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Old
05-08-2009, 07:45 PM
  #51
mercury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
Is bill elliott really the answer in the Flyers goal? I really do not see how this helps either team. The Senators give up good prospects for one good prospect, and the Flyers are pretty much built to win now. Only way giroux gets traded is if someone takes briere with him.
Now, I disagree here. We have other assets that could be traded with Giroux in a bigger package for, say, Luongo.

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05-08-2009, 07:53 PM
  #52
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Neither team does this. It's an ovepayment from the Ottawa's perspective. Elliot is not the answer to the Flyers goaltending woes. Volchenkov and the 1st are great and may have more value than Giroux at the moment, but Giroux could be the Flyers best forward in short order. I don't think you deal someone like that away.

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Old
05-08-2009, 08:26 PM
  #53
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It's clearly massive overpayment by Ottawa here and I don't hear a single Ottawa fan that would support this deal.

It's also fairly clear that Philly fans feel strongly about their young prospect and his potential. Kinda seems like no one wants this trade to happen, other than the few Philly fans willing to grudgingly lose a favoured prospect for a large overpayment.

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Old
05-08-2009, 08:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by powerthirst View Post
It's clearly massive overpayment by Ottawa here and I don't hear a single Ottawa fan that would support this deal.

It's also fairly clear that Philly fans feel strongly about their young prospect and his potential. Kinda seems like no one wants this trade to happen, other than the few Philly fans willing to grudgingly lose a favoured prospect for a large overpayment.
Giroux has a vision for the offensive game and is something special, something that a very select few in the NHL have ever had. There are players that are much more talneted than Giroux but his vision is something special. When you have players like Gagne and Briere saying thow amazed they are with his playmaking ability and that they had better just keep their stick on the ice when out there with Giroux becasue he'll get it on your stick then I think that's pretty high praise.

This trade really doesn't solve the issues for each team. the only way that Philly comes out ahead in this trade is if the player they pick with the #9 pick turns out to be a great 1st line forward/dman. The Sens would be much better served to hold on to their players and figure on the guy they pick at #9 being a great 1st line forward/damn for them for years to come. It just doesn't make each team better enough for them to part with these assets.

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Old
05-08-2009, 09:56 PM
  #55
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The reason that I would not do this is simple. Look back at the GDT's from the playoff sries. The Pen's fans routinely said they were most scared of Giroux-- of any player on our team (Richards, gagne, carter, Lupul, Hartnell, Knuble, Briere....). He was the fastest player, had great vision, laid some hits, made amazing passes, and was even willing to fight.

I do not think this is a good proposal from either side

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Old
05-08-2009, 11:35 PM
  #56
Hale The Villain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Giroux has a vision for the offensive game and is something special, something that a very select few in the NHL have ever had.


That is the biggest homer statement I have ever seen. The guy got picked 22nd overall and isn't considered the best prospect in the world yet you say his vision is one of the best in the game's history? Forget that he isn't even in the NHL full-time yet with this amazing vision, forget about guys like Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard and Mario Lemeiux who had 10x the vision Giroux has and will have 10x the career Giroux will have. That statement is pure B.S and I lol at it big time.

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Old
05-08-2009, 11:43 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensational Spezza View Post


That is the biggest homer statement I have ever seen. The guy got picked 22nd overall and isn't considered the best prospect in the world yet you say his vision is one of the best in the game's history? Forget that he isn't even in the NHL full-time yet with this amazing vision, forget about guys like Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky, Gordie Howe, Maurice Richard and Mario Lemeiux who had 10x the vision Giroux has and will have 10x the career Giroux will have. That statement is pure B.S and I lol at it big time.
he's not the one comparing giroux to HOF'ers, and i'm pretty sure the rest of the paragraph, which you seem to have ignored, makes your interpretation completely irrelevant.

All he said is that giroux has a very impressive vision, the kind that should make him a great first line center some day. Think spezza at his age, but without all the defensive doubts and Jacques Martin limiting his ice time. Flyers fans here (and many non-flyers fans, including myself) believe that Giroux will turn into an all-star first line center, the kind of player spezza is still trying to be right now.

While, as a sens fan, i believe that package is too much to give up for one player who may or may not make it, I do believe that if Giroux develops the way i expect him to over the next 3 years, it would be worth it. Of course, making a trade dependent on the development of only one player would be very stupid.

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Old
05-08-2009, 11:51 PM
  #58
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Giroux does have amazing vision....very Forsberg-esque in the way that he creates the plays on the ice....He passes the puck to nowhere but someone appears suddenly where the puck has been passed to.

He's almost a warlock...

But seriously, he does have amazing vision, and incredible confidence for rookie his size playing along with so many other offensive juggernauts (even though he never gets to play with Richards,Carter,etc.)

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Old
05-09-2009, 12:01 AM
  #59
Gil Gunderson
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Fix a minor issue by worsening a major issue.

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Old
05-09-2009, 01:30 AM
  #60
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Ottawa says **** no.

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Old
05-09-2009, 05:40 AM
  #61
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How about Carter and Van Riemsdyk for Karlsson?

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Old
05-09-2009, 05:50 AM
  #62
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No way Ottawa gives up that pick. It would mean we sucked all season for NOTHING! AND our best defenseman?? LOL

& our best goaltending prospect??

For Giroux, I would give up the 1st round pick alone. & maybe elliot. since we'll have Auld to back up Leclaire.

But even that is questionable, since the jury is still out on leclaire being a success

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Old
05-09-2009, 05:51 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Tooth Grin View Post
How about Carter and Van Riemsdyk for Karlsson?
haha. No doubt. I don't know if that work work out with the cap though

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:07 AM
  #64
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There are 2 reasons Flyers fans don't want to do this trade.

1) We give up Giroux, and we think there is a very strong possibility we can make the team better without trading Giroux.

2) We are not looking to the future. We want to win now. The 1st and the goalie prospect are incredible value for the future, but for right now not so much. Its basically trading Giroux for Volchenkov. Thats what it comes down to. For next year, and probably the year after that, its Giroux for Volchenkov. We don't want to build for the future we want to add the pieces necessary to be a stronger cup contender next year and the year after and this trade doesn't allow us to do that. It would be impossible to pass up if we were looking to build a team in a couple years, but we are not, we are trying to win now.

I'm not saying Giroux is more valuable than the offer, I'm saying the offer doesn't suit the Flyers need for players to make an impact now. Its like if you needed help and you had a choice, an average doctor or the best doctor in the world. The average doctor can help you know, the best doctor in the world can't see you for a year. Theres blood squirting out of your head right now, who are you gonna choose?
Hope that makes any kinda sense lol.

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Old
05-09-2009, 09:56 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candiria92 View Post
There are 2 reasons Flyers fans don't want to do this trade.

2) We are not looking to the future. We want to win now. The 1st and the goalie prospect are incredible value for the future, but for right now not so much. Its basically trading Giroux for Volchenkov. Thats what it comes down to. For next year, and probably the year after that, its Giroux for Volchenkov. We don't want to build for the future we want to add the pieces necessary to be a stronger cup contender next year and the year after and this trade doesn't allow us to do that.
1) I don't support the OP's trade proposal.

2) Ottawa has Spezza, Heatley, Alfie... and there are no 2nd liners (ES 2nd liners/PP 2nd unit players) that I would trade Volchenkov for from the perspective of the piece of **** goaltending we've received from our goalies for the past 2 seasons. So what was your point about Philly going into next season with more offensive depth and worse goaltending?... Because I could have sworn that you just told us that a 50 point player is worth more than the leading shotblocker (per game) in the NHL in front of **** goaltending.

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Old
05-09-2009, 10:06 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercury View Post
It is not rubbish. Look at the last ten drafts, and the players taken at #9.

2008 - Josh Bailey
2007 - Logan Couture
2006 - James Sheppard
2005 - Brian Lee
2004 - Ladislav Smid
2003 - Dion Phaneuf
2002 - Petr Taticek
2001 - Tuomo Ruutu
2000 - Brent Krahn
1999 - Jamie Lundmark
What you should also consider though is what the drafts were projected as. 08, 03, and 01 were all considered very strong drafts heading in. 01 didn't really live up to the hype, 03 far exceeded expectations (as Philly fans know quite well), and 08 looks to be great based on the number of 1st rders who turned pro right out of the draft.

Now look at the players taken in those years vs players in the weak drafts (99 and 00 being way below average years, 07 was considered weak - though I think its proved decent to this point). The 9th pick seems to be a pretty good reflection of that draft year, leading me to believe in a draft of this strength you're probably getting someone pretty good.

OTT doesn't do this deal, but it sounds like neither does Philly (based on situation - win now - rather than value).

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Old
05-09-2009, 10:24 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshot723 View Post
Giroux is untouchable to the Flyers, this won't happen
Lets be serious here. That is overpayment by the Sens. Giroux is awesome, but he can be traded if someone offers more than he is worth and the offer contains the exact parts the Flyers are looking for plus a top 10 pick. That said I REALLY dont want to trade him and I think we can still address our needs without having to trade him. For example if we were to trade Briere to FLA for JBo's rights, and sign him. Then trade Lupul Jones and a late pick to Minny for Harding we could have a better young goalie and a much better stud dman, while losing lesser parts.

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Old
05-09-2009, 10:28 AM
  #68
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If giroux is a sure thing than so is Elliot. And if Giroux has potential so does Elliot.

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Old
05-09-2009, 10:33 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
If anyone here watched the Pens/Flyers series, they will see why the Flyers won't do this. Giroux was our best player by far- better then Carter, better then Richards, and better then Gagne.

Giroux is special and is a player a team has to always be afraid of. He plays great 2-way hockey, and his vision is absurd. He see's guys and makes passes that only a slect few can
Yea you really need to watch him play. He is not a Knuble player that crash and bangs and leaves you wondering how he got 30 goals. He has a skill set that very evident, but so what a lot of players have stick handling moves etc that dont work out. The thing he has over those guys is vision/hockey sense. The guy screams it. The true stars in the NHL have it. They know whats going to happen before it does. I think he has even been quoted as saying that he sees the play happen before it starts. Add to that he is a bull dog al la Praise, he never gives up. The biggest knock on him is his size, which will obviously get better.

I can understand people saying that he is getting over valued because he has played 40 games. But you really have to watch him play, you will see what he brings. Kind of like when OV or Crosby has the puck, people get excited when Giroux gets it. Not the same level of expectation, but everyone in stands gets excited, you hear little kids say Giroux has the puck! He is going to be a star, not a superstar, but a star player.

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Old
05-09-2009, 11:35 AM
  #70
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i thought about trying to explain the on-ice vision I see in Giroux but decided it would be too long. I decided to shorten it to this.

When Forsberg came to Philly I was amazed at his vision. He was paired with Gagne and as good as Gagne is, you could just see that he simply didn't "see" the game on the same level as Forsberg. Forsberg you have to hold the puck and hold the puck and hold the puck until Gagne "saw" the opening that Forsberg was trying to create by drawing the defense to him. Gagne got better at being able to read whe openings that Forsberg was creating but he ALWAYS trailed the play. FORSBERG has exceptional vision. The only one I ever saw a lot of who was better was Gretzky. I was a kid when Orr played so I really can't comment on his vision as it wasn't something I looked for when I was still a kid.

Giroux seems to have vision very similar to that of Forsberg. Giroux just seems to be thinking 2-3 steps ahead of most other people. My son is a Pens fan and I get to see a lot of Crosby. Sid is flat out the best player in the game today but even he doesn't have the vision that Giroux does. Sid doesn't NEED to see things 2-3 step ahead of everyone else, he is so damned talented that he can play in the here and now and just make it up as he goes and STILL be the best player on the ice. On pure natural ability alone he can carry the puck through 2 dmen and either put the puck in the net himself or pass it to an open teammate because everyone is panicing and going to Sid.

I think the major difference between Gretzky and Crosby is the difference in their on ice vision. Sid just doesn't have the vision I saw in Wayne (and neither did Mario). Mario was probably more talented that Wayne (though not by very much) but Wayne just had unreal vision on the ice.

If Crosby had Girouxs on ice vision, my god that would be scary. It's bad enough having to go against a "visionly hampered" Crosby but my god, could you imagine him even better??? Maybe it wouldn't make much difference because right now there are few players in the NHL who AREN'T a step behind Sid but damn I think I'd like to see it even if it were only for 1 day. Personally, if I were the pens I'd offer up anything but Crosby, Malkin and Fleury to get Giroux. Him with Crosby would be scary. Those 2 together, my god I'd hate to have to play against them. I think they'd be laughing at the entire rest of the league scoring would come so easy for them as a pair. You wouldn't need another wing to help out much so I'd add protection in the form of say Donald Brashear. He's actually not a bad player and though he'd be about a billion times below Crosby and Giroux, he could wreck anyone who looked cross-eyed at either of them.

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Old
05-09-2009, 11:47 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfredsson View Post
If giroux is a sure thing than so is Elliot. And if Giroux has potential so does Elliot.
Not really...goaltenders are much MUCH different from forwards. Especially when it comes to "sure things"

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Old
05-09-2009, 11:48 AM
  #72
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I'd keep Giroux.

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Old
05-09-2009, 12:14 PM
  #73
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Roof Daddy View Post
What you should also consider though is what the drafts were projected as. 08, 03, and 01 were all considered very strong drafts heading in. 01 didn't really live up to the hype, 03 far exceeded expectations (as Philly fans know quite well), and 08 looks to be great based on the number of 1st rders who turned pro right out of the draft.

Now look at the players taken in those years vs players in the weak drafts (99 and 00 being way below average years, 07 was considered weak - though I think its proved decent to this point). The 9th pick seems to be a pretty good reflection of that draft year, leading me to believe in a draft of this strength you're probably getting someone pretty good.

OTT doesn't do this deal, but it sounds like neither does Philly (based on situation - win now - rather than value).

This is a very good point. This years #9 pick would be about a #5 or #6 in a typical draft class. Even though the #9 pick this year should be an excellent player, I still think it will be hard for him to surpass Giroux. the Flyers got lucky and found a real diamond in the rough when we drafted Giroux.

Here's the thing that I love about Giroux. He went undrafted in juniors. He wnet to a tryout and was signed as a FA. He really only has 2 natural abilities and that's his vision and his speed. This kid has worked his butt off to prove himself every step of the way. He was constantly being dismissed by others because of his size and what not. I see some people on here saying that him spending the first half of this season was good for him because he got to develop his defensive game while in the AHL. Well, that's just wrong. Go back and read what his coach said about him last year in his last year in juniors. People questioned his defensive play the previous year and Giroux took it upon himself to become better and in his last year in the Q, his coach said he was their best defensive forward. Giroux was their #1 PKer for a forward. In the half season he spent up with the Flyers I never once saw a game where he wasn't the hardest working player on the ice for either team.

This kid always gives everyhting he has when he plays hockey. He's proven himself to be very coachable and a hard worker. He's overcome adversity through hard work. His ceiling continues to go up for that reason.

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Old
05-09-2009, 05:18 PM
  #74
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I have to chime in here as a Flyers fan. We all love Giroux. The #9 could be a good pick, or great, or be a bust. Anton would certainly help our d and goals against(shot blocks). Elliott...meh...could be good...but your own team got Leclaire...so even they are not sold on him as their future#1. And with the Flyrers, the cap is an issue. That is another reason why Giroux is so valuable to us. Huge up[side with little cap. In fact...most of us would rather deal Gagne for this deal than Giroux...that's how much he is regarded.

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Old
05-09-2009, 07:20 PM
  #75
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I see it as:

Volchenkov for Jones
Elliot, 1st for Giroux. Thanks but no thanks


Last edited by Spence334: 05-10-2009 at 01:10 PM.
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