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Did we rush O'Byrne into the NHL?

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Old
05-10-2009, 12:31 AM
  #51
vokiel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
O'byrne can't play in this league.

Please trade him within the division.
He can play better than many other... (including Valentenko and Emelin )

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05-10-2009, 12:33 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
He can play better than many other... (including Valentenko and Emelin )
Based on?

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05-10-2009, 01:01 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
Based on?
He's playing in the NHL, the other 2 aren't. Really, do I need to doodle something here?


Last edited by vokiel: 05-10-2009 at 01:17 AM.
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05-10-2009, 01:16 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
Exactly! exactly what we said with Hainsey, Beauchemin, Streit (average on D) ... are players are gaining experience here and succeeding elsewhere because people can't live with the fact that it takes stars to develop stars and it takes time to develop project and where you draft a guy from high school like Obyrne... you need lots of time.
Beauchemin had a glorious total of 1 game with the habs so I wouldn't really use him as comparison and as far as Hainsey goes, he's still -infinity, so I really don't know how valuable those comparisons are. Streit is probably your best point of reference.

The problem is most people are tired of that, which axes patience. I'd rather draft players with high skills and then patch up whatever they are missing than draft damn projects all the time and hope they become the next Bobby Orr. (WTF)

I don't think we drafted O'Byrne thinking he was going to be top pairing and that's where the comparisons fall flat. Somewhere fans forgot that Obi was just supposed to be our #4 or #5 dman and that was just bad for him.

It's all about expectations here.

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05-10-2009, 09:23 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by didouche View Post
I ask the question after reading an interview with Ken Holland

http://www.freep.com/article/2009050...+a+dream+life+

He talks about Jonathan Ericsson:
So when Babcock told him this past off-season he wanted Jonathan Ericsson on the roster in Detroit, Holland told the coach no because he didn't think the young defenseman was ready.
"I guess I would say to you: This is the toughest league in the world. And if you get here, and you start making mistakes, you lose your confidence or the coach loses confidence in you. There is a lot of rehabilitation that needs to go on.
"The longer you can be away from this league and keep the player improving, the more prepared he is when he gets here. I mean, you are talking about a guy (Ericsson) that was a winger until he was 18 years of age. He is learning to play defense."
Hmmm. I think being "ready" to crack the Wings defense and the Montreal defense are two entirely different things. Holland has the luxury of picking and choosing. But the confidence issue point is well taken

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05-10-2009, 11:35 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
He's playing in the NHL, the other 2 aren't. Really, do I need to doodle something here?
Tavares wasn't playing in the NHL this year, would you say Begin is better than he is?
Jagr was playing in the same league has the Tank and Emelin, so it's not like it's an Amateur league.

O'Byrne couldn't clinch a regular spot on our Defense even when it was completely battered. So I wouldn't be too quick on saying he's better than Valentenko or Emelin.

I haven't giving up on O'Byrne, I think he'll be good for us down the line but your theory makes no sense.

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05-10-2009, 11:46 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Tavares wasn't playing in the NHL this year, would you say Begin is better than he is?
Jagr was playing in the same league has the Tank and Emelin, so it's not like it's an Amateur league.

O'Byrne couldn't clinch a regular spot on our Defense even when it was completely battered. So I wouldn't be too quick on saying he's better than Valentenko or Emelin.

I haven't giving up on O'Byrne, I think he'll be good for us down the line but your theory makes no sense.
No I'm not quick on saying he's better, He ACHIEVED better period. That's a fact with a 3 years contract as main highlight. Valentenko couldn't clinch a regular spot and Emelin never even bothered.

I was just answering this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick Nick View Post
O'byrne can't play in this league.

Please trade him within the division.
Not like I'm starting one of those speculative arguments about which average defenseman is better. Since Valentenko and Emelin will probably never play in the NHL, I don't really care to be honest

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05-10-2009, 11:48 AM
  #58
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Honest to god, I think Holland was just dodging a bullet on this one to explain why Ericsson is playing in the A, while Chelios who sucks monkey balls these days is still on the team. It's cute and all, but he didn't describe a secret formula for success here or anything.

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05-10-2009, 11:49 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Tavares wasn't playing in the NHL this year, would you say Begin is better than he is?
Jagr was playing in the same league has the Tank and Emelin, so it's not like it's an Amateur league.

O'Byrne couldn't clinch a regular spot on our Defense even when it was completely battered. So I wouldn't be too quick on saying he's better than Valentenko or Emelin.

I haven't giving up on O'Byrne, I think he'll be good for us down the line but your theory makes no sense.

I think what he meant is that Obyrne went from a US Colledge to the AHL then to the NHL. He as played close to the equivalent of a full season which is not that much. During that period he had moments where he looked like a solin #5 stay at home Dmen who can skate with the puck where other moments he looked like a total bust.

We have not seen 1 game from Valentenko and Emelin ... perhaps they can do better then Obyrne, perhaps not... Only time will tell.

Young players often have problem with inconsistency, it's common, it's Obyrne's case... Take a the good plays from Obyrne and streatch it out to a full game, that'w what we should see down the road.

If you expecting the next Bobby Orr you will be dissapointed, if you are expecting the next Komisarek you will also be dissapointed, if your expecting Obyrne to play to his potential two years from now (given good coaching) then you migth have pretty good chances of seeing this.

It's not always a question of age, its a question of experience playing at a high level. Some need very little experience to excell some need more. The same as any other job out there.

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05-10-2009, 11:58 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
I think what he meant is that Obyrne went from a US Colledge to the AHL then to the NHL. He as played close to the equivalent of a full season which is not that much. During that period he had moments where he looked like a solin #5 stay at home Dmen who can skate with the puck where other moments he looked like a total bust.

We have not seen 1 game from Valentenko and Emelin ... perhaps they can do better then Obyrne, perhaps not... Only time will tell.

Young players often have problem with inconsistency, it's common, it's Obyrne's case... Take a the good plays from Obyrne and streatch it out to a full game, that'w what we should see down the road.

If you expecting the next Bobby Orr you will be dissapointed, if you are expecting the next Komisarek you will also be dissapointed, if your expecting Obyrne to play to his potential two years from now (given good coaching) then you migth have pretty good chances of seeing this.

It's not always a question of age, its a question of experience playing at a high level. Some need very little experience to excell some need more. The same as any other job out there.
Yep, good summary.

Good average 4-5 dman. With experience he could be considered a solid 4. Right now he's a fringe dman, but it doesn't mean we rushed him in any way.

Here's a good parallel: Would you say we rushed Lapierre because he can't clinch the second centre position. Of course not, that's just not what most fans expected of him.

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05-10-2009, 12:06 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
No I'm not quick on saying he's better, He ACHIEVED better period. That's a fact with a 3 years contract as main highlight. Valentenko couldn't clinch a regular spot and Emelin never even bothered.
Valentenko went to KHL because he said it was a tougher league than AHL. So he'd learn more.
Emelin got screwed by his agent and wasn't told Mtl had made an offer before he signed.
He mentioned on numerous occasions that he wants to come here.
What's a fact? That O'Byrne signed a contract??..Ya so? His contract was up. Unless we wanted to lose our most ready defensive prospect for nothing, we had no choice but to sign him.
I fail to see how this proves he's BETTER than the 2 others.

More ready doesn't mean better. You have to get that through your head.

Maybe he is indeed better, maybe he isn't. You don't know and neither do I. We'll see in the future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Not like I'm starting one of those speculative arguments about which average defenseman is better. Since Valentenko and Emelin will probably never play in the NHL, I don't really care to be honest
Oh the irony...


Last edited by Kriss E: 05-10-2009 at 12:12 PM.
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05-10-2009, 12:10 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
I think what he meant is that Obyrne went from a US Colledge to the AHL then to the NHL. He as played close to the equivalent of a full season which is not that much. During that period he had moments where he looked like a solin #5 stay at home Dmen who can skate with the puck where other moments he looked like a total bust.

We have not seen 1 game from Valentenko and Emelin ... perhaps they can do better then Obyrne, perhaps not... Only time will tell.

Young players often have problem with inconsistency, it's common, it's Obyrne's case... Take a the good plays from Obyrne and streatch it out to a full game, that'w what we should see down the road.

If you expecting the next Bobby Orr you will be dissapointed, if you are expecting the next Komisarek you will also be dissapointed, if your expecting Obyrne to play to his potential two years from now (given good coaching) then you migth have pretty good chances of seeing this.

It's not always a question of age, its a question of experience playing at a high level. Some need very little experience to excell some need more. The same as any other job out there.
That was exactly my point.
We don't know how the others two will turn out, so to say O'Byrne is better than them is just foolish.
That's what I was responding too.


As for O'Byrne, I never expected more than a #4 D. I haven't been disappointed by him yet. He has 70 NHL career games and he's been in and out of line up throughout the year. It's part of his learning curve to have bad and tough games.
Like I said, Komi was even worse than O'Byrne when he started.
So, I'll be patient for another year or two.

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05-10-2009, 12:12 PM
  #63
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O'Byrne should be fine as a solid #5-6 sometimes in the next few seasons.
Look at Matt Walker with Chicago, he became a regular when he was 26.
I will be happy if O'Byrne play a 15 min to 18 min consistent, phsysical game and use his speed to get the puck out of his zone

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05-10-2009, 12:15 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Valentenko went to KHL because he said it was a tougher league than AHL. So he'd learn more.
Emelin got screwed by his agent and wasn't told Mtl had made an offer before he signed.
He mentioned on numerous occasions that he wants to come here.
What's a fact? That O'Byrne signed a contract??..Ya so? His contract was up. Unless we wanted to lose our most ready defensive prospect for nothing, we had no choice but to sign him.
I fail to see how this proves he's BETTER than the 2 others.

More ready doesn't mean better. You have to get through your head.

Maybe he is indeed better, maybe he isn't. You don't know and neither do I.
Oh who cares, bunch of excuses don't make it a necessary right. You're just speculating. I'm stating statistically O'Byrne achieved better and if I'm going to trade someone within the division because he can't play in this league as Slick Nick said, I'd rather trade someone who FAILED at making the league and bolted out or someone who never even tried. (regardless of the reasons)

That's the end.

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05-10-2009, 12:28 PM
  #65
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I think that calling our prospects up in down from the minors screws with their development.

Dago and Pac need two more years in Hamilton.

O'byrne keeps getting called up from Hamilton, then he ends up sitting in the press box for half the games, then he gets sent down. These constant changes really mess up a young player because he is forced to constanly alternate between two teams systems' and style of play.

Not to mention that all our AHL players like Pac, Dago, Weber, Stewart, O'byrne would get MUCH more ice time in Hamilton.

I hope we don't rush PK Subban.

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05-10-2009, 12:49 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Oh who cares, bunch of excuses don't make it a necessary right. You're just speculating. I'm stating statistically O'Byrne achieved better and if I'm going to trade someone within the division because he can't play in this league as Slick Nick said, I'd rather trade someone who FAILED at making the league and bolted out or someone who never even tried. (regardless of the reasons)

That's the end.
First off, I'm pretty sure Slick Nick was joking.

Second, I haven't speculated one thing. I kept saying we don't know.

You're the one speculating that O'Byrne is better. As you clearly said he was better than the two.

Again, it's not because O'Byrne played in the NHL that he's the better player. We'll have to wait and see

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05-10-2009, 12:58 PM
  #67
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Before O'Byrne made it to the NHL all reports were saying he was NHL ready and that he had nothing to gain from staying in the AHL, even Price said he was realy impressed by him during his time in Hamilton.

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05-10-2009, 01:12 PM
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I think that calling our prospects up in down from the minors screws with their development.
It doesn't screw with their development, it's PART of it.

You think every prospect comes up in NHL and starts playing well right away?..

Coming up and going back down is part of 99% of the prospects's development throughout the league.

It's like that for everybody except for superstars like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin..

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05-10-2009, 01:19 PM
  #69
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If O'byrne cam play as number 6 or 7 in the NHL, I would be satisfied. He doesn't gave more upside than that.

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05-10-2009, 01:27 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Habruti! View Post
He played better the Komisarek/Webber and not that far behind Hamerlik... He does not play big so his big body is not that needed. He will make a fine Dmen if he is groomed properly which is not necessarily the case...
I certainly hope you are right, I just don't think it's the case with him. I agree he has had certain games (very few) where I thought for a moment, ok he's understanding what to do, etc., but it's just a flash in a pan and he goes back to being horrible. I don't think he played better than Komi defensively (in that they were both very bad). I think our expectations for Komi made it look that way. I had very simple expectations for OB and he still let me down. I like the guy a lot, and I wish he was a presence, but from watching all this playoff hockey (we rarely get to see so many other teams and what makes them good, game after game, outside of the playoffs) it puts things into perspective. Is he good enough for OUR top six...unfortunately you can make that argument. I do however hope that the expectations for our D corps increase substantially.

It was Weber's only 2 playoff games and looking back, given he even scored an important goal (at the time), I'd say he handled himself very well and at least we know we have something great in him. I would cut him some slack compared to OB who's been given so many games, including after scoring into our own net.

I thought Hammrlik was pretty decent amongst the D given who he was paired with.

You're right about him not playing big, but then look at Gorges, he doesn't play with a big body, but he is effective with everything else so that he "plays big". Thing abotu O'byrne, and this is what the whole discussion is about, is that I don't think playing in the AHL has or will help him get to the level needed. I could be wrong, but from what i've seen, he's had enough experience here to know the pace, the game, what he's supposed to do, so that he might implement it. I think he can't get any worse, but I don't think we rushed him at all. He had a decent stint in hamilton. He seems too much like a "nice guy" to be effective in the way we want him to be (and from what I gather, that's what he is...a great team guy). Maybe in three years he'll pan out. I guess another offshoot of this is: do we have a D coach (wtf does Jarvis do anyway?) and does he TEACH the players what to do and how to improve. This might be important for him, instead of just giving him more games to figure it out.

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05-10-2009, 07:45 PM
  #71
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I certainly hope you are right, I just don't think it's the case with him. I agree he has had certain games (very few) where I thought for a moment, ok he's understanding what to do, etc., but it's just a flash in a pan and he goes back to being horrible. I don't think he played better than Komi defensively (in that they were both very bad). I think our expectations for Komi made it look that way. I had very simple expectations for OB and he still let me down. I like the guy a lot, and I wish he was a presence, but from watching all this playoff hockey (we rarely get to see so many other teams and what makes them good, game after game, outside of the playoffs) it puts things into perspective. Is he good enough for OUR top six...unfortunately you can make that argument. I do however hope that the expectations for our D corps increase substantially.

It was Weber's only 2 playoff games and looking back, given he even scored an important goal (at the time), I'd say he handled himself very well and at least we know we have something great in him. I would cut him some slack compared to OB who's been given so many games, including after scoring into our own net.

I thought Hammrlik was pretty decent amongst the D given who he was paired with.

You're right about him not playing big, but then look at Gorges, he doesn't play with a big body, but he is effective with everything else so that he "plays big". Thing abotu O'byrne, and this is what the whole discussion is about, is that I don't think playing in the AHL has or will help him get to the level needed. I could be wrong, but from what i've seen, he's had enough experience here to know the pace, the game, what he's supposed to do, so that he might implement it. I think he can't get any worse, but I don't think we rushed him at all. He had a decent stint in hamilton. He seems too much like a "nice guy" to be effective in the way we want him to be (and from what I gather, that's what he is...a great team guy). Maybe in three years he'll pan out. I guess another offshoot of this is: do we have a D coach (wtf does Jarvis do anyway?) and does he TEACH the players what to do and how to improve. This might be important for him, instead of just giving him more games to figure it out.

I sort of agree with pretty much everyyhing you say and more so towards Webber (I personally think he will evetually become a fixture on our blue line). I think that Gorges was a really good comparison... How more effective do you think Georges could be if he was 6'5? I think this is exactly how Obyrne can be.

When he was drafted he was a project ... If you look at Gorges stats you will see that he played close to twice the amount of games since he turned pro yet he is just starting to be effective (345GP for Gorges and 188 for Obyrne) that is a big difference and that is whithout looking at the amount of hockey they played in the junior ranks where one was in the WHL and the other in Cornell University.

To me this is what kills the development of our young guys, they do well in the AHL, we bring them in and at the first mistake they sit and loose valuable development time. Look at Weber we brougth him in and he lost some very valueable AHL playoff time and we played him for what two games out of 10?

Confidence means a lot when you start in the NHL, you need to feel you belong. It starts with the coaching staff and hopefully the next coaching staff will do a better job at it.

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05-11-2009, 12:20 AM
  #72
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He's playing in the NHL, the other 2 aren't. Really, do I need to doodle something here?
Great argument...

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05-11-2009, 06:18 AM
  #73
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3 years in college, 1 full year in the AHL. So 5 years before getting some games in the NHL and he's rushed? Geez, maybe he wasn't that great to begin with. But I could have understand the risk they took on him.

We'll see how his confidence will be next year. 'Cause it's impossible for a guy to looks like a destroyer in the AHL and to look like a softer version of Peter Popovic when he's up.

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