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It's the Rangers' fault!!!!!!! is what someone has said, i dont fully agree

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09-24-2004, 12:11 PM
  #51
PhillyNucksFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Then why ask us why he would not sign back with NJ?

"Of course, I do realize he brings much more to the table than the scoring stats. but 8M?"

Again, we are not setting the market for him. The $8m # is a number that BOTH Toronton and NJ were willing to pay for him (and actually I believe that the Toronto # was $8.5m). So obviously, Holik had other suitors that were willing to pay him that much money. So how exactly is that the fault of the Rangers?

"WHY the heck would some broker A buy MSFT $$ at $40 per share with such P/E earnings and the rest of the market and just shoots up and pays $40 +/- $1 for it. "

Because he believes that he can make a profit on it. Those that do not believe so, do not invest. And NHL players are NOT the stock market. You cannot possibly compare shares of Microsoft to Bobby Holik.

"This is all about market setting, not about "I didnt tell others to follow", and this, is, no offense, a junior highschool argument. "

Setting the market for a financial investment and setting the market for hockey players are apples and organges. You cannot equate the two. However, if you really want to, what buisinessman would spend an amount on an investment, knowing that spending said amount would put his company in the red? Not many. If you really want to make correlation between the real business world and the NHL, that's it where you can look.

"Your guess is just as good as mine, because I am not Holik and I dont know why the hell he didnt take the $9M or something that fat L or fat Q offered"

Again, then why ask us why he would not resign in NJ?

"I am a Sakic fan and believes he is worth every single penny. I dont see what is your point of trying to argue this one, because I am not."

Then why ask why Kariya should not expect Sakic money? You asked and I gave you the reasons.

"They may seek, but they may sign for less of what they seek for! Agree!? It is the mentality here, not the end result."

And that makes the players different from you and I how? Yes, they are making millions, however, wouldn't you try to maximize your value? I see it everyday. When $$$ speaks, people walk. Although the pay scale is entirely different, you would have hard-pressed to try to prove that the playes "mentality" is different from any of us when it comes to making money.

"Why people are following? Such as who?"

If you claim that the Rangers have set a bar, then obvioulsy there are people following. If that is not what you are saying, then how can it possibly be the fault of the Rangers? If teams ARE NOT following, then they are making their own decisions with their own money. And, as such, are SOLELY responsible for their own states.

Most of your arguments, I have already, more or less, answered already. Read the posts. i am too lazy to type such long response again. I claim?? Read again, the article claimed and I agreed with its claim. If you dont agree and want to make a big deal out of it? email the source and complain.

Stock and players are similar in terms of how thie value appreciate and depreciate in terms of the performance (financial vs on/off ice performance). It fluctuates like stock as in if a player plays well in any way, his value goes up. No? If a company is doing well and making money, its stock going up, no? How they are not similar? (I am not saying the same, but Similar!? ) If a player does not perform, doesnt his value drop ?? If a company is not making money, doesnt the stock price drop?

I dont know, but from my experience in this sector, player value and stock value fluctuate in similar patterns and that is exactly what i used stock as "EXAMPLE".

Also, dont mis-quote me. use "[quote] and [*/quote] function. I didnt say "who people are following, such as who", and quote the whole thing.

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09-24-2004, 12:17 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
It's irrelevent what Sakic received simply because he had another team willing to step up for his services to that amount. Kariya did not and that's the point that is being missed. 2 teams publically thought that Sakic was worth 7 mil per, that cannot be said for Kariya. He had limited negotiating leveage in terms of comparables and did the only thing that he could do and that was to withhold services.

couldn't quote ur msg, but I try to be in the same order as you.

Ducks point: yes, completely agree, and that is both of ducks and kariya agent fault in that case along, I dont know whats being argued here as I never said duck or kariya were right or anything along the line. In no way kariya got what he asked in sakic $, as i have pointed out numerous times already here!


I see where you are coming from on the george (baseball) and all the tactics i mentioned was FYI only. Sure, any baseball forum you go to? We can discuss what yank should have done and what sox would have done. I get your point though.

Your last point seems to be repetative of what you said in the 1st point, so my response was above these lines.

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09-24-2004, 12:19 PM
  #53
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PhillyNucks...

you're forgetting one huge lesson in the world of stocks...and that is supply and demand, which is an offshoot of performance. There was a demand by a few teams for Holik's performance, and there was only one Holik. His 'stock' rose because of performance, but ultimately supply and demand predict what he'd trade at. Holik didn't go to Jersey because of money, obviously. But, as a UFA, didn't the Rangers have the right to offer more than Jersey and Toronto? Was it outrageously more? I don't think so. Did the Rangers set the bar for 'checking' centers? Well, not really. XYZ checker can ask for all they want, but if there's nobody out there paying, he ain't getting it. Everybody can cry about the Rangers ruining the cost structure of the league, but it's all hooey. But that's one team among many that drove up salaries, both for RFAs and UFAs. There's no 'they started it...'. What, all the other owners decide to succumb to the whims of all the players as a result?

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09-24-2004, 12:21 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
You say the Rangers drove up the price on numerous players and you give me two players!?! Thats' numerous?

So, you are going to keep playing the Sakic card, OK. That does nothing to show why the Cats gave Bure 10M, the Caps gave Jagr 11M, or the B's gave Lapointe 5M.

To Holik. Is he worth 9M? Yeah he is because someone is willing to pay him. Holik was a UFA. That maens that any team that wants him can make an offer. When more than one team bids on a player, the salary goes up. The Rangers and the Devils and the Leafs all drove the asking price (or should I say the offering price up). The Devils were willing to 8 per and the Leafs 8.5 per. The Rangers offered 500k more which is chump change when you are talking in the area of 9M per. And if you want to blame anyone for Holik, blame Fat Lou. He could have signed him for 5M per and didn't. He then bid 8M. But that's surely the Rangers' fault too.
Read my post and then find where i said the point is to investigate who started the whole thing, not to investigate every single player who signed to a contract that they do not deserve. OK?

Keep playing the Sakic card?? Do you not read posts before you respond?? Read again and come back and tell me how I kept using Sakic card!? Sakic was the very first example and reference used in the article. Please go back to post #1 and check the link and read what the article said.


The only legit point i see in this message of yours was the bidding war point. I agree and you are correct that this particular signing (Holik) was the possible result of a bidding war between t.o, nj, nyr. I am not saying it is not, so, i guess you can say all 3 of them are at faults, but that is hardly the point, is it?

Read the article, and tell me what the title says.
http://sports.sympatico.msn.ca/Home...itemid=12157013

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09-24-2004, 12:26 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNucksFan
Read my post and then find where i said the point is to investigate who started the whole thing, not to investigate every single player who signed to a contract that they do not deserve. OK?

Keep playing the Sakic card?? Do you not read posts before you respond?? Read again and come back and tell me how I kept using Sakic card!? Sakic was the very first example and reference used in the article. Please go back to post #1 and check the link and read what the article said.


The only legit point i see in this message of yours was the bidding war point. I agree and you are correct that this particular signing (Holik) was the possible result of a bidding war between t.o, nj, nyr. I am not saying it is not, so, i guess you can say all 3 of them are at faults, but that is hardly the point, is it?

Read the article, and tell me what the title says.
http://sports.sympatico.msn.ca/Home...itemid=12157013
It says "Sorry, the web page you requested cannot be found."

If the point is to investigate who started the whole thing (for whatever that's worth), you cannot later say, "the Rangers drove up the price on numerous players".

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Old
09-24-2004, 12:28 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
you're forgetting one huge lesson in the world of stocks...and that is supply and demand, which is an offshoot of performance. There was a demand by a few teams for Holik's performance, and there was only one Holik. His 'stock' rose because of performance, but ultimately supply and demand predict what he'd trade at. Holik didn't go to Jersey because of money, obviously. But, as a UFA, didn't the Rangers have the right to offer more than Jersey and Toronto? Was it outrageously more? I don't think so. Did the Rangers set the bar for 'checking' centers? Well, not really. XYZ checker can ask for all they want, but if there's nobody out there paying, he ain't getting it. Everybody can cry about the Rangers ruining the cost structure of the league, but it's all hooey. But that's one team among many that drove up salaries, both for RFAs and UFAs. There's no 'they started it...'. What, all the other owners decide to succumb to the whims of all the players as a result?

An intelligent post, and I will just add to your points here.

What you said is only 90% true in my opinion. The supply and demand chart, mind I add, in this case, the market is not solely a free one as the supply is inelastic, and that is why when you say, when the performance of this stock/player drives up, the cost of this stock/player also goes up, because the demand is on the upward trending, to an objective cost ceiling.

Yes, the demand also rises, which increases the cost intersection and increases the cost, and in this case, the bidders were nj, t.o, ny. Now, in my last couple messages, i did say i agree with the bidding war point, so I am not too sure what have I missed.

If you read my messages, I never used absolute words, nor have I blamed all fault on 1 source. I spreaded them. However, again, I agree with the article http://sports.sympatico.msn.ca/Home...itemid=12157013, that said, the Sakic, kariya, lindros deal ruined the last CBA, and Sakic just happens to be the first one, chronologically.

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09-24-2004, 12:31 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
It says "Sorry, the web page you requested cannot be found."

If the point is to investigate who started the whole thing (for whatever that's worth), you cannot later say, "the Rangers drove up the price on numerous players".
http://sports.sympatico.msn.ca/Home...itemid=12157013

Sorry, something wrong with my copy paste. If this doesnt work, Post #1 has it. I just copied from there.

OK, then I will not say numerous, as it is too indefinitive and creates a blurry grey zone for debate. I will say drove up the price of top end players such as Sakic, who was making 3M and 7M the next (heck he deserved maybe, in todays standard), and a checking line C in Holik. (I dont care what you say, but Holik is known for his 2 way game and $8M for him?!? I just personally dont think so)

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09-24-2004, 02:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyNucksFan
what are you talking about? i dont think i refered to Carolina/Fedorov "incident"



Dont change topic as I was saying, like the article suggested, the very first deal that breaks out this outrageous signings of huge contracts. Leave alone on WHY Kariya wants to demand Sakic Money.. Your point here is hardly related to what the article is suggesting. The article is merely suggesting that what Rangers did jump started all these huge signings, and it used kariya as one of the examples to demonstrate how and the aftermath.



56???? Was that last year??? Why do you look at last year's salary and not the season he has had before he signed??
I believe 01-02 was his last season with the devils and he had a very good year of 25/29 of 54 points and +/- 7... Please correct me if I am wrong, you believe that this player, for what he does, is worth $8+ M/year!?!?!?!!?!? Please, I have had read a lot of debates before here on whether Holik is worth 8M, and quite frankly, the general response was.. "Holy ****, rangers wayyyy overpaid this guy".

Good luck making an argument on Holik is worth $8M/year!

NJ and T.O wanted to pay him 8M??? If NJ offers the same contract, why didnt Holik take it to stay? Please, Dont tell me because Rangers play exciting hockey and NJ is dull. (they are though). NJ obviously offered less at the time. I am not sure if you are familiar with the negotiation management. Rangers drove up his value by putting out rumours of signing him at 8M and that was one of the reasons why others would even consider offering 8M.. if Rangers offered him at say, 5M, do you honestly believe T.O or NJ would offer him 8M still!?!?

Actually, four teams drove up Holik's price including the great Lou. Flyers, Leafs and the Stars all wanted him. At the end, it came down to the Devils and Rangers. Holik opted for the Rangers because of the signing bonus.

But in reality, the real reason he signed here was to stick it to Lamoriello for how nasty his arbitration hearing was the previous summer. Holik never had any intention of re-signing with the Devils after that. Lamoriello compared him to some awful players and the war started there. Holik thought he could sign here and win. That was his mistake. He didn't realize how bad a situation it was.

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Old
09-25-2004, 01:37 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True Blue
Why stop there? Why not have an America where there is a limit on what people make? Sure, let's limit how much money people can earn. Let's have an economic system that will never allow for a person to embetter themselves.
How would you feel if you were involved in a job, where you would have no say as to how much you should be paid? Your salary would be dictated by the government, who would ensure that you are making a "reasonable" amount and not a dime more. What's even better, is that you could go to a competitor and STILL only be paid the exact same amount becuase the government has deemed it reasonable.
I highly doubt that many people would be willing to go through that. So why should NHL players? They have the right to make as much money as they can. The same exact right that you and I have. I certainly have no intention of busting my rear-end, only to be told that I cannot make more money. So why should that be any different from what the NHLPA wants?
I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic, but I wouldn't mind it all if some of the nations wealth was redistributed among the less fortunate.

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09-25-2004, 05:22 PM
  #60
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Someone asked about the Carolina/Federov incident, saying they didnt remember. Carolina signed him to an offer sheet of $3MM per season plus an incentive bonus of $25MM if they made the conference finals. Carolina did this thinking they didn't have a shot of doing so even with Federov. Detroit matched and the Wings won the Cup. It was believed that Karmanos made the offer to spite Illitch. Boston's signing of Lapointe for $5MM was Jacobs getting back at Illitch for Illitch calling him a cheap *******.

As for Holik, NJ offered $8MM per year, Toronto offered $8.5MM, and the Rangers $9MM. All 3 teams were overpaying, so to put the blame solely on the Rangers is stupid.

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09-25-2004, 05:32 PM
  #61
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I think those blaming it on the Rangers are a VERY small percentage and not even worth engaging in a serious argument.

It's the fault of several teams specifically, not just one.

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09-25-2004, 05:54 PM
  #62
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The system was seen as a huge victory for the owners at the time. Well, the have's (in terms of money) did what they felt they needed to do in order to make their teams better and used their resources.

What I find funny about the Gratton thing was it seemed like Tampa was the Flyers REAL AHL-affiliate for the past 10 years, yet Lightning won the Cup before the Flyers (excluding the mid-70's before the Lightning existed).

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Old
09-27-2004, 08:35 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marconius
I'm pretty sure you're being sarcastic, but I wouldn't mind it all if some of the nations wealth was redistributed among the less fortunate.
I was being sarcastic, however as a capitalist, I would never stand for 1) my salary being "redistributed" or 2) having my salary "capped". Limiting earnings is not what this country is about. I make donations throughout the year, I do not need someone taking 30% of my hard-earned salary and redistributing it.

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09-27-2004, 08:49 AM
  #64
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Tb...

your salary is redistributed. The more you make, the greater percentage (up to a point, and thereafter a flat amount based on each increase) that is taken away for redistribution (which includes paying for services). Caps are crazy, but like it is in many union jobs (and the NHL players are part of a union), there is a cap - heck, I think in many instances there's one rate. But of course the difference beteen this union and others is that these guys are the attraction, the revenue producers, and without them, the revenues do not flow through the gates.

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