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EDM-CAL prospects game

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09-14-2004, 04:09 AM
  #1
Dr_Gonz0
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EDM-CAL prospects game

For you Flame's fans that missed out, it was a good game with CAL coming out on top 5-4.


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=103233

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09-14-2004, 04:47 PM
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Yea, check out the Oilers board.. alot of goodstuff on the game.. even on flames prospects!

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09-14-2004, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by chriss_co
Yea, check out the Oilers board.. alot of goodstuff on the game.. even on flames prospects!
Not really sure I understand your comment about 3/4 of the guys being tough guys/fighters when Bellemare was the only pure enforcer we iced last night.

Are you just ignorant about these guys or what? You were way off with that comment.

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09-14-2004, 09:40 PM
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I guess I'm a little annoyed with some of Sutter's draft tendencies... eg drafting guys like Tardiff, Donally, Prust instead of guys like Boyd, Seitsonen

guys that have real offensive flare and talent... it just seems when you look through our organization you see a lack of offensive skill when that is something that needs to be addressed on our team

instead, we perenially see 3rd/4th liner guys come through our system (exception when Button was GM and you saw guys like Taratukhin, Zainullin, Trubachev, Lombardi entering the organization)

i guess thats what im a little bitter about.. and this squad had very little offensive talent other than 3-4 players

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09-14-2004, 09:43 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriss_co
I guess I'm a little annoyed with some of Sutter's draft tendencies... eg drafting guys like Tardiff, Donally, Prust instead of guys like Boyd, Seitsonen
Huh???

Sutter drafted both Boyd and Seitsonen.

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09-14-2004, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Huh???

Sutter drafted both Boyd and Seitsonen.
I think he means he's going more for toughness at the draft than pure skill.

Which may be true, but some of the 'tough' kids have some soft hands.

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09-15-2004, 08:05 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriss_co
I guess I'm a little annoyed with some of Sutter's draft tendencies... eg drafting guys like Tardiff, Donally, Prust instead of guys like Boyd, Seitsonen

guys that have real offensive flare and talent... it just seems when you look through our organization you see a lack of offensive skill when that is something that needs to be addressed on our team

instead, we perenially see 3rd/4th liner guys come through our system (exception when Button was GM and you saw guys like Taratukhin, Zainullin, Trubachev, Lombardi entering the organization)

i guess thats what im a little bitter about.. and this squad had very little offensive talent other than 3-4 players
Well, if makes no sense to draft all high offensive players. Look at the makeup of any team in the NHL. They have 3-4 offensive players and the rest are grinders. Wow, that is the same makeup of the Flames prospects that JUST played. They have 1/2 dozen of scorers and than some good tough grinders.

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09-15-2004, 10:07 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriss_co
I guess I'm a little annoyed with some of Sutter's draft tendencies... eg drafting guys like Tardiff, Donally, Prust instead of guys like Boyd, Seitsonen

guys that have real offensive flare and talent... it just seems when you look through our organization you see a lack of offensive skill when that is something that needs to be addressed on our team

instead, we perenially see 3rd/4th liner guys come through our system (exception when Button was GM and you saw guys like Taratukhin, Zainullin, Trubachev, Lombardi entering the organization)

i guess thats what im a little bitter about.. and this squad had very little offensive talent other than 3-4 players
Did you ever consider that Sutter was balancing out the system by drafting some types of guys that Button hadn't been concentrating on? I'm pretty sure they still have guys like Taratukhin, Trubachev, etc in their plans.

And what makes a guy like Zainullin more of an offensive player than a guy like Tardif? Just because he's Russian? Answer me that. Obviously you haven't seen Tardif much as his best attribute is probably his shot. And he's probably more purely offensively skilled than Seitsonen as well.

And why if you are bitter about us drafting less purely offensively skilled players would you resort to describing them as "tough guys/fighters" when they clearly are not? You really don't seem to have seen many of these guys and seem to be making generalizations based on whether the kid is North American born or European born.

Being bitter doesn't excuse being ignorant about these kids. But it's true, our organization will likely avoid the typical soft, skilled euro type. Not sure why'd you'd have a problem with that as Sutter did quite well last year with Sutter players and it's obvious that one-dimensional forwards don't have a place on our team. But I still think that overall you underrate some of the skill and scoring touch of some of the guys drafted in the past two drafts. And your comment us about having a lot of tough guys/fighters in the system is just uninformed and incorrect.

And as I said in the other thread, it would be foolish to judge our entire system based on this rookie camp as some of our highest picks, highest upside prospects and most purely skilled prospects were not attending because they are in college or europe.


Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher: 09-15-2004 at 10:16 AM.
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09-15-2004, 10:27 AM
  #9
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Sorry, as a Detroit fan we have the opposite problem. We draft pure skill euro players and no tough guys. I would love to have your problem

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09-15-2004, 11:33 AM
  #10
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And we are gonna win 3 stanley cups in a 4 year period. Dion Phanuef and Robyn Regher, and Jordan Leopold will be nominated for the Norris Torphy in the same year also.

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09-15-2004, 01:28 PM
  #11
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I gotta agree, FDW, it's an ignorant view to expect Sutter to draft guys that don't fit into his system. And his system does not equal a lack of skill, because just look at the line-up, there are skilled guys, and skilled guys that Sutter himself has acquired, just because there tough as well doesn't make them worthless.

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09-17-2004, 12:03 AM
  #12
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I attended the game, and only four players impressed me.

I had seen Boyd play before, so his three goal performance was nice, but I saw nothing new. He's got a helluva work ethic, never gives up, and has an offensive flair, although his WHL numbers haven't yet backed that up.

Prust, I was extremely impressed with. I think he's set to light up the OHL this season, although I hope he does it with his gloves on. I'm sure he can handle himself, but he's more valuable on the ice for two minutes then he is in the box for five minutes.

Tardif played extremely well. Of the players I hadn't seen play, he was easily the best, and I have/had his offensive skills underrated. He works just as hard as anyone out on the ice, but still adds a dimension of offensive talent, something that the organization lacks, to a certain extent.

Krahn came into the game halfway through a blowout, and kept the club cool. The Flames actually turned on the jets after the first period, but it wasn't until Krahn was in net that they actually played with confidence. I think that's the biggest mark of a quality goaltender.

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09-22-2004, 12:54 PM
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Well in that game the Flames I beleived did have a coupel pretty tough guys dressed but we cant get around that.

Tough guys dressed were Bellemere (enforcer in the Q), Pardy (tough guy in Q) and Donally (tough guy in OHL), Harvey(tough guy out of OHL). Out of those 4 only Bellemere is truely and enforcer but I am sure Pardy and Donally can through the knuckes if the situation requires though they mainly are just there to bang bodies and be that physical depth element in a game. I think Harvey is alittle scrapper but he's purely cruiser wieght division.

Prust is a pretty tough guy though he is not a fighter. I guess he's like Tucker in a sense he will drop teh gloves but he also has skill and whatnot. Dont know why he dropped them with Henly as Prust is by no means a heavey wieght.

Tardiff was in the top 10 for goal scoreing when he was drafted so he obviously has some finishing skills. His stats this year took a dive but the Petes lost alot of good players. Thoguh Tardiff I guess can be clumped in that "Power Forward" class. If you dont think Power Forwards ahve much skill than you arent gonna think highly of a guy like Tardiff, Donally, Chucko, Nystrom, Moss, McConnell and Prust as they all play a relative power game with of course different degrees of skill set.

Personally I love Power Forward type players. man they rock. Well there really good if they have a good playmaker on the line or just someone on the ice who can pass or shoot.

I tihnk the Flames future team is gonna be hell to play against. Hopefully they dont shoot themselves in the foot by takeing to many penalties.

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09-22-2004, 03:20 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Huh???

Sutter drafted both Boyd and Seitsonen.
Sorry for not responding earlier... didn't realize my comments made such a stir


on this response, i meant I think Sutter should be drafting guys more like Boyd and Seitsonen.. and less guys like Prust and Donally

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09-22-2004, 03:20 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Aaron Vickers
I attended the game, and only four players impressed me.

I had seen Boyd play before, so his three goal performance was nice, but I saw nothing new. He's got a helluva work ethic, never gives up, and has an offensive flair, although his WHL numbers haven't yet backed that up.

Prust, I was extremely impressed with. I think he's set to light up the OHL this season, although I hope he does it with his gloves on. I'm sure he can handle himself, but he's more valuable on the ice for two minutes then he is in the box for five minutes.

Tardif played extremely well. Of the players I hadn't seen play, he was easily the best, and I have/had his offensive skills underrated. He works just as hard as anyone out on the ice, but still adds a dimension of offensive talent, something that the organization lacks, to a certain extent.

Krahn came into the game halfway through a blowout, and kept the club cool. The Flames actually turned on the jets after the first period, but it wasn't until Krahn was in net that they actually played with confidence. I think that's the biggest mark of a quality goaltender.
well that's not too bad considering I would say that these were 4 of our only true 'prospects' playing in the game (nothing against the other guys I guess, but most are likely career journeymen so I'm glad to see that if some guys were sticking out it would be these 4)

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09-22-2004, 03:26 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
Well, if makes no sense to draft all high offensive players. Look at the makeup of any team in the NHL. They have 3-4 offensive players and the rest are grinders. Wow, that is the same makeup of the Flames prospects that JUST played. They have 1/2 dozen of scorers and than some good tough grinders.
I didn't say draft all high offensive players

What I would like to see in our system is the exact opposite of what we have right now. Right now we have 1-2 highly offensively skilled players (your prototypical go to goal scorer) in our prospects (that have NHL qualities in them). Probably 1/4 of the prospects have offensive flare and the other 3/4 are more of the grinder nature.

In my opinion, Id be more happy with 3/4 of players will speed and offensive talent and then have 1/4 of players of the grinding nature. (this was what Button was actually doing to our system).

Now.. why do i want this?? well, im sick and tired of the flames always straining to score goals.. until lombardi and kobasew where were our offensive forward prospects?? why do you think the flames have always been near the bottom of goals scored?? is this something we have to live with?

my theory is it starts in your developing system.. obviously, the more offensive minded players in your farm, the higher chances of having players graduate to your team that can contribute offensively

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09-22-2004, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Did you ever consider that Sutter was balancing out the system by drafting some types of guys that Button hadn't been concentrating on? I'm pretty sure they still have guys like Taratukhin, Trubachev, etc in their plans.
I liked Button's draft plan.. in fact, if it weren't for his drafting of guys like Lombardi and kobasew (and adding offensive flares in leopold etc) our team wouldn't have scored enough goals to make the playoffs (once you get in, everything changes)

And there is nothing wrong with having guys like taratukhin and trubachev in the system.. except we need more!! in my opinion, trubachev won't make the NHL and this is natural.. but to have higher percentages of having skilled players come through the draft, you have to draft MORE players of that nature

Quote:
And what makes a guy like Zainullin more of an offensive player than a guy like Tardif? Just because he's Russian? Answer me that. Obviously you haven't seen Tardif much as his best attribute is probably his shot. And he's probably more purely offensively skilled than Seitsonen as well.
No.. being Russian/European doesn't mean you are more offensive than a Canadian.. i never mentioned that before

how is zainullin more offensive?? speed.. puckhandling skills... offensive vision

tardif.. well... u said his shot.. thats nice but is he geared to be a player like nemo/nilson or is he geared to be like langkow/reinprecht etc..

Quote:
And why if you are bitter about us drafting less purely offensively skilled players would you resort to describing them as "tough guys/fighters" when they clearly are not? You really don't seem to have seen many of these guys and seem to be making generalizations based on whether the kid is North American born or European born.
I am not making generalizations based on where a kid is born or where he develops.. don't know where you came up with that...

and wow.. talk about taking words literally... 'tough guys/fighters'... how would you like me to call them?? power forward? would that make you more happy? need i teach you about connotations vs denotations??... i have a certain opinion about them and so i use adjectives that fit my view of them.. sorry if that doesnt exactly fit your description

Quote:
Being bitter doesn't excuse being ignorant about these kids. But it's true, our organization will likely avoid the typical soft, skilled euro type. Not sure why'd you'd have a problem with that as Sutter did quite well last year with Sutter players and it's obvious that one-dimensional forwards don't have a place on our team. But I still think that overall you underrate some of the skill and scoring touch of some of the guys drafted in the past two drafts. And your comment us about having a lot of tough guys/fighters in the system is just uninformed and incorrect.
Sutter did well last year yes... but lets not forget that 3/4 of the team was built by button... who made a valiant attempt of increasing the team speed and skill

why am i bitter? because thus far (THUS FAR!! its too early!) Sutter is moving away from that to guys with size and grit. Its his philosophy.. which i respect.. but my opinion is that we will run into the same problems of not having enough players with the ability to score consistently at an NHL level

Quote:
And as I said in the other thread, it would be foolish to judge our entire system based on this rookie camp as some of our highest picks, highest upside prospects and most purely skilled prospects were not attending because they are in college or europe.
I agree... i know that not all of our prospects were at the camp... but i do know which prospects we have in our system and their style of play.. i also know the tendencies that Sutter likes as well as how other teams draft players... and thats how i formulate my opinion

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09-22-2004, 03:48 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kruezer
I gotta agree, FDW, it's an ignorant view to expect Sutter to draft guys that don't fit into his system. And his system does not equal a lack of skill, because just look at the line-up, there are skilled guys, and skilled guys that Sutter himself has acquired, just because there tough as well doesn't make them worthless.
I did not say that tough guys are worthless.

My view is that your NHL team needs a balance between grit and skill... compare our team to other teams in the league.. where do we stand in terms of a skill to grit ratio?? its quite low... and need i remind u guys that we did lose the cup to a more highly skillled team?

i'm looking at the prospects in our system and i agree we need guys like yelle but we also need guys like iggy... and taking into account the graduating rate of players from the farm to the NHL club, we don't have enough offensively skilled players in our system to maintain the level of skill we have on our team

that is why i think we need to draft more 'skill' players... guys like chucko (has the potential)... guys like hogg (fast speedy guy.. maybe too small for NHL.. but why not draft more guys with his offensive package?? one of them will turn into that datsyuk)

my opinion is we need more.. it never hurts to have more

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09-22-2004, 03:54 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by chriss_co
on this response, i meant I think Sutter should be drafting guys more like Boyd and Seitsonen.. and less guys like Prust and Donally
Huh? Prust might actually be more skilled than Seitsonen. I see more similarity between Prust and Seitsonen's styles than I do between Boyd and Seitsonen or Prust and Donally so your groupings make absolutely no sense to me.

And you don't think the Flames need players to fill all the roles on a hockey team? You think they should only draft guys with an offensive bias? I think Sutter would disagree, we need powerforwards, we need role players, etc in addition to the skill guys. I think it's quite the fanboy viewpoint to expect that everybody we draft will be a top two skill forward.

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09-22-2004, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher
Huh? Prust might actually be more skilled than Seitsonen. I see more similarity between Prust and Seitsonen's styles than I do between Boyd and Seitsonen or Prust and Donally so your groupings make absolutely no sense to me.

And you don't think the Flames need players to fill all the roles on a hockey team? You think they should only draft guys with an offensive bias? I think Sutter would disagree, we need powerforwards, we need role players, etc in addition to the skill guys. I think it's quite the fanboy viewpoint to expect that everybody we draft will be a top two skill forward.
Fine.. my groupings dont make sense to you.. but they make sense to me

And yes we need team roles!! read my post above.. my opinion is that we have our role players filled... we, however, dont have enough skilled guys

And its because i understand that not everyone or even 10% of the players that we draft will turn into NHL players that makes me formulate the opinion that we need to draft MORE skill forwards... if we draft only 5 skilled forwards, maybe only 1 will develop into that role... so if we draft 10 skilled forwards, maybe 2 will develop into that role... its a percentage thing

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09-22-2004, 04:33 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by chriss_co
And its because i understand that not everyone or even 10% of the players that we draft will turn into NHL players that makes me formulate the opinion that we need to draft MORE skill forwards... if we draft only 5 skilled forwards, maybe only 1 will develop into that role... so if we draft 10 skilled forwards, maybe 2 will develop into that role... its a percentage thing
Usually the guys with the highest upside go in the earliest rounds. And surprisingly enough you seem to be complaining mostly about 4th rounders or below.

And 10% would be a horrible drafting percentage. Scouts would probably consider 3 average or better players in one draft year to be a success or about 33%. If we're drafting at 10% the whole scouting staff needs to be sacked.

Bottom line is the Flames are trying to get NHLers out of the draft. And they are trying to get players that play a Sutter style. If you have a problem with that philosophy you probably shouldn't follow Flames prospects too closely or pick a team that has a GM with a different philosophy. Until we see how Donally and Prust turn out it seems very premature to say we shouldn't be drafting players like they are. Especially when guys like Seitsonen and Boyd haven't proven anything more.

But overall I still think you are basing your opinion too much on numbers and aren't really taking into account that guys who are known for being gritty and non-stop workers could also have some skill. Any expectation that the Flames will draft pure skill guys who do not try their hardest or play soft is completely unrealistic.

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09-22-2004, 05:34 PM
  #22
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how did regehr, cunning, cracknell, and palin look ?

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09-22-2004, 08:35 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
how did regehr, cunning, cracknell, and palin look ?
Not good, not bad. Only Flames prospects that stood out where Boyd, Prust and Krahn. Despite the score, the game was rather one sided for about 2/3s. Then the flames dominated about 1/6 of the game with about 1/6 of the game being even.

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09-22-2004, 09:52 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Not good, not bad. Only Flames prospects that stood out where Boyd, Prust and Krahn. Despite the score, the game was rather one sided for about 2/3s. Then the flames dominated about 1/6 of the game with about 1/6 of the game being even.
I'd have to agree with almost all of that.

One player that stood out to me before Boyd's natural hat trick was Tardif, though. He played exceptional I thought, throughout the entire game.

Regehr played decent. He wasn't anything spectacular, but he also wasn't a liability out on the ice.

I noticed Cracknell out on the ice a few times. His skating seemed choppy at best, although he did display decent hands from time to time out on the ice.

Of Cunning and Palin, I don't remember much. Cunning was wearing a letter, but Palin, I just cant remember his game for the life of me, sorry.

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09-25-2004, 07:34 PM
  #25
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cool guys, thanks...

that's how regehr is, nothing spectacular, but reliable and safe.. same with palin so it makes sense you don't remember him. you only remember him in chippy games ..

cracknell sounds like cracknell i guess, good work ethic though, same with cunning

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