'm not here to dish the selection of others, but I don't see him worthy of an ATD spot. I would gladly change my mind if some more infos are coming my way.

---------------------------------

Good night all, I'll pick in the morning if it's my turn (would be surprise if it happen), or else I'll send my list to some GM's.
The Trail has Desse Brown and Baldy Spittal as forwards.

At the moment I don't have the time to look through each season and search the back to see the positions of the players I don't know very well. But, I must say that with defensemen from those times, it's very difficult to get a read on who was the best offensively. For one thing, assists were not recorded and are lost forever. Secondly, in an 8-game AHA season, if one guy was 1st among defensemen with 4 goals, and two more had 3 goals each, and there was a guy with 2 goals, has any of them really proven to be better than the others in 8 games? FWIW, Weldy ended up with 11 goals in 54 games - one more goal in one fewer game than Grant.

I think that we have to go by the accounts of how they played and how good they were. Others who have better stats but don't seem to be of interest to historians before us, just might not have been that good.

Weldy is not a guy I'd take at this time due to lack of info. But I think the evidence is there to suggest he was 3rd or 4th in his time, behind the likes of Drinkwater and Grant. (any season in which Drinkwater had high totals, he would have been a center) I had him high on my list in the AAA votes and wouldn't have hesitated to take him in the MLD. (which all you guys better join this time!)

Here's what I was able to dig up from the AAA thread:

Quote:
Here's a few things I read about him in the Ottawa Senators history book I recently finished:

- Was the Senators captain for two seasons

- Was known for spectacular rushes, usually resulting in a shot on goal or a sharp pass

- Occasionally would lose control of the puck and not get back in time to defend. Pulford bailed him out often.

- He was not above taking a vicious slash at an opponent's ankle or going after a heckler.
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
We had him as our 13th F last draft, and I thought he was possibly our biggest steal. He's a gifted playmaker. Led the league in assists twice. Lower-tier second line scoring centre. Or an excellent centre for a third scoring line. And he's terrific defensively.

Probably one of the most underrated players in the draft. His hockey sense is elite.
Chapman is underrated; no one seems to appreciate his playmaking skill. But where on earth did you read that he was terrific defensively? I've looked in a few places tonight and see no evidence of it, and it's not like you saw him play.

I'm curious, I just want to know and I'd rather we don't make players into something they're not, if at all possible.

And, not to sound like I'm badgering you, but I'm still wondering about Russell Bowie. Where did you read he had a mean/dirty streak? Or was this a case of mistaken identity?

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Old
05-06-2009, 11:00 PM
  #41
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pick will be coming within an hour. VCL is having a rare "online night" and I'd like to discuss with him. Skip us if you guys really need to move along... or don't, if you can wait an hour. Thanks, gentlemen.

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Old
05-06-2009, 11:03 PM
  #42
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An excerpt from Chapman's legendsofhockey.net bio:

"Chapman played his final NHL season. During his career, he had often been chided for playing too defensively, but Chapman would give his standard reply 'If you can stop them from scoring, you'll get a goal in time.'"

As for Bowie - reality of the game when he played was that it was a very, very violent game. A lot of stick work. A lot of vicious plays. And keep in mind that it's the time before helmets and the pads that we have now. If you didn't have that edge to you, that ability to get them before they got you, you didn't survive very long. The descriptions of the game's early years aren't always pretty. The Hockey: A People's History series that the CBC did a few years back was very well done, I thought, and they show the turn of the 20th century hockey to be one the roughest and toughest times in the history of the sport.

Incidentally, 70s, your 21st round pick was officially skipped when pit announced that Ross was his coach. Good thing for you that Wiser is after you, and he won't be up for a couple more hours.

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Old
05-06-2009, 11:04 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
that was my intention. I wish I saw the look on your face.
It was something like this:



Quote:
The old articles like that makes it seem like everyone was physical and/or dirty. This one certainly does. But Cameron was, at the very least, holding his own. There was a time where he apparently hit that guy unprovoked, and then he smoked the guy who whacked him earlier, so it's safe to say he doesn't just take the abuse and slink away to lick his wounds.
Well, you know the old "offensive defenseman" stereotype...soft and porous - no doubt a convenient fallback when there's so little readily available information from games nearly a century ago.

But it sure looks like the typecast doesn't fit Cameron.

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Old
05-06-2009, 11:25 PM
  #44
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
First of all, I don't think he was the best defenseman of the 1890's. Mike Grant was better offensively and defensively. I also have another D in mind who I think was better than him (I obviously can't name him). Also, before the ECAHA of 1904-05 and even more before the CAHL of 1899-1900, players were scarce around numerous leagues. Although ''young guns'' like Mike Grant, Alf Smith, Harvey Pulford and Harry Westwick were part of his competition, the best players in those leagues are guys that are not worthy of an ATD selection and that are selected in the MLD and the AAA draft. For example, Desse Brown and Baldy Spittal (yea, who?) were having better offensive production than him. Graham Drinkwater was his only competition in those times.

Also, there is just so few information on him, if we thought we had nothing on Grant ... From what I know, the only info I can find on him are his two paragraphs in Ultimate Hockey. Perhaps someone who own the Trail of the Stanley Cup (70's!) could dig up some more infos.
I agree Grant was superior, that's why I only said Young was one of the best. Pulford and Drinkwater were also better players IMO. But after that, I think you can make a pretty decent case that Young was next in line in the 1890's.

As seventies stated, it's pretty sketchy to just go on stats when the only thing that was recorded was goals and seasons were just 8 games. But history has remembered Young, as he is called a star player in The Trail and he is one of six 1890's defensemen with a bio in Ultimate Hockey (I don't have Ultimate Hockey, but apparently this is the same thing).

We've seen about 150 defensemen picked to this point, and I'm not depending on Young to be a key player, so I figured why not? Young was the star of his team at the very least, so I don't think it's unreasonable to take him over somebody from the expansion era who was #2 or #3 on their team.

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Old
05-06-2009, 11:31 PM
  #45
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I agree Grant was superior, that's why I only said Young was one of the best. Pulford and Drinkwater were also better players IMO. But after that, I think you can make a pretty decent case that Young was next in line in the 1890's.

As seventies stated, it's pretty sketchy to just go on stats when the only thing that was recorded was goals and seasons were just 8 games. But history has remembered Young, as he is called a star player in The Trail and he is one of six 1890's defensemen with a bio in Ultimate Hockey (I don't have Ultimate Hockey, but apparently this is the same thing).

We've seen about 150 defensemen picked to this point, and I'm not depending on Young to be a key player, so I figured why not? Young was the star of his team at the very least, so I don't think it's unreasonable to take him over somebody from the expansion era who was #2 or #3 on their team.

See "Weldy Loves Dolly" in their articles section.

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Old
05-07-2009, 02:01 AM
  #46
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Regina selects a center who can fill on on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th line if he has to. The best playmaker remaining, a good teammate, and longtime captain of the Oilers -

Doug Weight

Never should have slipped to MLD10.

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Old
05-07-2009, 04:19 AM
  #47
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Anyang picks
Vladimir Dzurilla

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Old
05-07-2009, 08:04 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Though I run the risk of earning papershoes' eternal ire (not my intent!), I'd just like to point out that as of tonight, Sidney Crosby has more career playoff points than Marcel Dionne.

In 15 fewer games.

At age 21.

Playing in a lower scoring era.

Without Charlie Simmer and Dave Taylor on his flanks.

While playing better in his own end.
all very true...

crosby has been an absolute beast in the playoffs these past two years. this series is an absolute beauty.

i haven't seen any photo's of dionne but, how do they compare when it comes to playoff beards?

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Old
05-07-2009, 08:45 AM
  #49
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Argh, that's the third or fourth time you've stolen the player I was going to take with the second of my two picks, Canadiens Fan. I had my sights set on Palffy.

The Clippers select Coach Art Ross.
Is that a good or a bad thing that I'm taking your "second pick" ???

Seriously, to get a forward who played in the offensively-challenged '90's and averaged over a point-per-game for his career is pretty tough to pass up this late in the draft.

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05-07-2009, 09:14 AM
  #50
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all very true...

crosby has been an absolute beast in the playoffs these past two years. this series is an absolute beauty.

i haven't seen any photo's of dionne but, how do they compare when it comes to playoff beards?
I'd say that's one area where just about everyone has Crosby beat.

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