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How is the economic crisis effecting teams in Germany?

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Old
03-26-2009, 01:39 PM
  #26
HockeyInsider87
 
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Well, HockeyInsider87, it seems like you have your mind already made up.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that most teams in Germany are not owned by some rich guys but depend for the most part on sponsors and if that sponsor goes bankrupt it's 'game over'.

The system here is different.

I admire everyone willing to put any money into hockey here in Germany because it sure is an ungrateful task.
To the contrary I am very open minded. I understand these are troubled times but it seems to me like there are enough auto makers and beer company's to go around in Germany as major sponsors. How many of them have dropped their sponsorship for hockey teams this year? Teams in North America including the NHL and AHL need sponsorhip as well. It's called advertising income and private box sales. The AHL does not get a lot of TV $$ and rely on corporations to buy up private boxes and season tickets to sustain themselves. Teams lose money every year but players get paid according to contract terms. It seems to me there has to be a lot more accountability by owners.

Like I said earlier, if a team can't afford to pay players at the Bundesliga2 level where I'm sure the salaries are much lower than most DEL teams then why would that team fire a coach half way through the year, hire a new coach and then have to pay the old coach for 2 more years? Poor budget management IMO.

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03-26-2009, 01:52 PM
  #27
Toni Porkka
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Big companies usually have interest in soccer, but not in hockey.
And yes, there is quite a lot of mismanagement in German hockey.

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03-27-2009, 01:56 AM
  #28
harry 93
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I think what makes HI87 bitter is the fact, that a team pretends serious management, is late in paying bills all season long (which amount of economic upturn was prognosed in September??? the economy argument doesn't work for the start of the season), fires a coach with a huge contract and still keeps trying to sign top and pricey players for the next season. I agree that with the economic situation of today things got worse to keep a hockey club running but like I said: If you already runned your team unsound before the crisis even started you can certainly question this club.

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03-27-2009, 03:13 AM
  #29
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Of course there's a lot of mismanangement (just look at Bad Tölz), no doubt about it but I have no insight in how the teams are run so it's pretty impossible to give you the info you need HockeyInsider87.

I think it's actually better for the players if a team goes bankcrupt because then they will be payed by the Arbeitsamt I think but if it's just the managers being bad and deciding to not pay the players they probably will have to sue.

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03-29-2009, 10:38 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by harry 93 View Post
I think what makes HI87 bitter is the fact, that a team pretends serious management, is late in paying bills all season long (which amount of economic upturn was prognosed in September??? the economy argument doesn't work for the start of the season), fires a coach with a huge contract and still keeps trying to sign top and pricey players for the next season. I agree that with the economic situation of today things got worse to keep a hockey club running but like I said: If you already runned your team unsound before the crisis even started you can certainly question this club.
I received information that the Bundesliga2 team alluded to in this thread has apparently now paid the players their March 1st paycheck. It will be interesting to see if they pay the players on time for April 1st or are again late in paying. I don't think any team would want to be named on this forum. That would be embarrassing.

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03-30-2009, 04:41 PM
  #31
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I think that even the Polar Bears are happy when they finish the year with break-even figures.
I read an article in the FAZ a few weeks ago and it stated that Berlin is making a profit this season.

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I think it's actually better for the players if a team goes bankcrupt because then they will be payed by the Arbeitsamt I think but if it's just the managers being bad and deciding to not pay the players they probably will have to sue.
I can assure you no player in the right mind wants their team to go bankrupt.
It sucks for the fans but bankruptcy is not such a bad thing for the respective league as everybody thinks.
A team like Nuremberg had been managed badly. They risked too much by selling their name to a company that has now decided to pull out. From an economical point of view they kind of deserve to go down. If bad management is not "punished" it doesn't get less likely for it to happen again.


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03-30-2009, 04:55 PM
  #32
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I don't think any team would want to be named on this forum. That would be embarrassing.
You've said it a few times now and I don't get it. Why don't you just name the team? It's no biggy. Except for maybe 12-14 people nobody in Germany reads this forum.

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03-31-2009, 12:52 PM
  #33
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Maybe he thinks about Canadian players reading this thread.

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03-31-2009, 02:42 PM
  #34
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You've said it a few times now and I don't get it. Why don't you just name the team? It's no biggy. Except for maybe 12-14 people nobody in Germany reads this forum.

Over 700 views in the last week on this thread so there must be more than 12 interested hockey people on this site. The purpose of this thread is to expose poorly managed hockey clubs and to congratulate well run clubs. The team referred to cannot be named unless it's backed up by a news article or comes directly from an affected party and not just 3rd party hearsay.

Maybe you can clarify the situation in Deggendorf? Have players been payed since December? Is the club having financial problems heading into next season or is everything back to normal?

Agents, players and club personnel come to sites like this for information. Trust me, no team will want their team named here in a bad way.

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04-02-2009, 01:36 PM
  #35
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The Nürnberg Ice Tigers are apparently saved from insolvency. A yet to be named oil and gas corporation or gas station chain joined the sponsor pool. So I will be able to watch DEL Hockey near my hometown in the 2009/10 season after all.


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04-03-2009, 01:32 AM
  #36
harry 93
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Maybe he thinks about Canadian players reading this thread.
I know a couple of players and they talk. A lot. Just take a random import player from your team and take a look at his Facebook friends. Should help convincing you.

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04-03-2009, 06:51 AM
  #37
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I know a couple of players and they talk. A lot. Just take a random import player from your team and take a look at his Facebook friends. Should help convincing you.
Why are you telling me? That's obviously what I meant.

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04-03-2009, 08:09 AM
  #38
harry 93
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Why are you telling me? That's obviously what I meant.
Because the indicates that you're being sarcastic !?!

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04-03-2009, 11:46 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by HockeyInsider87 View Post

Maybe you can clarify the situation in Deggendorf? Have players been payed since December? Is the club having financial problems heading into next season or is everything back to normal?
I don't think I can clarify a situation here because I'm not sure there is a situation to be clarified. According to what I know (what I read in newspapers) there's no reason to believe players haven't been payed.

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04-03-2009, 02:00 PM
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Krefeld reported today that they broke even this season.

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04-07-2009, 09:53 AM
  #41
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I don't think I can clarify a situation here because I'm not sure there is a situation to be clarified. According to what I know (what I read in newspapers) there's no reason to believe players haven't been payed.
My information is pretty reliable. Are you sure that the players on Deggendorf got paid in full? My info is that they never got paid since December or at the very least were very late in paying. Do you have new sponsors or an owner with deeper pockets for next season. This kind of treatment of players has to be avoided. They are professionals that should be treated that way.

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04-16-2009, 09:40 PM
  #42
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No reply Dfire on players getting paid in Deggendorf or not?

I received a message today that the same team alluded to in the ESBG 2 earlier in this thread supposedly with one of the biggest budgets in the league and located in the south is again late in paying their players for April. Does this team's owners not care what players think of them or realize how fast the word spreads on facebook and msn between players in pro hockey? Late pay every month, hmmmmm, team failed to meet expectations or keep any of their imports for next season. Wonder why? They did get the best goalie in the league though and that should help them win more games next season. I hope he asked for his $$$$ in advance.


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04-17-2009, 05:30 AM
  #43
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No reply Dfire on players getting paid in Deggendorf or not?
I think I did reply a few posts earlier. I think they are getting paid. I'm sorry I can't give you more specific information but I'm just not an "insider" such as yourself.

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04-26-2009, 07:49 PM
  #44
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According to two reliable sources via conversation on Facebook the SERC Wild Wings have been late every month in paying their players this past season. The players are still waiting for their April 1st paycheck while the team is still signing many high priced players that followed their new coach from the bankrupt Bad Tolz team.

I would not post this info if I was not 100% sure it was accurate information.

By being late with player paychecks it makes you wonder how the Wild Wings can get any new players to sign with them let alone top players. I will post when and if the players get paid. I asked my contact to let me know.


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04-30-2009, 09:14 AM
  #45
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Bietenheim Steelers need 1.5 million more euros added to their budget, a likely move the the Porche Arena in Stuttgart and 2/3's vote of current DEL teams to get their promotion to the DEL.

Kassel Huskies have lost a major sponsor and need at least 1 million euro to maintain their DEL program to the current standard.

Schwenningen Wild Wings players have still not received their April 1st paycheck. Not sure if this team is on stable financial ground or not.

Frieberg are apparently improving their arena which should help them be a good stable franchise in the ESBG.

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04-30-2009, 01:53 PM
  #46
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I've been told players are being paid in fruit and vegetables...although the apples are green and very bitter....

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04-30-2009, 05:42 PM
  #47
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Schwenningen Wild Wings players have still not received their April 1st paycheck. Not sure if this team is on stable financial ground or not.
Schwenningen has been rather stable since they went bankrupt in 2003 (and were kicked out of the DEL and down to the 2. Bundesliga) but they've been a big spender for the past two seasons. It worked out in 07-08 (4th place and a run to the semi-finals) but not last season (8th place and out in the pre-playoffs). Their attendance numbers suffered accordingly so I guess they missed their revenue goals. If that's the case, the salaries you mentioned will likely have to be paid from next season's budget. This can take a few weeks or even months until the next round of sponsor payments trickles in.

But that's just my outsider take, based on what usually happens every summer in the German minors. Clubs get very grumpy if you openly question their budgeting and/or economic competence.

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05-01-2009, 08:32 AM
  #48
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Schwenningen has been rather stable since they went bankrupt in 2003 (and were kicked out of the DEL and down to the 2. Bundesliga) but they've been a big spender for the past two seasons. It worked out in 07-08 (4th place and a run to the semi-finals) but not last season (8th place and out in the pre-playoffs). Their attendance numbers suffered accordingly so I guess they missed their revenue goals. If that's the case, the salaries you mentioned will likely have to be paid from next season's budget. This can take a few weeks or even months until the next round of sponsor payments trickles in.

But that's just my outsider take, based on what usually happens every summer in the German minors. Clubs get very grumpy if you openly question their budgeting and/or economic competence.
Thank you for the information. If they were only late in paying in April your reply would make more sense but they were late every month. Were they still paying players for the 07-08 season or something? Teams should not make commitments they can't honor.

The least the Wild Wings Managment should do is contact each player and explain their situation and when they can be expected to get their pay. My understanding from facebook conversations is that they have not done this. I'm told the players were frustrated all year with half the team upset at the firing of the first coach who happened to be let go early in the first year of an expensive two year contract. Maybe this had something to do with them not having a great year. Seems from reading a lot of the signings that they are big spenders again. Just hope these new players realize they might not get their pay until 2011 or 2012!

Do you see the Steelers playing in Stuttgart in the DEL?

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05-01-2009, 01:13 PM
  #49
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Thank you for the information. If they were only late in paying in April your reply would make more sense but they were late every month. Were they still paying players for the 07-08 season or something? Teams should not make commitments they can't honor.
Yeah, that sucks. It's not like they (for the most part at least) deliberately delay payments or try to swindle players out of their money. But profit margins are so small and budgets so tight in the minors that they sometimes simply cannot pay on time. Still, it shouldn't happen. Especially not all season long. And from a team playing in one of the most affluent regions of the country.

Quote:
The least the Wild Wings Managment should do is contact each player and explain their situation and when they can be expected to get their pay. My understanding from facebook conversations is that they have not done this. I'm told the players were frustrated all year with half the team upset at the firing of the first coach who happened to be let go early in the first year of an expensive two year contract. Maybe this had something to do with them not having a great year. Seems from reading a lot of the signings that they are big spenders again. Just hope these new players realize they might not get their pay until 2011 or 2012!
So far they've brought in a new coach and two foreigners from Bad Tölz, one of whom (Steve Silverthorn) was one of the best goalies in the league last season. They also lost a few high-priced players so business as usual I'd say.

As for the new players, there will always be North Americans who will give it a try. They can still earn a lot more here than in the ECHL. When you have an endless source of import players like that you can afford to manage them like that, I guess. It's also a two-sided sword. There are enough players fooling their clubs, demanding trades mid-season because someone else offered them a couple hundred bucks more, or negotiating with rival clubs while the season is still underway and then coasting through the rest of the year once they got their new contract with the other club secured. There are unprofessional attitudes on both sides.

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Do you see the Steelers playing in Stuttgart in the DEL?
He, that's like asking me for next week's the lottery numbers. I'd say no, at least not permanently. Here's the current situation:

The Steelers (after years of choking despite super-expensive teams) finally won the league title, now they want promotion to the DEL of course. However the DEL is at 16 teams (their self-imposed max) and one of the current clubs needs to leave the league to make room for the Steelers. Bankrupt Duisburg (most likely) and troubled Kassel (possible) are the best bets for that. Yet if they both leave, some of the bigger DEL clubs might prefer a league of 14 and deny Bietigheim promotion.

Which would be legal because the Steelers' home arena does not meet DEL standards (too small) and the other DEL clubs would have to vote for making a temporary exception for Bietigheim (needing a 3/4 majority - unlikely but not impossible). The Steelers have applied for promotion (deadline was yesterday) and suggest that they could play at least some home games in Stuttgart or even nearby Heilbronn to appease the league.

But a new, DEL-ready arena would have to be built in Bietigheim within a couple of years, and so far there are no definite plans for that. From what I've heard, Steelers fans vehemently oppose a permanent move to Stuttgart (where the Porsche Arena still has no anchor tentant). On the other hand, the DEL prefers new teams in big cities like Stuttgart, Munich or Dresden. No decisions have been made yet about where Bietigheim plays next season.

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05-07-2009, 12:58 PM
  #50
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Thanks Burgs. I read in the paper that Duisburg have asked to be relegated to the ESBG. Do you think this is a financial decision? Has their owner been losing money with his team in the DEL? I know they have not done well and seem to self distruct every year. Must be another poorly run club.

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